CCA Agreements (Mark II) PLUS any other topic

[Peterbard]

Hi Perseus and welcome to the thread!

 

I just hope this one is left alone because otherwise it's likely that many CAGers will not get the help of some of the wonderful and knowledgeable people who WERE helping out on the 1st CCA thread!

 

As to your question, the T&Cs supplied under the CCA request should be the ones applicable at the time the agreement was signed. I assume it was an 'agreement' and not just one of their 'application' forms?

 

You could try something like:

 

 

Thank you for the information you sent following my request under the CCA 1974.

 

However, I made a request to you on .... for a copy of the executed agreement applicable to the alleged debt. Under the CCA s77/78, you are obliged to send me a true copy of the actual credit agreement but have only sent me a copy of the initial application form and some recent terms and conditions.

 

A regulated credit agreement contains all of the prescribed terms, other required information and statements of my statutory rights. Any separate terms and conditions (which should have been referred to in the original agreement) should also be provided to me and must be those applicable at the time that the agreement was signed.

 

I would therefore be obliged if you would send me a true copy of these documents as soon as possible.

 

Yours

 

 

 

Regards, Pam

 

Hi

I totally dissagree what a load of rubbish. :D

 

Kidding

 

That the sort of thing you mean

 

and leave my spelling alone

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

hi

I think this thread is a good idea get all the trouble makers in one place then you know where they are

 

Petr

[Peterbard]

Hi Rinky

 

What date did you take out this loan?

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

Pam: Can you clear some space in your inbox please.

Language.

[Peterbard]

Hi

 

It's oooooh sooooo quiieet (Bjork!) over on the 'real' CCA thread today!

 

Poor old Peter seems to be manning the 'help desk' single-handedly!!

 

Ah well, that's life!!

Less of the "old" if you don't mind

 

Just because you have a new admirer,

Same old story ,the lurve triangle; A man, A woman, A cyborg

 

Sob

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

Just subscribed.

 

I requested a cca for a loan that ended up turning into a managed loan with HSBC, I requested a cca in feb this year, I have just received a copie of what they say is the cca, I cannot see a signature box, its not on it,

does this mean its not a fully executed aggreement therefore not enforceable, as of this Friday they have broken the law if its not a fully executed agreement, any advice would be gratefully appreciated

 

 

 

hi

 

Its been a long day so forgive me if i am wrong if iam i am sure Pam will tell me but

 

118 Payments at 40= 4720

 

2470 loan+ 2075.95 Interest= 4545.95

 

 

MMM

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

I think the point peter is trying to make is that the agreement has wrong data on it......theyre charging you £4720 and saying that your loan comes to £4545.95. a difference of £174.05

 

wrong data means improperly executed

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave#

 

Yes sorry to be oblique and not following up i was dragged of to hospital for a coulple of days, OK now but trying to catch up.

 

Regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

HI

Been out of the loop on this thread but any way the key information wouldn't i think be on an agreement from 1992 so it is i would say unlikely to be a true copy of the orriginal.

I am a bit confused as you say there is a credit limit and then at the end you say there isn't,there of course has to be in order to be properly executed as it is aprescribed term.

I do not know what you mean by the term "frankenstiener".

Personally i think that Clique terminolligy is counter productive in a forum that is intended to help people who may not be contributing but are nevertherless looking for simple guidance.

Perhaps it is just me with my grumpy head on

 

Regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

Thank you Ian for your response - I agree!

 

Peter,

 

Apologies for the frankensteiner term, it has become the term we have used to explain cobbled together agreements. I am sorry if this caused offence, non was intended you GRUMPY so and so!

 

Also, I did not say there was a credit limit, there are details of apr's but the credit limit is missing and it was very low in 1992. What I meant to say is the wording under the term "credit limit", it says we will set a credit limit and tell you what it is before we send you your card. We may change it blah blah. I realise they are allowed to put this.

 

However, it still doesn't explain how it is dated 17 April 2007 and has my current address on it. I have moved 4 times since!!

 

Also, whilst I realise they are allowed to omit signatures, there is no room for this in any event for either me or them to have signed. There are no signature boxes at all.

 

Regards,

 

Corn:)

 

Hi Sorry for the grumpy old man impression, I had just been trying to decipher the Hansard on the bailiff thread, and had, had it up to here with looking up terms and references so i could find out wht peope where on about. By the way did you know that the new bailiff law stil enables bailliffs to take pets against a debt despite several attempts to get that particular attrocity amended,sorry off thread.

 

Yes i am afraid they are allowed to leave off signature boxes on "copy" docs,i will double check this but i am fairly sure it is the case.

 

Your best argument imo is that it cannot be a true copy because it is in the wrong format for the time you signed also it would be an idea to check the arithmatic i have found that they are invariably sloppy in calculating repayment tc and tcc charges.

