That sounds like a nice honest person, but be warned they may be in a minority at your council office and if (as happened to me) they changed computer systems and for some reason lose access to those files then you've no proof. What you should do is send a polite letter confirming everything that was said in the telephone conversation and as them to confirm that their records agree with yours. Don't leave it to chance, it cost me nearly £4000 in council tax I shouldn't have had to pay, and still owe today. I always suggest doing it in this order: written letter to bailiffs, scanned and emailed to them, email copy to council tax dept, head of revenue, your councillor, and your MP. Right at the top of the page although it's often worth browsing previous threads because some of the letters are cracking, that's how I did it. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/120845-rossendales-final-reminder-i.html

That's right tt is saying exactly that. Although they may have an attempt if they're feeling lucky Council tax (administration and enforcement) regulations act 1992 section 45 subsection 4 Although the bailiff cannot vary the Liability Order which does not include his fees and is therefore IMHO all that you are legally obliged to pay, once he has seized goods lawfully they are his property, and he is entitled to hold them (ie in wpa) until you either pay the required amount to release them or he sells them. tt has already explained that case law precedents allow you to dispute those charges, they know perfectly well that they cannot make multiple charges on one visit - because they are unfairly increasing the debt thereby reducing the debtors ability to repay the original debt, particularly because it is the bailiffs practice to take their fees first and pay the council afterwards. Notice I said "practice", that's not their right. They should be on CBeebies Storymaker! Have a read of Section 45 subsection 3 yourself and I defy you to find bailiffs fees mentioned anywhere in that paragraph. The terms of the Liability Order are set out in the Liability Order which is an order made by the Magistrates Court - maybe in bulk, but a court order nevertheless - no mere bailiff may alter it, only the court can do that. The costs incurred by the local authority are those made public each year or so, and refer to the cost of applying for the Liability Order. Not in theory at all...................., they really are trying to defraud you and it usually works. That's why the bailiff industry was worth 6 Billion last year - imagine that! Every debt in the UK has been increased in total by £6,000,000. And the council tax are only chasing 1% in arrears of all CT collected each year. You have to be very persistent and pursue them for EACH separate mistake/error/fraud like a terrier stalking a rat - keeping meticulous records and carefully researching each letter you send, and sending a scanned email copy of each letter to the council tax department, the head of the council tax department, your councillor and your MP.

They were entitled to collect once the council passed the debt to them regardless of the arrangement you had. The council have a contract with them . The bailiffs were entitled to assume that the car was yours and were entitled to seize it. However, once they were informed that it wasn't your property but was in fact the property of the Hire Purchase Company, they should have released it from seizure and amended their records to show no charge. A statutory declaration should be enough although some insist on the owner making an application to them directly. It was important at this point to put that in writing, because you have no proof of that phone call, only of making the payment. At that point the bailiffs felt justified in carrying on because they clearly believed they had lawfully seized your car. Unless you had provided evidence that the vehicle was NOT your property it's difficult to see how they could have done anything else. And the Police haven't got a clue - they aren't called wooden tops by their detective colleagues for nothing, who aren't always the sharpest tools in the box themselves. The police, unless you are lucky, will take the line of least resistance and will assume the bailiff is telling them the truth. That's typical, they probably didn't have it with them anyway. So let me see, so far you have paid them: Arrears due to authority- £306.50 Levy Charge- £ 32.00 Enforcement Fee - £255.00 Enforcement Fee - £476.50 Which I believe totals = £1070.00 that you have paid on top of the money you owed the council.

You've been well and truly screwed. So to start from the top. Template letters are usually in the wiki. You, by the sound of it have grounds for a complaint against the bailiffs, and a complaint against the Police officers - which you should address to the Chief Constable himself, it's the only way it'll be taken seriously. That doesn't mean they'll do anything though, but if you don't try you'll never know.

I wouldn't do that No, I would directly challenge them in writing if they are wrong because that's the only way to keep them honest. First I'd want to establish beyond any doubt that what I was saying was right - which is quite correctly the point of your post. First of all I would challenge what they've said in writing - and warn them that if they don't stop misrepresenting their powers and attempting to charge excessive fees you will complain to the court about individual bailiffs. (form 4 complaint) and if necessary about the bailiff company (section 46 complaint). There is the other stuff, like harrassment, and the possibility that their actions may be considered fraudulent (Fraud Act 2006). Funny you should say that; although the council are contractually obliged to pass accounts to the bailiffs, once the liability order is settled - before any lawful levy is made - the bailiffs have no right to pursue any fees. The council has no obligation to give the bailiffs any money at all.

