Hi citizenB I just wondered whether you had found anybody who could advise on whether I could make use of COBS or BCOBS and also whether there is any regulation preventing the sale/purchase of debts where a repayment plan is in place? Thanks Emtec

Hi dx The debt is nearly £10k. LLoyds business banking was involved because my business bank account was with them. I lost all my savings and redundancy money and I also had a business loan and business overdraft. They weren't very supportive. I remortgaged to pay these off. And a bi-product of losing all the money was that I used this card and other credit cards to pay the bills until they maxed out. I also had my personal account with Lloyds but the personal banking staff were not aware of my business problems. None of the various parts of Lloyds communicated with each other. I only mentioned the fact that I was defrauded to Trustcard to explain how things had gone wrong. Why would Trustcard be concerned that I had been defrauded apart from the fact that it meant that I could not pay them? The business banking manager couldn't even care less. And why would they wait some 8 years before choosing to sell on? I've noticed several others on this board reporting that Lloyds have recently sold their accounts to the same DCA. I'd imagine that there have been wholesale sales of accounts where LLoyds have decided that the potential to recover the debts are poor. Haven't they just reported losses due to PPI misselling? I'm inclined to think that this maybe why they are cutting their losses by selling these accounts. Nevertheless, I still believe that the way they did it to me was misleading and unfair treatment and created an unfair relationship and I'm looking for advice on this and also whether there is any regulation preventing the sale/purchase of debts where a repayment plan is in place.

Hi again dx The penny has just dropped about the fraud issue. I think I mentioned that the reason I got into financial trouble was that I was defrauded in business but that was in the early 2000s. I did explain this to Lloyds TSB at the time but they probably won't even have the letter on file now as it would be over 6 years ago.

Hi dx Sorry, I get long-winded and tend to cause confusion at times. There is no fraud involved. I did say that I felt that Lloyds TSB had misrepresented their intentions because they asked me to submit an income & expenditure statement on the basis of them considering my proposal to extend the nominal payment arrangement with them. They accepted my proposal and immediately sold the account.

Hi dx Yes it has been sold to a DCA (c a b o t). The purpose of my original post was to enquire whether I had a case for unfair treatment under COBS or possibly BCOBS because Lloyds TSB had agreed to continue the repayment plan and had immediately sold it on. If so, I thought I might be able to use it to persuade Lloyds TSB to take the account back. A CAG article on unfair treatment, and the article that citizenB sent me a link for relating to estoppel, appeared to indicate that I might have a case but my circumstances were different in that my repayment arrangement was subject to periodic review. What also came out of the article on estoppel, and also the thread that that article linked to, appeared to contain suggestions that a DCA should not buy an account where a repayment plan exists and I wondered whether that was just a moral code (ie something DCAs would not understand) or was set in regulation or statute. You suggested earlier that Lloyds TSB perhaps sold the account due to there being PPI or a significant chunks of unfair charges. I suspect they did it because they saw that my financial situation had remained the same for a number of years and reached the conclusion that there was little prospect of it changing.

Thank you citizenB. All help will be gratefully accepted. dx100uk, thank you for taking the time to help. Unfortunately, there was no PPI and whilst there will have been some penalty charges, t he balance is nearly £10k and I don't think that a significant proprtion will be that. My financial problems started when I was defrauded in business and came on suddenly. Lloyds TSB had been very supportive for a number of years. They cancelled interest charges pretty quickly so I think that most of it will be money I used trying, unsuccessfully, to get out of myself out of difficulty.

