Hi Yeats, How are you doing with Amex? I'm interested to know whether or not they said there was anything on the back of this application form. My application form was for 2000 and they are saying there were Terms and Conditions on the back. Any info gratefully received. Thank you. DD

Hi BRW - hope you are getting this. As you will see from post 5 above I just don't think the front fits what they are saying was on the back. To explain I am using inches and centimetres. The front page measures exactly 8 inches from top to bottom. On the other side which is headed Conditions, the top half of the capital C of conditions is cut off as is the top of the little box showing the various rates of interest for the various cards. If you completed the capital C upwards it would be only two centimetres from the very top of the page. Surely no-one ever uses margins this tiny? If you drop the top of 'Conditions' down to say, one centimetre from the top of the page, the bottom line of the conditions would drop down to 8 and 1/2 inches, and that would also mean the last lines of print would be at the very bottom of the page with no margin underneath. I don't know how to challenge this. I'm sure if the T&Cs were overleaf on this it would have said it, in the same way it refers to the personal info paras being overleaf. There is another new thread which could also use your help and is a bit relevant to mine. Big Naughty has one of these 60-second application forms, later than mine, and they have sent him separate terms and conditions in reply to his CCA request. That's another reason I think my T&Cs were separate. I suppose I could always say I wanted to pop down to Brighton and actually see the document??? Thanks for all your help. DD

Hi BRW, I'm a little bit conscious of hijacking intree's thread here. Would you be kind enough to move to my thread which is Amex 60-second Application Form - 2000 Thank you. DD

Hi Big Naughty, One of the things I have learned in the 3/4 weeks I have been on this site is that the card companies in so many cases are clearly lying through their teeth about what you/we actually signed up for. I have seen so many threads where any old terms and conditions are supplied, apparently on the back of the original agreements, and in the case of CapOne they have actually sent someone here a supposed back page of an agreement for the early 2000s which is actually dated 2008!!!!! I'm very interested to hear that they are not sending you any apparent Terms and Conditions on the back of any of the three, and I have just noticed that the application dated 03/04 refers to the conditions on the back and front of the agreement, which is different to the other two. I hope someone with more experience than me can give you better advice. I'm sure they will. As you say, there are a lot of emotions here, and it's a real rollercoaster. Personally, I never thought I would be in this position, and I expect that goes for most of the other people here too. DD

Hi devilcouple69, Have you got anywhere yet? Or have they settled? If not, I'll tell you what I did with my auto gearbox which packed up, although the Renault contact may not be still there. In brief though my warranty had run out, the muppets at Customer Care don't know anything about the Sale of Goods Act, and if they have said they will pay something, they actually know there is a problem. They offered 50% but ended up paying the lot. DD

Hi Big Naughty, Not certain if I can be of any help, but like you I filled in the 60-second application form though mine was in 2000. I have a thread going and so does intree, and Scabhunter and BRW have both been very helpful. What is on the back of these applications/agreements they sent you? I'm trying to establish if what they have sent as being the back is accurate or not. Like my 60 second application form, yours is internally inconsistent - the Personal Info para on the front page refers to the paras overleaf. The Credit Agreement (which should have the word Card in it in any case) box just refers to the T&Cs being part of the agreement. Were they on a separate insert? in which case they are not included in the body of the agreement. Suggest you look at these threads which have much more very specific info from BRW/Scabhunter. If they did send you any backs can you scan them in and we can compare. I haven't got a scanner so haven't been able to scan in my form yet, but I've seen somewhere else that these forms are supposed to have reference numbers at the bottom which mine don't although yours do. Allied International Credit (AIC) are the nastiest bullies out there (or one set of them). They threaten you with everything: repossession, the lot. I was absolutely hysterical and suicidal after they contacted me and demanded almost £10,000 immediately. I offered about £800, all I could scrape together and they refused to take it and said it was the £10,000 or nothing. At that point I called CCCS who thankfully gave me a reference number. As soon as I gave them the number they backed off. Then several weeks later they rang up saying they would like to accept the £800. I told them it was too bad as I had paid something else. I also told them I had written to Amex for the CCA which arrived a few days later, and it is this that I am trying to work through at the moment. You'll find a lot about AIC on CAG. It was a terrific comfort to me to know that I was not alone in being seriously frightened and that so many people have told them to sod off. Good luck. DD