Very interesting, you should really write back and ask them to quote the legal text that supports that statement. Although I suspect that it's either bs or they are confused about the law themselves. See here: The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 You see, if they don't levy S45s3 says that once the amount on the liability order is paid including charges up to that point the levy can't go ahead. But if they do levy then S45s4 says that charges up to that point are included, because the bailiff has seized goods, their fees are taken care of either by the sale of the goods, or the debtor paying the bill and the bailiffs fees to release the goods. Nowhere in that section does it mention bailiff fees . A Liability Order is made by a Magistrates Court - and the order doesn't include Bailiff fees. Most people won't have read the Act, and I suspect that's what your bailiffs are relying upon. Hope that's clearer........

I think scatz is right to raise that point, you can't be too careful. And it sounds like you don't need me to write a letter either

That's a very good point, have you checked with the council that you've paid what was listed on the liability order?

While I'm trying to find it here's a bit of background info: MAKING A COMPLAINT ABOUT A CERTIFICATED BAILIFF Section 8 of the Distress for Rent Rules 1988 provides for a person to file a complaint at court against a certificated bailiff and challenge his fitness to continue work as a bailiff. Complete a Form 4 complaint and return it to the bailiff’s certificating court. Keep everything factual and short. Call 0207 210 0516 with the name of the bailiff to find the court name and address. Grounds for making a complaint can include: The Bailiff is untrustworthy Collecting a debt that is larger than the debt originally claimed by the creditor The bailiff defrauded you He over-charged you in fees committing an offence under Section 2(1)(b)(i) and Section 4(1)©(i) of the Fraud Act 2006 Charged a fee that is not prescribed in law – e.g. a credit or debit card fee or a van fee etc Charged a fee contradicting Section 10 of the Distress for Rent Rules 1988 Charged you a walking possessions fee without you signing it Tricked you to sign a walking possessions agreement pretending the document was something else – e.g. a receipt, or payment confirmation. Getting you to sign a walking possession agreement before telling you what the fee will be Charged you attending to remove fee on his 1st visit Seized goods valued disproportionately higher than the debt Sold your goods at a disproportionately lower price than you would have otherwise attained at auction (e.g. on eBay) He has charged you fees for previous visits while you were out and says you have to prove those visits were not made He has charged you fees for visits or posting letters that contradict Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 e.g. by sending them to a different address. The bailiff is dishonest or of unfit character He was aggressive, rude, threatening or intimidating Pretended to be an officer of the court Impersonated a solicitor or police officer You sustained an injury by the bailiff (Contact a solicitor and make a separate claim under the Personal Injury Protocol) Lied about the extent of his authority Damaged your goods, car or property (Reclaim these from the authority that instructed the bailiff via the small claims track) The bailiff committed extortion or blackmail He said you will pay a higher sum of money unless to pay him a lower sum of money according to a deadline The bailiff levied incorrectly Seized goods that are not yours, e.g. belonging to a room mate, finance company, landlord, friend, relative, employee, client or neighbour Goods you require for domestic basic needs, e.g. fridge, cooker, clothes, bed, chair, medical equipment Non-movable goods e.g. a TV or painting bolted to a wall, or item needing a tool to remove (not vehicles requiring a tow truck) Intellectual property or item covered under The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 or a computer containing the aforementioned Tools of your trade, including a van, taxi or minicab (not criminal debts, fines, CSA, HMRC etc) Goods subject to a hire purchase agreement The bailiff did not adhere to the law Threatened to break into your home or get a locksmith without a valid levy Called at night Entered your home by applying force against you, a door or window You have a disability, ill, or heavily pregnant Refused to show proof of authority, name of certificating Court or proof of debt (Contact police on 9999 and report a burglary in progress) You (If you’re an Attorney – your donor) do not have mental capacity You have filed an appeal or a statutory declaration against the debt He seized a computer or laptop and didn’t allow you to recover data stored on it (you should immediately contact a solicitor specialising in Intellectual Property) The following are not sufficient to make a complaint on their own, only to supplement a complaint. The bailiff was unreasonable He called at an hour when most people are normally asleep Climbed through a window Climbed over a gate or fence Used ladders, climbed a fire escape, emergency exit or other external structure not normally used as an entrance Refused to give a fee breakdown until after you have paid them He set a deadline for you to pay that’s disproportionately short compared to your ability to pay The Court will give the bailiff 14 days to answer your complaint. If the bailiff fails to respond he will be summonsed, but you don’t need to attend. The Court can: 1. Order the bailiff to pay you compensation from his bailiff bond. This is a monetary deposit or a policy similar to liability insurance. 2. Revoke the bailiff’s certificate 3. Dismiss the complaint

Spot on, well done! You did exactly the right thing. Well that IS naughty! But it makes no difference because they have no legal way of recovering those fees, and any attempt to do that would be unlawful and fraudulent. That's very useful, so what I suggest you write back will be in my next post

That was good advice, especially because you can now rely upon section 45 (3) of the Council tax regs see here: The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

I think you're being a bit harsh on Sid, although under the kind of pressure that these situations create it's hardly surprising. In my view the fact that he's taking part on this website at all points to a desire to help. We all say things a little less kindly than we could, and I'm no exception - I'm painfully aware of the effect on one poster (and the flames from others) when I said she should leave her partner! I still hope she did, but I wish I hadn't said it! :o There's a moral in there somewhere........