Sorry citizenB, I posted before seeing your second post. That is a really interesting and helpful article. I have been paying the same nominal amount each month for about 8 years. I haven't missed a payment. However, it has always been subject to regular review. In 2010 Lloyds TSB wrote telling me that my repayment plan had come to an end and ignored all my correspondence requesting that it be reinstated until they had defaulted me. They then agreed to accept the same level of payment as had been in place for several years before the default. BLS's letter to me in September accepted the same level of payments again, "subject to periodical review". The DCA's letter acknowledges the agreed repayment plan with Lloyds TSB but states that they regularly review these arrangements. I don't know if the fact that the payments are subject to review provides them with a get out clause? The other interesting point in both the article you provided as a link and also the link from that article to the thread on Connaught Collections where an estoppel defence was adopted by the judge was the implication that DCAs should not buy debts where there is an agreed repayment plan in place. Is there anything (regulations/legislation) specifically saying that accounts with an ongoing repayment plan should not be bought/sold? Thank you for all your help, citizenB.

Thank you citizenB. I had read the articles. My initial recollection was that the Unfair Treatment article covered my situation but on re-reading it says "Reneging on an instalments agreement by, for instance, beginning recovery measures directly or through an agent while the agreement is in place". I know that banks do not act with decency or honour and that this just appears to be accepted as the norm, but my feeling is that they should not have attempted to negotiate a repayment plan with the express purpose of selling the debt on. They misrepresented their intentions. It wasn't in my best interests and it wasn't treating me fairly. As I quoted above, the Unfair Treatment article gives an example of reneging on an agreement by beginning recovery measures. I wondered what those who know about these matters thought about reneging on an instalment plan within a month of setting it up by selling it to a DCA?

Great. thank you CitizenB

Hi I don't know my way around this board too well. I posted an enquiry relating to Lloyds TSB treating me unfairly in connection with COBS under General Debt Issues but then I found this Lloyds Bank sub-forum. I have an old TSB bank account, a former Lloyds bank account (both now Lloyds TSB accounts that I don't use) and a Lloyds TSB Trustcard account. The Trustcard account has just been sold to a DCA. I want to access all my records for these three accounts. Can I do this with one SAR or would I need to send one for the Trustcard and another for the bank accounts? It is not a PPI issue, I just want to understand my position regarding the Trustcard as I have no record or recollection of signing an application or receiving a credit agreement back in the 1990s. The Trustcard was given as a cheque guarantee card to my TSB account when I opened that account. It doubled as a credit card. Thank you.

Hi I have had a long term arrangement with Lloyds TSB regarding a Trustcard account. I have been paying a nominal amount for several years. I was contacted by Lloyds TSB earlier this year to review the arrangement and I forwarded a statement of means in the late summer. I then received a reply from BLS, who I hadn't written to (but who are, I believe, part of Lloyds TSB) advising me that the proposed monthly amount was acceptable. However, they then appear to have almost immediately sold the account to a DCA. It strikes me that this is not treating me fairly and is a breach of Lloyds TSB's statutory obligations under COBS. I wondered if anybody who knows more about such matters could advise me whether this view is reasonable and accurate as I intend to write to them to this effect? Also, I was provided with this credit card when I opened a TSB bank account in the 1990s. If you wanted a cheque guarantee card, the card they gave you doubled as a credit card. I know it pre-dates BCOBS but I wondered if BCOBS was applicable as it was provided by the bank as a cheque guarantee card? I hope that somebody can advise me. Thank you.

Thank you, clemma and the_shadow. It is good to know there are decent people around willing to give advice and help.