A i am sure Pam has already advised you i would send them a letter asking tor a true copy of the orriginal agreement and remind them that they would not be able to enforce the debt without producng a true signed copy in court.

Regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

Just tried entering my details into the free checker provided at

 

https://www.financialagreementsolutions.co.uk/usr/basicchecker.aspx

 

The only thing that keeps coming back is no interest rate shown

 

I dont think that this is a "prescribed term" but is it enough to make it unenforceable?

 

60 Form and content of agreements

 

(1) The Secretary of State shall make regulations as to the form and content of documents embodying regulated agreements, and the regulations shall contain such provisions as appear to him appropriate with a view to ensuring that the debtor or hirer is made aware of—

 

(a) the rights and duties conferred or imposed on him by the agreement,

 

 

(b) the amount and rate of the total charge for credit (in the case of a consumer credit agreement),

 

 

© the protection and remedies available to him under this Act, and

 

(d) any other matters which, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, it is desirable for him to know about in connection with the agreement.

 

 

(2) Regulations under subsection (1) may in particular—

 

(a) require specified information to be included in the prescribed manner in documents, and other specified material to be excluded;

 

(b) contain requirements to ensure that specified information is clearly brought to the attention of the debtor or hirer, and that one part of a document is not given insufficient or excessive prominence compared with another.

 

 

Dave

Hi Just helpping pam out

 

prescribed terms (schedule six 1983 regs) these were not ammended by the 2004 ammendments

 

• amount of credit • credit limit • rate of interest • repayments Regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

.

 

 

Hi Peter

 

Yes, the Interest Rate IS a prescribed term, but for certain fixed sum credit agreements pre 2004, the interest rate was not required to be shown, e.g. where the rate of interest was variable.

 

As you keep saying to me - check the regs! :D

 

Regards, Pam

 

The statmenet was."I do not think this is a prescribed term "well as a point of information it is, i do not intend wasting my time and yours in arguing an accepted fact,in conection with some obscure reference that doesn't help anyone but just serves to confuse the point.

 

I think we both know the regs by now and i am sure you wil find that if this is the case then there should be a statement on the agreement to say so I am not convinced it is as far as i am concerened this is one of the prescribed terms.

Just remembered why i wasn't going to post on this thread.

 

Regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

HI

Yes it is a prescribed term there are certain cases where as Pam says it is not classed as such but it does not apply to you and if it did the fact that it was not on your agreement would still render it unenforceable as per an OFT ruling.

 

It's ok Pam just had a particularily frustrating exchange with one of Vera Bairds stooges and it has left me a bit spiky.

 

Best regards

Peter

 

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows:

• amount of credit

• credit limit

• rate of interest

• repayments

Sch 6 was not amended by the 2004 Regulations.

Peter

[Peterbard]

Hi All

 

I'm sorry to say I seem to have managed to get even myself confused here over the various agreement regs! :o

 

What I meant to say was that for certain fixed sum agreements the 'rate of interest' is not considered to be a 'prescribed term'. In such cases, as stated below, the lack of the 'rate of interest' will not render the agreement wholly unenforceable as is the norm. In these cases the agreement will be enforceable on an order of the court only.

 

 

 

 

 

Office of Fair Trading Consumer Credit (Agreements etc) Regs draft FAQs 93

 

8.6 What is meant by ‘rate of interest’?

 

Sch 6 para 4 applies to all running-account credit agreements, together with certain fixed-sum credit agreements, namely those:

• which do not specify the intervals between repayments or the amounts of repayments;

• under which the total amount payable may vary according to a specified formula by reference to an index or other factor; or

• which provide for variation of the amount or rate of any item included in the total charge for credit.

 

In such cases the agreement must include a term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided. This is also required by Sch 1 para 10 in respect of such agreements – see Q3.32.

 

[so if the agreement falls within any of the categories described above the 'rate of interest' is classed as a 'prescribed term'.]

 

8.7 What about other fixed-sum agreements?

 

Sch 1 para 9 requires that fixed-sum credit agreements not falling within para 10 (other than those under which the total amount payable does not exceed the total cash price) must state the rate of interest on the credit to be provided – see Q3.32.

However, Sch 6 para 4 has not been amended correspondingly, and so this is not a ‘prescribed term’ in such agreements.

 

[if the agreement falls within this 2nd category the 'rate of interest' is not considered to be a 'prescribed term'.]

 

If the term is missing or incorrect in such cases, the agreement is not properly executed (see Q1.20) and is enforceable against the debtor only with a court order. However, this does not make the agreement wholly unenforceable – see Q8.2.

 

 

Is this clearer?