Sorry, folks, been a bit tied up with my own chaos. yes that's what I'd put, although tomtubby is the expert, and if you've any major doubt you should google bailiff advice online and read on. thx, I'd do what zontaxit is doing.

Sorry, it's not like me at all but I've tried not to think about it for a couple of days. After Derek at the CAB exhausted every remaining legal nook and cranny and could only find ways to delay the eviction - I finally came to the conclusion that I'd gain no more control over the sale than I had already. So I'm going to meet the bailiff at the house and hand him the keys. There is no longer anything I can do effectively, except to monitor the progress of the sale and see how much it sells for. To add insult to injury, 3 people want to view the house this week - where were they last year! The last ditch legal argument was based upon the ruling (see here Cheltenham & Gloucester Plc v Booker & Anor [1996] EWCA Civ 957 (14th November, 1996) ) that said the borrower should be able to remain in the property until the lender sold it, provided the borrower cooperated with the sale and did everything they reasonably could to enhance the sale, and provided the lender didn't have any reasonable objection. This had a 25 - 30% chance of success, long odds I agree, but if we'd had nowhere to go, better than nothing. And with courts, you can never tell...

No, but not gaining entry or finding anything to levy upon will do the trick because the bailiff will eventually hand the account back to the council. Being a bailiff is a bit like being a salesman, in that, their time is valuable and they won't want to waste it on people who are unlikely to or unable to pay.

sorry hit the submit before I'd finished No, not if they haven't been in before Yes, because the liability order won't fail because the listed debt amount isn't correct, you haven't disputed their collection so as far as they are concerned it's business as usual. Well that depends upon your relationship with your ex. If you are married then probably yes. If not then no. Of course it would be, and whatever reason your split up was for, no doubt it is distressing for your ex too. She should make a written/email complaint to the bailiffs and copy to the council tax dept, her councillor, and her MP, stressing the point that she is now a single parent with a pre-school toddler.

No

And if you are unfortunate enough to have stuff taken away you can apply to the court for a "detailed assessment" if you have very good reason to believe that the bailiff charges are excessive

not if you ask them, just don't ask - do it online and they won't refuse the money, plus it will show good faith on your part until you can get the council to take the account back

Well I've got bad news for both of them - there will be an equal bill for each of them. That was the whole point of the poll tax. Beforehand the rates were payable by the owner of the building but some little old ladys living in castles objected because they felt it was unfair on them when there were loads of "lucky" people sharing a house between them.

It doesn't mean anything That doesn't mean anything either and as you are on benefits you should be asking the council to take the account back - I'll post a template letter you can email/post to the bailiffs with a copy to the council, your councillor and your MP. Doesn't mean anything, unless you've got it on tape or have a reliable witness - then he's in trouble for telling porkies. Well I would start making payments direct online to the council - say £3 a week without fail starting now. Quite right. Now stop talking to them, and communicate only in writing/email if they visit again, don't even acknowledge their presence. You did say it was for council tax didn't you?

I've been through this. They can turn up in an Abrams tank and camp outside for week if they want, but they can't charge you for it

You can't charge van fees unless there is a levy - sorry

You might consider making a form 4 complaint if you can prove the payment in full came before the enforcement action, and have evidence of their continued enforcement after you have clearly, and politely written/emailed them explaining when and what you paid. That's probably because, although a bailiff is entitled to seize jewellery once he has gained peaceful entry, I don't think that includes anything you are wearing. But I'm not sure. It's unusual and raises all sorts of issues. For instance, if I'm wearing a pair of bejewelled Gucci underpants can the bailiff seize them while I'm wearing them? Quite apart from the physical hazards that would go with any attempt to relieve me of my undies the attempt to seize goods on your person may actually be an assault.

You don't need anything from anyone - except a printout of your council tax account from the council and you are entitled to that. The printout will show when you paid the debt, and if that comes before any levy by the bailiff, then their enforcement action is unlawful, and once they are made aware of it, fraudulent. First make sure that you have evidence of your payment of the sum listed on the council tax liability order before the date of the levy.