Thank you for that BRW. I'm certainly going to do this. I think I have almost all my statements somewhere!! I'm still trying to find out what was actually on the back of my 60 second application form. I've just been told that the front of the application is internally inconsistent - personal info box referring to para overleaf, but Credit Agreement referring to T&Cs being part of the agreement, no mention of overleaf at all, which really makes me think they were on a separate pamphlet. That is my missing link at the moment. I would so love to know that what they have sent isn't what it appears to be at all. Thanks for all your help and support here. DD

Hi Bungleboy, I am sure my Barclaycard is over 20 years old. I requested the cca on 11th November and just before Christmas I received the Barclaycard current terms and conditions. Have yet to reply to them. I think this would be a good idea for all cards if possible. At least it would indicate whether the companies are likely to have the originals or not. Happy New Year. DD

Try having a mixer with the second half, or I fear for your hangover!! Gotcha. It's the SI you are after and I think I only have the amended one. Happy New Year!!!!! Must go and eat - live in mad street where we all go out and light fireworks at midnight. DD

Dear Intree, I know exactly what you mean. One day life is fine and you can cope with your credit commitments, then other people let you down, you have family crises or tragedies, or lose jobs, and everything you thought was okay in your life has changed forever and everything is out of control. I agree: Life is a bitch (and then you marry one, says my gay friend, who of course never will ). Hang in there. It's become so apparent to me in the couple of weeks I have been on this forum that we are managing to laugh too, even when life is absolutely appalling. I hope 2009 is much better for you. DD xx

Try this link I found on Wikipedia. It says it's the original. I haven't read it all the way through, just remembered seeing a reference to it. http://www.fisa.co.uk/downloads/CCA%201974.pdf DD

Dear Padders, Congratulations on your win over Amex. I am just starting here and also have a 60-second application form. Today BRW pointed out that a good point is that it doesn't have the word 'Card' in the Credit Agreement ... box which hopefully will help. I have read all your thread but can't see (may have missed it) that there is a copy of the back of your agreement on your thread. When I asked for the CCA they sent the application form. The front referred to reading the Use of Information paragraph "overleaf", but when they refer to the T&Cs it just says they form part of the agreement, not that they are "overleaf" at all. I've also read that T&Cs should have a reference number in the bottom left hand corner but there isn't one. In fact I'm not certain that the back would fit on the front. Did you by any chance ever receive from Amex what was supposed to be on the back of the 60-second application form? I'd be so grateful for any help on this. Thank you. DD

Hi BRW, Thank you. There is no 'card' in either box! I always sleep on any letters, and I will definitely be careful in what I say. Anyway, I'll post on my own thread 'Amex 60-second application' exactly what I will be sending. I have the regs pages 12-22 in front of me to cross reference but hadn't even started. I'll see what else I can find. I may just keep it short and sweet. Since they sent it about a month ago I haven't heard from Amex or AIC at all. I'm sure I will. From what you are saying they must know it's not what it should be. Have a great party. DD

OhmyGod!!!!! BRW, thank you. I can hardly believe this. I have just started a separate thread where Scabhunter has been so helpful despite the fact that I haven't scanned in the Application form. I have been hoping to prove that the back is not what is referred to on the front. This is so brilliant. Wonderful news, Intree, for both of us I think. My signature box is the same as yours, and the Exec has quoted it in your letter. My application isn't the same as yours, but also has a box headed 'Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974' - again no mention of a CARD!!! Thank you for the relevant Court rulings too. Won't be in my office with printer/photocopier until next week but can't wait to send the letter. What a brilliant forum! Thank you and Happy New Year to all of you who help us so much. Lots of love, DD