 

Regards, Pam

 

HI Pam

yes i knew all that i was mearl yanswering the question i was asked.

As i think you indicated iinterest rate now has to be shown thanks to the 1482 regs but hey do not have the status of a prescribed term under these circumstance.

9." Agreements for fixed-sum credit except agreements -

• (a) which do not specify either the intervals between repayments or the amounts of repayments or both the intervals and the amounts;
   
  (b) under which the total amount payable by the debtor to discharge his indebtedness in respect of the amount of credit provided may vary according to any formula specified in the agreement having effect by reference to movements in the level of any index or to any other factor;
   
  © which provide for a variation of, or permit the creditor to vary, (whether or not by reference to any index) the amount or rate of any item included in the total charge for credit after the relevant date; or
   
  (d) under which the total amount payable by the debtor is not greater than the total cash price referred to in paragraph 4.

(1) The total charge for credit, with a list of its constituent parts.

 

(2) The rate of interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement or, where more than one such rate applies, all the rates in all cases quoted on a per annum basis with details of when each rate applies.

 

(3) A statement explaining how and when interest charges are calculated and applied under the agreement.

 

Regards

peter

[Peterbard]

HI

On Hallowed turf here so got to be careful;)

 

I dont think that using the incorrect word would e enought ot have the agreement declared unenforceaable as this is a matter of form not content and specifically not one of the criteria mentioned in section127.

 

Sorry

Peter

[Peterbard]

Hi Pam

 

No more plques ,making to many errors myself just lately and someone else might pick up on the idea.

(Oh and by the way it was 3 not that i was counting)

 

Regards

 

Peter

 

Ps don't you think my spelling is improving?

[Peterbard]

Well, having said that I was not going to post any more in the other Consumer Credit Agreement thread I'm afraid I have back-tracked on that, but only because I have been following it and recently noticed some people planning to tell their creditors that their agreements were unenforceable when in actual fact they are not 'unenforceable' but 'improperly executed'!

 

Also, I had said I would not post in that thread again until I had received a proper response from the MODS regarding the issues that arose last weekend but I guess that is never going to happen!

 

I wonder if one of the MODS watching this thread (as I am sure they are) would consider doing something much more useful by making a sticky of the links to the OFT docs 'cancellable agreements (2003), 'non-cancellable agreements (2003) and the CCA FAQs doc (2004), so that they are all easily accessible for people to check their agreements against.

 

Regards, Pam

 

Hi Pam

 

Good to have you back, like has been said a hundred times we are all here to learn. One of the things we have to learn is how to query each others posts without giving offence, and also being able to take correction without getting bent out of shape, i am as guilty of this as any one and it is very none productive but i am learning.

I Think your concise and dogmatic approach to problem solving is a great asset to the forum, as to the idea of giving a link to the information i am not so sure, many people who come on here are not sure what it is they are looking for and need the personal approach. i know you get inundated with pMs as do i and a lot of them are due to the fact that newcomers are reluctant to post on the forum.

Perhaps we should consentrate on being more user friendly.

 

Regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

I would just like to add a thank you for all those who give so much to these forums and for all the information I have gleaned on this site, particularly this one, and the other CCA Thread. I have just managed to help my daughter out of a sticky hole, post #167 on defaults. GE Money have tried to pull a flanker on her, dated their default notice 8th April 07 - which incidentally was Easter Sunday, so there was no collection until 10th April, she didn't actually receive it until 13th April, it included penalty charges, and they wanted settlement by 22nd April 07. The only reason she didn't pay was the car has been in garage since 5th March and the cost is £2,500 and no one wants to take responsibility.

 

I'm not sure how she really does stand legally on this one, I'm of the opinion that she should carry on paying. Notice of Termination dated 8th April 07 same day as the default notice, but this was received after the Default Notice. Seems odd to me. Any comments on how she stands would be appreciated.

 

hI

I havn't read your thread yet so forgive me if ths is old ground but you are aware that the default if commited after june 2006 will come under the 2006 CCA(this acts retrospectively) this gives you 14 days from the date of the default and also you were entitled to a notice of arrears prior to that and also a notification of any default charges you should also check these on your agreement.

I returned my car to GE under section 100 of the act and know exactly what ou mean about their tactics,take my advice and believe nothng they say unless the can show you the legislature. I got them to back down from a bill for over £2000 by sticking to my guns don't let them intimidate you PM me if you like and let me know how you get on

 

Regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

Can anybody lend a second opinion on this:

 

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s185/djdave2007/lo_res_scan_blanked_1024.jpg

 

Agreement, or application form? I think I know the answer. I hope I know the answer! But I want to see if anybody agrees with me

 

Cheers

 

Hi

Its an application form it says on the top, and according to our friend at the OFT an application form will not be acceptqale in a court instead of an agreement.

