Why does London have higher PCN charges?

[menigma]

HI all,

 

I have been wondering about the thread title ever since the new parking rules came in on 31st March.

 

Why does parking on a double yellow line in London cost more in penalties than parking on a double yellow line, say, in Derby? £50 more on the higher tier.

 

You don't receive higher financial penalties on a fixed penalty notice if the offence occurred in London and there does not seem to be a higher tariff in court fines based on location, so why do PCN's seem to be different?

 

Apologies if this has been posted before, but I searched and found no hits.

[Rob S]

I've often wondered the same as to why you are penalised more for the same contravention if it is committed within one of the 32 London boroughs. It's not very fair at all. No doubt G & M will be along soon to tell us it is a fair policy to hit Londoners in the pocket harder.

[patdavies]

Somebody's got to pay for the bloody Olympics. :o

[menigma]

I find it impossible to understand the differences but am even more non-plussed that not only does London have higher charges, it also has an additional charge band.

[green_and_mean]

Not all London councils charge the same inner london tends to be in the higher bands outer councils the lower.

[menigma]

Not all London councils charge the same inner london tends to be in the higher bands outer councils the lower.

 

Well that makes it worse. So inner London is the highest, outer London lower and the rest of the country even lower. Do you happen to have an explanation or the reasoning for this?

[green_and_mean]

The bands are set by the Secretary of state the Councils then select which bands they wish to use, why they make their selection is probably down to several factors which could probably be found in Council meeting minutes.

[menigma]

Apologies M&G, my question wasn't clear. I mean't did you happen to have an explanation or reasons as to why the PCN rates are higher for London than the rest of the country.

[green_and_mean]

Becausethey are selected by different methods I guess London decided that the cost of parking illegally should be high enough to be a deterent. There is guidance from the secretary of state on setting the levels but cannot find it online at the moment. Below is the statute regarding the setting of levels from the TMA.

 

SCHEDULE 9 Civil enforcement: setting the level of charges

 

 

Part 1 Charges to which this Schedule applies

 

Charges to which this Schedule applies

 

1 (1) This Schedule provides for the setting of the levels of—

(a) penalty charges, including any discounts or surcharges,

(b) charges made by authorities under section 102 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (c. 27) for the removal, storage and disposal of vehicles found in areas that are civil enforcement areas for parking contraventions, and

© charges for the release of vehicles from an immobilisation device under regulations under section 79 above.

(2) References in this Schedule to “charges” are to those charges.

 

Part 2 Charges applicable in Greater London

 

Charges to be set by Transport for London or London local authorities

 

2 (1) It is the duty—

(a) of Transport for London, so far as relating to contraventions on or adjacent to GLA roads, and

(b) of the London local authorities, so far as relating to—

(i) parking places provided or authorised by such authorities, or

(ii) contraventions on or adjacent to roads other than GLA roads,

to set the levels of charges applicable in Greater London.

(2) Different levels of charges may be set for different areas in London and for different cases or classes of case.

(3) Before setting the level of any charges Transport for London must consult the London local authorities.

Supervisory role of Mayor of London

 

3 (1) Transport for London and the London local authorities must submit to the Mayor of London for his approval the levels of charges that they propose to set.

(2) If—

(a) Transport for London or the London local authorities fail to discharge their duty under paragraph 2, or

(b) the Mayor of London does not approve the levels of charges proposed by the London local authorities,

the levels of charges shall be set by order made by the Mayor of London.

Reserve powers of Secretary of State

 

4 (1) The following provisions apply where the Mayor of London—

(a) approves any levels of charges on a submission under paragraph 3(1), or

(b) sets any such levels under paragraph 3(2).

(2) The Mayor must notify the Secretary of State of the levels of charges so approved or set.

(3) The levels of charges shall not come into force until after the expiration of—

(a) the period of one month beginning with the date on which the notification is given, or

(b) such shorter period as the Secretary of State may allow.

(4) The Secretary of State may before the end of that period give notice to the Mayor of London that he objects to the levels of charges on the grounds that some or all of them are excessive.