Hi Guys, I'm in the same position as you. Three BCs - one original, one MS and and one Goldfish. Sent CCAs on 11th November and told Mercers, etc., that I wasn't going to do anything until I got them. One of the Mercer's people admitted at the end of November that they had received the BC one and said he would chase it up and come back to me within 24 hours. Never did. On 18th December I received two replies from BC customer services - one for BC and one for MS. They just sent the current BC Terms & Conditions so I'm going to write back telling they have obviously not read the letter and I am still awaiting the original signed agreements. Goldfish (BC No. 3) - no response at all. Happy New Year to you all too. DD

Thanks everyone for your replies. Scabhunter: I'm sure the front is accurate. I'll try and find a scanner to use. What makes this very difficult to work with is the layout of the photocopy they have sent. As I mentioned, the form is 2/3 A4 and I'm not certain if the back would actually fit on the front - it would be very tight. On the front page the top of the document is photocopied starting one-third down the page and runs to the bottom - the top third of the copy is blank. Overleaf the copy starts at the top of the page and the bottom third of the page is blank. This seems a very strange way to photocopy anything. Paragraph 8 is Annual Percentage Rate and refers to their four cards - 1 is green, 2 companion green, 3 stand alone gold (mine) and 4 companion gold, and says that percentage rates are found in the table opposite. Should my own specific credit limit be mentioned anywhere? Also after posting my thread yesterday I saw another Amex thread where there is a mention of a reference number on the bottom left of the T&Cs which lets you know which date the T&Cs were produced/in force. There is no reference number on this copy. If there had to be room for a reference number under the last line of the Conditions the whole thing definitely wouldn't fit on to 2/3 A4. The Personal Information box "Before signing this application, it is important that you read the paragraphs set out overleaf, which set out how we collect and use information about you for the purpose of providing the Card service and other appropriate products and services. By signing this application you agree that for the purpose of processing it AMEX may a carry out credit checks ..... b use various statistical methods to evaluate credit worthiness ... c contact employer, bank ..... The paragraph about use of info is para 17 on the conditions overleaf. I just don't know why this box refers to 'overleaf' but the one about the 'Terms and Conditions which form part of this agreement' doesn't state 'overleaf' at all. It's not consistent. I'll try and find a scanner, but if you have any further thoughts in the meantime I'd be grateful to hear them. Many thanks. DD

Hi Shallou and Toffee Penny, Happy New Year to you too! I joined mid-December and it makes you feel so much better that there are clearly thousands of people as worried about money as we are. I was very muddled too to start with, and even now I can't always work it out. What's great is that even if people can't help they will often post a message of support which really will make you feel better. I have been watching for a couple of weeks to find out what I could about my particular credit cards and have just started posting specific questions today. Here's hoping 2009 is better for all of us.

Well how mean is that? The problem with all the debitarse muppets is that they actually haven't got a clue what they are on about at all. They work to a script. If you ask a question which isn't on their list of bog standard replies they don't know what to say so keep repeating the same lines: "But I am phoning today about a payment." "I have to advise you that you are in arrears and you owe ....." Doesn't matter what you say about Capone's default, because their brains haven't been programmed to deal with that response.

Hi Sunflower, Today I received two calls from Capone. The first time I asked the guy to spell his name and he had to go offline for about five minutes to agree to do it. Then I asked him if he was familiar with CCA 1974 and he hadn't got a clue what I was talking about. I explained that Capone were in default as they had not supplied a copy of the original signed credit agreement. He put me on hold for a further five minutes and said it would arrive in 5-7 working days. I said I hoped it would be signed off as a true copy by someone in authority. He didn't get it at all. I am now expecting a bodged up copy. Second call from Debitas came this evening. I asked the girl if she happened to be familiar with CCA 1974, and the fact that I am entitled to a copy of the original agreement. She said she wasn't calling about that, she just needed to get a payment - she wasn't "legal", she was "collections". Explained in words of one syllable that she couldn't have anything at all until I got a copy of the agreement and suggested that as she was working for a "legal" services firm she should maybe ask them for some legal training. She decided to end the call and wished me a nice day!!!!!

