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    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
    • Euro have got a lot wrong and have failed to comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4.  According to Section 13 after ECP have written to Arval they should then send a NTH to the Hirer  which they have done.This eliminates Arval from any further pursuit by ECP. When they wrote to your company they should have sent copies of everything that they asked Arval for. This is to prove that your company agree what happened on the day of the breach. If ECP then comply with the Act they are allowed to pursue the hirer. If they fail, to comply they cannot make the hirer pay. They can pursue until they are blue in the face but the Hirer is not lawfully required to pay them and if it went to Court ECP would lose. Your company could say who was driving but the only person that can be pursued is the Hirer, there does not appear to be an extension for a driver to be pursued. Even if there was, because ECP have failed miserably to comply with the Act  they still have no chance of winning in Court. Here are the relevant Hire sections from the Act below.
    • Thank-you FTMDave for your feedback. May I take this opportunity to say that after reading numerous threads to which you are a contributor, I have great admiration for you. You really do go above and beyond in your efforts to help other people. The time you put in to help, in particular with witness statements is incredible. I am also impressed by the way in which you will defer to others with more experience should there be a particular point that you are not 100% clear on and return with answers or advice that you have sought. I wish I had the ability to help others as you do. There is another forum expert that I must also thank for his time and patience answering my questions and allowing me to come to a “penny drops” moment on one particular issue. I believe he has helped me immensely to understand and to strengthen my own case. I shall not mention who it is here at the moment just in case he would rather I didn't but I greatly appreciate the time he took working through that issue with me. I spent 20+ years of working in an industry that rules and regulations had to be strictly adhered to, indeed, exams had to be taken in order that one had to become qualified in those rules and regulations in order to carry out the duties of the post. In a way, such things as PoFA 2012 are rules and regulations that are not completely alien to me. It has been very enjoyable for me to learn these regulations and the law surrounding them. I wish I had found this forum years ago. I admit that perhaps I had been too keen to express my opinions given that I am still in the learning process. After a suitable period in this industry I became Qualified to teach the rules and regulations and I always said to those I taught that there is no such thing as a stupid question. If opinions, theories and observations are put forward, discussion can take place and as long as the result is that the student is able to clearly see where they went wrong and got to that moment where the penny drops then that is a valuable learning experience. No matter how experienced one is, there is always something to learn and if I did not know the answer to a question, I would say, I don't know the answer to that question but I will go and find out what the answer is. In any posts I have made, I have stated, “unless I am wrong” or “as far as I can see” awaiting a response telling me what I got wrong, if it was wrong. If I am wrong I am only too happy to admit it and take it as a valuable learning experience. I take the point that perhaps I should not post on other peoples threads and I shall refrain from doing so going forward. 🤐 As alluded to, circumstances can change, FTMDave made the following point that it had been boasted that no Caggers, over two years, who had sent a PPC the wrong registration snotty letter, had even been taken to court, let alone lost a court hearing .... but now they have. I too used the word "seemed" because it is true, we haven't had all the details. After perusing this forum I believe certain advice changed here after the Beavis case, I could be wrong but that is what I seem to remember reading. Could it be that after winning the above case in question, a claimant could refer back to this case and claim that a defendant had not made use of the appeal process, therefore allowing the claimant to win? Again, in this instance only, I do not know what is to be gained by not making an appeal or concealing the identity of the driver, especially if it is later admitted that the defendant was the driver and was the one to input the incorrect VRN in error. So far no one has educated me as to the reason why. But, of course, when making an appeal, it should be worded carefully so that an error in the appeal process cannot be referred back to. I thought long and hard about whether or not to post here but I wanted to bring up this point for discussion. Yes, I admit I have limited knowledge, but does that mean I should have kept silent? After I posted that I moved away from this forum slightly to find other avenues to increase my knowledge. I bought a law book and am now following certain lawyers on Youtube in the hope of arming myself with enough ammunition to use in my own case. In one video titled “7 Reasons You Will LOSE Your Court Case (and how to avoid them)” by Black Belt Barrister I believe he makes my point by saying the following, and I quote: “If you ignore the complaint in the first instance and it does eventually end up in court then it's going to look bad that you didn't co-operate in the first place. The court is not going to look kindly on you simply ignoring the company and not, let's say, availing yourself of any kind of appeal opportunities, particularly if we are talking about parking charge notices and things like that.” This point makes me think that, it is not such a bizarre judgement in the end. Only in the case of having proof of payment and inputting an incorrect VRN .... could it be worthwhile making a carefully worded appeal in the first instance? .... If the appeal fails, depending on the reason, surely this could only help if it went to court? As always, any feedback gratefully received.
    • To which official body does one make a formal complaint about a LPA fixed charge receiver? Does one make a complaint first to the company employing the appointed individuals?    Or can one complain immediately to an official body, such as nara?    I've tried researching but there doesn't seem a very clear route on how to legally hold them to account for wrongful behaviour.  It seems frustratingly complicated because they are considered to be officers of the court and held in high esteem - and the borrower is deemed liable for their actions.  Yet what does the borrower do when disclosure shows clear evidence of wrong-doing? Does anyone have any pointers please?
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Cera vs RBS


Tizzy22
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Story so far:

 

Did all me letters to the bank claiming £3800 ish and had an offer of £102.10 (not sure where they came up with that figure). Anyhow, started proceedings on Money Claim Online, they acknowledged within the time frame then defended at the 11th hour and now I have a letter from Cobbetts requesting "Further Information".