If he does so those levels of charges shall not come into force unless and until the objection has been withdrawn.

(5) If at any time before the levels of charges have come into force, the Secretary of State considers that some or all of them are excessive, he may make regulations setting the levels of charges.

Those levels must be no higher than those notified under sub-paragraph (2).

(6) If the Secretary of State makes regulations under sub-paragraph (5) no further submission to the Mayor of London under paragraph 3(1) may be made until after the end of the period of twelve months beginning with the day on which the regulations are made.

Publication of levels of charges

 

5 (1) Transport for London and the London local authorities shall publish, in such manner as the Mayor of London may determine, the levels of charges set in accordance with this Part of this Schedule.

(2) The duty imposed by sub-paragraph (1) applies—

(a) to Transport for London so far as the charges relate to contraventions on or adjacent to GLA roads, and

(b) to the London local authorities so far as they relate to—

(i) parking places provided or authorised by such authorities, or

(ii) contraventions on or adjacent to roads other than GLA roads.

Discharge of functions by London local authorities

 

6 (1) The Secretary of State may make provision by regulations as to the discharge by London local authorities of the functions conferred on them by this Part of this Schedule.

(2) The regulations may provide for the functions to be discharged by means of arrangements under section 101 of the Local Government Act 1972 (c. 70) (arrangements for discharge of functions by local authorities) or in such other way as the regulations may provide.

(3) The regulations may make provision for continuing in force for the purposes of this Part of this Schedule any arrangements in force immediately before the commencement of this Part for the discharge of functions corresponding to the functions of London local authorities under this Part of this Schedule.

 

Part 3 Charges applicable outside Greater London

 

Charges to be set by enforcement authority

 

7 (1) Outside Greater London it is the duty of each enforcement authority to set the level of charges applicable in the case of contraventions for which they are the enforcement authority.

(2) Different levels of charges may be set for different parts of a civil enforcement area and for different cases or classes of case.

Guidelines given by appropriate national authority

 

8 (1) The levels of charges set by enforcement authorities under this Part of this Schedule must (subject to sub-paragraph (3)) accord with guidelines appended to an order made by the appropriate national authority.

(2) Different guidelines may be given for different cases or classes of case.

(3) An enforcement authority may, with the permission of the appropriate national authority, depart from any such guidelines.

Publication of levels of charges

 

9 An enforcement authority for an area outside Greater London shall publish, in such manner as the appropriate national authority may determine, the levels of charges set under this Part of this Schedule.

[Rob S]

If you get an FPN for speeding anywhere in the country it is £60 and 3 points. So why should Londoners be hit with higher penalties than the rest of the country? What logical reason is there for this?

[green_and_mean]

If you get an FPN for speeding anywhere in the country it is £60 and 3 points. So why should Londoners be hit with higher penalties than the rest of the country? What logical reason is there for this?

 

Penalty fares on public transport are not the same all over the UK is that unfair to? Speeding and parking fines are set differently as stated above different bodies decide on the level and they came up with a different figure. I'm sure if Police authorities set speeding fines they would vary also but as it is they are not. Why are prescriptions free in Wales yet not in England, when we all pay the same NI contributions? Life is not fair unfortunatly and there are many regional differences in both stautes and financial dealings.

[Rob S]

You can always rely on G & M to defend the decriminalised parking regime:rolleyes:

 

Let's take your "logic" and examine it.

 

Penalty fares on public transport vary across the country. Is that unfair? Yes it is.

 

Fixed penalty notices for speeding are set at the same level across the UK (at £60). Police authorities have nothing to do with setting the FPN rates so your comment here is as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

 

Bringing in prescription charges and comparing them with penalties received for parking infringements is a meaningless comparison. Is that the best you can do??

 

So it comes back to the original question.................why are PCN's charged at a higher rate in London compared with the rest of the UK? And don't insult everyones intelligence here by saying "life is unfair". If you don't know the answer you would do better to say "I don't know" rather than give us the BS that you gave us in your post at 21.08:rolleyes:

[patdavies]

So it comes back to the original question.................why are PCN's charged at a higher rate in London compared with the rest of the UK?