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I really would appreciate some advice on how I should respond to Cabot, please. Just to recap, in 2003 I entered into a private arrangement to pay back a nominal sum in respect of a Morgan Stanley credit card. This continued until Morgan Stanley, after it became Goldfish, sold the debt to Cabot in April 2008. In May 2008 I requested a copy of the Credit Agreement and a statement of account from them. In Feb/March 2009 they sent me a statement of account containing an incomplete set of statements (including a statement for somebody else (with his name and address)) and an illegible copy of the original application form and a copy of some recent terms and conditions that relate to Barclays Bank. I replied as advised by clemma above. I referred to the illegibility of the application form referring Cabot to Regulation 2 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557). They replied as follows: Cabot Doc1.doc.pdf I presume that Cabot are wrong in what they say about the 1983/1553 Regulations but I’d appreciate some advice on how to argue the point, please? As far as the application form is concerned, I advised them that it doesn’t contain the prescribed terms and this is how they replied: Cabot Doc2.doc.pdf As I understand it, they are merely playing with words and that the agreement must contain the prescribed terms within the four corners of the document. Is that correct? Also, I have been continuing to pay Morgan Stanley a nominal amount each month and these payments have been passed on to Cabot by Goldfish. Cabot seem to be using this against me: Cabot Doc3.doc.pdf I continued paying Morgan Stanley as I wasn’t certain what I should be doing whilst Cabot tried to obtain the credit agreement. I don’t know how to proceed as far as further payments are concerned. Have I compromised my position by continuing to pay Morgan Stanley? I have never paid a penny to Cabot directly as they claim and I don’t have a repayment plan in place with them. Also, Cabot wrote to me separately as follows claiming that I had failed to make the first payment of a payment plan but, as I say, I have never discussed a payment plan with them let alone agreed one. Cabot Doc4.doc.pdf Any suggestions on how I should respond to this please? Thank you for any assistance. Emtec

Hi jdene, Thank you for your comments. Good luck with your battle with Cabot. I hope you get somewhere with the FOS and ICO. Also, is there anybody please who can take a look at the most recent letter I have had from Cabot (please see my post of yesterday at 13.23)and advise me where I stand and what I should do next, please? Thank you. Emtec

Hi again Can anyone please advise me on what to do next and how to respond, please? Thank you.

For personal reasons I was delayed in responding to Cabot but I did so earlier this month and have received their reply today, which I attach below. Can I please have some advice on what to do next? As I mentioned in my original post, I haven't paid any money directly to Cabot, as they say I have in their letter, but I have continued to pay Morgan Stanley £6 per month and it appears that they (as Goldfish) are passing this through to Cabot. Cabot letter Apr 09.pdf Cabot letter Apr 09 p2.pdf

Thanks alot Clemma. I really appreciate your help.

Fantastic! Thank you very much Clemma. I will get this letter off to them. Should I state anywhere that the account is in dispute as Cabot seem to be suggesting that I have failed to establish a dispute so far and that they are therefore permitted to pursue their claim against me. You say that it is unenforceable because it is illegible. From what you say in the letter, it appears that the document is unenforceable in any case because it doesn't contain the prescribed terms. Is that rght? Should I stop paying even the nominal amount to Morgan Stanley (who pass the money on to Cabot)? Thank you once again.

Hi This is my first post. I have a problem with Cabot and would be most grateful for any advice on what I should do. I have had financial difficulties since 2003 and entered into private arrangements to pay back nominal sums in respect of 4 credit card debts. One of these was with Morgan Stanley. These arrangements continued until Morgan Stanley, after it became Goldfish, sold the debt to Cabot in April 2008. In May 2008 I requested a copy of the Credit Agreement and a statement of account from them. This kept them quiet until recently when they sent the statement of account and an illegible copy of the original application form and a copy of some terms and conditions that relate to Barclays Bank, who I don’t believe had anything to do with Morgan Stanley when the application was made in 2000. I replied saying that I had only received an illegible copy of the application form and again requested a copy of the original credit agreement. Cabot has now responded saying that the Application Form is the credit agreement and that the form states that “This is a credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Sign it only if you want to be legally bound by its terms”. They also say that the fact that the copy is illegible is not important as I signed the original which was legible. Cabot now claim that they are in a position to enforce the debt and they are demanding that a payment arrangement to settle the account be put in place within 14 days. I'm not in a position to come to any arrangement. I have continued to pay Morgan Stanley a nominal amount each month and these payments have been passed on to Cabot by Goldfish. I am going to attempt to post the relevant documents but this is all new to me. My scanned copies have made the forms even more illegible. Thank you for any assistance. Application.PDF Application 2.PDF T&C 1.pdf T&C 2.pdf Cabot letter copy0001.PDF