 

Also received stuff from court stating that it has been transferred to my local court with a copy of the letters that they sent me. I haven't had an AQ though.

 

Have done a response letter to Cobbetts based on various bits of info I've pulled from forums but me questions are:

 

a) Why haven't I had an AQ - I thought you got one as soon as they filed defence.

 

b) In my response to Cobbetts, do I include - as they have requested details of charges - my spreadsheet INCLUDING interest?

 

Am getting dead scared about things now and would appreciate any advice I can get.

 

Thanks in antic.

 

Cera x

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Could someone please look over the reponse I've put together:

1. In your claim you state "the Defendant applied numerous default charges to the Claimants account”.

2. Please provide the following particulars in support of your claim:

2.1 To what account(s)(giving details of the account name, number and sort code) were the charges applied.

All letters sent to your client clearly stated my account name and number. However, for clarification, they are as follows:

Account Name: xxxxxxx

Account Number: xxxxxxx

Sort Code: xxxxxxx

2.2 In relation to each charge please identify (a) the date when the charge was charged; (b) the amount of the same; © the reason(s) given for the charging of the same

These have also been provided on numerous occasions however, I have again enclosed a spreadsheet detailing all charges, dates and details as per statements. I am also entitled to claim interest at 8 per cent per annum from the date when charges were first applied to my account until a judgment is made. This has been included on my spreadsheet.

2.3. In relation to each charge, please clarify the following: (a) is it the case of the Claimant the same should not have been charged? (b) if yes; please explain why the Claimant contends that the same should not have been charged? © If no; is it the case of the Claimant that the same should not have been charged this amount? (d) If yes; please explain why the Claimant contends that the same should not have been charged in this amount and identify the sum the Claimant contends should have been charged; (e) If no; please state the Claimants case.

 

In response to Para 2.3

(a) Yes, the Claimant should not have been charged an amount above the true administrate cost incurred by the respondents.

(b) The Claimant alleges that the charges are Penalty charges and are irrecoverable at common law. The precedent for this was Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage and Motor co Ltd [1915] AC 79.along with Murray v. Leisure play [2005] EWCA Civ 963 It was held that a contractual party can only recover damages for an actual loss or liquidated losses.

© The Claimant should have been charged the true administrative cost.

(d) The Respondent has asked what the Claimant should have been charged. To answer this Claimant will need a break down of the administrative costs incurred by the defendant in applying the said charges.

3. In your claim you state that “[the] charge is deemed to be a penalty”

A charge is deemed to be a penalty if, in reference to the case Wilson v Love in 1896, it does not reflect the true cost of an item.

4. Please provide the following particulars in support of your claim:

4.1 Please specify the clause(s) pursuant to which the charges were applied.

4.2 Please specify whether the charges applied were due to breach of contract by the Claimant

4.3 Please identify in each case the particular breach of contract (by reference to appropriate term(s) of the contract) that the charge related to.

In response to the Paragraph 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3, made by the defendant the Claimant will not be able to responded to these until the Claimant has disclosure and inspection of documents as the Claimant will be requiring a copy of his contract with the defendants.

5. In your claim you state that the charges are: “a breach of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999”

6. Please specify all of the facts relied on by the Claimant in support of the contentions in paragraph 5 above, and in particular please identify the contractual provision(s) that the Claimant alleges are invalid by reference to the Regulations.

In response to Para 5 and 6 the respondents seem to misunderstand this point, the responsibility is on the defendant to prove that their terms are not contrary to the Unfair terms in Consumer Contract Regulations, however once the respondent has sent a breakdown of their administrative costs and a copy of the contract to the Claimant. The claimant will be happy to point out the contractual provision(s) that the claimant alleges are invalid.

If the defendant requires any further information, the Claimant will be happy to provide this once the discloser of documents/information has been dealt with by the court, or the defendant has provide the requested information.

 

 

Again, thanks guys - any time I can help anyone with anything I will.

 

Cera x

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  • 2 weeks later...

OK so, I've had no response from anyone, but I thougt I'd keep you informed - had to respond to Cobbetts by 17th April and still, as of now, had no response from them. CC'd the letter to the Court also.

 

Will post if I get a reply from Cobbetts...

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