 

Why are people paid more in London (ie London weighting)?

[Rob S]

Why are people paid more in London (ie London weighting)?

 

To pay for Red Ken and his cronies!

[menigma]

Odd that some people have raised public transport. The fines are yet again higher in London than anywhere else. So yes, it is unfair.

 

It is irrelevent where you live or how much you earn. As the cost of living in London is higher than in the rest of the country, should that mean penalties are higher pro rata. That is nonsense. By that logic Manchester, for example, as a metropolis, should have higher penalties than Bolton, but it doesn't.

 

Thanks for the answers all, but no-one has managed to answer the question in my original post:

 

Why does parking on a double yellow line in London cost more in penalties than parking on a double yellow line, say, in Derby?

 

Just living in London is not an adequate reason.

[lamma]

"Because they can they do".

[bribri]

Maybe the cost of delays due to vehicles parked on DYLs is greater in London than elsewhere, or the cost of removal, or the wages of the PAs etc.

 

Lots of possible reasons.

 

How much are single bus tickets form around the country? In London it is £0.90 with an Oyster card. Is that fair (fare)?

[menigma]

Maybe the cost of delays due to vehicles parked on DYLs is greater in London than elsewhere, or the cost of removal, or the wages of the PAs etc.

 

Lots of possible reasons.

 

How much are single bus tickets form around the country? In London it is £0.90 with an Oyster card. Is that fair (fare)?

 

Sorry, but you have not listed a single reason why it should be higher.

 

Policeman are paid more in London to offset higher living costs, but fines don't increase if you are convicted in London.

 

Wages of most (I concede not all) PA's are paid by the contractor. By definition a commercial enterprise. A PCN should have nothing to do with a jobs salary.

 

Not sure what your point is on bus fares. The fare is for provision of a service and costs the same to everyone (with an Oyster) no matter where you are from. It does not increase based on location, unlike PCNs.

 

So, why are PCNs higher in London for the same contravention which took place in Coventry?

[lamma]

because they can - levels set by local councils.

 

there will be a spreadsheet or two with projected income etc etc..

[menigma]

because they can - levels set by local councils.

 

there will be a spreadsheet or two with projected income etc etc..

 

Which, since the 31st of March, they have been told not to use parking enforcement to raise money or set ticketing targets.

 

And because a council can set these levels, it is not an explanation as to why it is higher in London. Thats my question.

[lamma]

they have always been told that. and always stuck to the 'official line' that its not about revenue - yeah right.

 

sorry to tell you but there are new spreadsheets for the TMA 2004 that allow 'more detailed projections' of the effects of differential charging.

[bribri]

Menigma.

 

My first suggested reason was - perhaps the cost of delays due to parking on DYL is higher in London -

[menigma]

Menigma.

 

My first suggested reason was - perhaps the cost of delays due to parking on DYL is higher in London -

 

I just cannot see what the cost of delays has to do with a contravention of the Highway Code. If costs dictated penalty amounts then fines should be higher in London because policing costs are higher, but they're not.

[menigma]

they have always been told that. and always stuck to the 'official line' that its not about revenue - yeah right.

 

sorry to tell you but there are new spreadsheets for the TMA 2004 that allow 'more detailed projections' of the effects of differential charging.

 

I totally agree with your view. I have never bought the line about PCNs being there for road safety or not for revenue.

 

When you say there are new spreadsheets, can I specifically ask what you mean and are they available to view? I would like to see them.

 

Just for info, I e-mailed Ruth Kelly, our esteemed Minister for Transport, to ask for an explanation. I anticipate a reply in a few months !!

Edited May 7, 2008 by menigma
Unfinished Post

[lamma]

the Ministerial answer can be predicted rather easily I guess..

 

I specifically mean there are new spreadsheets as explained.

As its all financially motivated it is impossible to consider there not being spreadsheets. As for viewing - submit a request to your Council.