Hello, I have seen a number of references to Amex application forms not being enforceable agreements, but I think the earliest reference I've seen is in 2003. I asked Amex for the signed agreement and what they have sent is the 60-second Application Form, also marked 'Invitation expires End March 2000'. I don't have a scanner so please bear with me if I describe briefly what is on the form which is on 2/3 of A4. The left hand side appears to be odd boxes and some lines with nothing written on them. At the top it says 'Yes, please send me the American Express Gold Credit Card'. There are very brief details I have given: name, address, phone number, salary, employer's name . On the right hand side there are four boxes. The first is headed 'Personal Information' and tells me that 'it is important that I read the paragraphs SET OUT OVERLEAF ...... products, services, sharing information etc. The second box says 'Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974'. The parties to the agreement are Amex, etc., and the applicant whose name and address are given opposite... I'm over 18 ..... etc. ... supplementary cards, and so on, then 'I agree to be bound by the Terms and Conditions which form part of this agreement.' This has NO reference to these T&Cs being overleaf. Box 3 is the right to cancel. Box 4 is the signature box which says 'This is a Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Sign it only if you want to be legally bound by its terms.' I have signed it. No-one from Amex has. On the other side it is headed 'Conditions', not Terms and Conditions. I have no idea if these were the Terms and Conditions in 2000. It appears to have the prescribed terms about interest and repayment, although I am confused as there appear to be different thoughts on whether the credit limit must be shown as a figure in any enforceable Agreement ??? as opposed to an application form. This just states they will decide my credit limit from time to time at their discretion. They sent me this about a month ago. Before I asked for it I was being hounded by AIC but I have heard nothing further from them since I received this form from Amex. I know I haven't given all the info, but if anyone has any thoughts about this 60-second Application or knows what was actually on the back I'd love to hear from you. Thank you. Desperate Daniella

Hi Kris, You are not responsible for the previous tenant's debts. Presumably the landlord/agent took a final meter reading when they left and before you moved in? From reading your post it appears you are now with a different supplier anyway? If I were you I would just tell them it is nothing to do with you and if they do take you to Court you will have the documents to prove they have no case (your tenancy agreement, etc.) I would also give them the landlord's contact details and tell them he may know where the previous tenant has gone - unlikely I think if he has skipped owing this money, but it may get them off your back!!!

Hi Sunflower, I hope you had a lovely Christmas too. Mine was certainly quiet on the 'phone front - no calls from Debitas, Mercers, etc. Apparently even they stop for Christmas:) I returned home today and found that Capone has sent me a copy of some of their current T&Cs on the back of a letter, telling me to look at the enclosed leaflet for "the rest of" my T&Cs. This letter comes from the Marketing Department. I wonder if the Legal Department are sending these silly replies from Marketing precisely because the Marketing people probably won't know anything about CCA 74. Has anyone who received a bodged-together apparent agreement ever replied to Capone asking that a person of authority who is aware of the penalties of falsifying documents should sign the document as a true copy (and if they go to Court they could be charged with perjury if it's not a true copy)? In other words, don't try and get someone from the typing pool, or even marketing, to put themselves on the line because they don't know what they are doing.

Thank you!!!!! DD

Hello, We are in the same time frame, although I didn't send a second letter, just told Mercers that I was waiting for the CCA and had nothing to discuss with them until they sent it. Today I received the Barclaycard Terms and Conditions from Barclaycard. I also received exactly the same letter enclosing the same Terms and Conditions in response to my request to send me the CCA for Morgan Stanley. No CCAs for either. I think I have had a Barclaycard for about 25 years - weren't we originally given them as cheque guarantee cards? I have seen that Barclaycard are apparently taking people to court without a CCA but don't understand how they can enforce an agreement they don't have, so I am missing something. I would like to start a new thread, but can't see the button to push so I am obviously being completely stupid. Can someone explain in words of one syllable please. Thank you. DD

continued ... Write for the CCAs of any credit cards. Several of mine don't actually have enforceable agreements, although I've just started my fights with them. You are not alone. These B******s aren't worth dying for - even if they make you feel like that. Take care. DD