A copy of the letter from the OFT is on the other thread.

This must be the worst excuse for executed copy i have seen i see no prescribed trms and it doesn't even pretend to fill any of the form or content requirments.

Send it back and ask them for a copy of the agreement tell them you will not pay any more on the alleged acount untill you have one, remind them of the timescale for production that they are in default after 12 working days and after a further month have commited an offence and that the shoul not transfer any data to any outside source whilst the acount is in default nor accrue any interest to the account.

Best regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

No peter if you want to see aREALLY crap agreement

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-763464.html

 

now thats crap

 

Dave

 

I stand corrected

[Peterbard]

That does clarify things a a long way as it says "to provide the debtor/hirer with a copy of the executed agreement".

 

Although i am still a bit confused as the whether an 'application form' is acceptable. CCA reply from Capital One today is an application form copy. Although it says "I have read the terms an conditions setting out the agreement with Capital One" and, "if my application is successful, I agree to be bound by these terms and conditions".

There is no mention of amounts, interest rates etc

 

Hi

We have had conformation for some time that an application form is just that and can not be accepted as an agreement this has been confirmed by th DTI see my recent posting the oft on several occasions and basic comonsence.

 

Regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

That does clarify things a a long way as it says "to provide the debtor/hirer with a copy of the executed agreement".

 

Although i am still a bit confused as the whether an 'application form' is acceptable. CCA reply from Capital One today is an application form copy. Although it says "I have read the terms an conditions setting out the agreement with Capital One" and, "if my application is successful, I agree to be bound by these terms and conditions".

There is no mention of amounts, interest rates etc

HI

 

This in itself would be unacceptable even if on an aggrement as the OFT prohibits this kind of conditon how can you mak a decision to purchase when you do not know what it is you are purchasing. Not stating the APR and othe information about the product especially on a distance marketed product would benot be aceptable and not neet the requirements of the act.

 

Regards

Peter

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

That does clarify things a a long way as it says "to provide the debtor/hirer with a copy of the executed agreement".

 

Although i am still a bit confused as the whether an 'application form' is acceptable. CCA reply from Capital One today is an application form copy. Although it says "I have read the terms an conditions setting out the agreement with Capital One" and, "if my application is successful, I agree to be bound by these terms and conditions".

There is no mention of amounts, interest rates etc

HI

 

I think we really should accept that an application cannot be used as an agreement by now i will repost this again then i will not make any further coments on the matter.

DTI

RT Hon Ian McCartney MP

Minister for Trade Investment and Foreign Affairs

 

James Purnell MP

 

The Consttuency Office

Hyde Town Hall

Hyde

SK14 1AL

 

Dear James

 

“Thank you for your letter of 7th December on behalf of your constituent Mr Peter Bardsley of---------------------”

 

There follows some stuff about the section 77 requests not having to include a signature which is part of an ongoing dialogue we are having.

And continues

 

“Mr Bardsley describes a situation in which he was sent a copy of a company’s standard Terms and conditions when requesting a copy of a signed agreement form.

Just sending the terms and conditions is a breach of the ACT and the Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a true copy of the agreement.

 

If Mr Bardsley feels the rules are being flouted he should report the companies concerned to Trading Standards and the Office of fair trading. It is also a breach of the Act and the Regulations to send the application form rather that a true copy of the agreement.”

 

On the point that Mr Bardsley made on unscrupulous companies adjusting agreements……………………………………… ………………………………………………………………… ……..

 

 

 

Ian McCartney

Peter

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Regards

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

Hi

 

I may be mistaken about 'interest free' accounts. :o It's just that I have never received an agreement for a 20/40 week account but I have sometimes received one for a 100+ week account.

 

I have also had accounts with small stores, e.g. a school uniform supplier when my children were younger, and never had agreements with those either.

 

This needs to be checked further but unfortunately I don't have time myself this weekend as it's a busy one!

 

Anyone else know the answer?

 

Hi Pam

Found this

 

OTHER EXEMPTIONS

Regulated credit agreements for which there is no charge for credit and which satisfy the

conditions set out in the section on ‘exemption from the requirement to send a separate

notice of cancellation rights’ in the booklet Cancellable agreements (specialised types of

business such as catalogue mail order) are exempt from the requirements relating to the

disclosure of the APR and the inclusion of prescribed signature boxes and statements of

protection and remedies.

 

Pretty much everything you would expect in a normal agreement under the cca.

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

HI Z

 

Repayments are a prescribed term

 

Cheers Peter

[Peterbard]

Peter

 

so.... if they have calculated this wrong... is it unenforceable, or unexecuted??

 

ta

 

Z

#

 

Hiz

 

Unefroceable due to the fact that it was improperly executed.

 

Regards

Peter