Being chased for a debt that has already been settled.

[Admiral Cain]

Hi all,

 

Im new here and would like some advice.

 

What can I do if Im being harrassed by a bank and its collections agency over a 'debt' that I have repaid 5 years ago? The 'debt' was a bank charge that took me over drawn and of course the resulting extra punitive bank charges. I have several letters from my local branch and from other bank depts confirming that the debt has been settled.

 

I have complained officially to the bank and recently received a reply so half witted that absolutely proves that the complaints dept did not even call my local branch or contact the other depts concerned during their investigation of my complaint.

 

I have now written to several complaints mangers and the CEO of the bank complaining about the substandard adjudication with copies of all documents which corroborate my story. Im waiting for their response, but even if they find in my favour - Im STILL angry.

 

Questions:

1. Does being repeated telephone/ written to re-pay a debt that already been settled qualify as harassment?
   
2. Can I take legal action and is it advisable?
   
3. Can I report it to the Financial Services Ombudsman?
   
4. Who else can I report it to?

Once this fiasco is has been sorted out, I also hope to claim back those bank charges. Right now my complaint takes priority because I dont really want bailifs turning up at the door.

 

thanks in advance

[Admiral Cain]

I will be writing to the collections agency informing them that they must hold off on processing any information about me because I am disputing the debt.

 

Any advice on this letter will be appreciated.

 

thanks

[chesham]

The Administration of Justice Act 1970 S.40 makes it a Criminal Offence for a creditor or a creditor's agent (often a debt collection agency) to make demands (for money), which are aimed at causing "alarm, distress or humiliation, because of their frequency or publicity or manner". Equally, a creditor will be committing an offence if they falsely imply that non-payment of the debt will lead to criminal proceedings; or the creditor pretends to be someone they are not e.g. a court official or bailiff. It is also an offence to send a person a document which looks like it has been sent from a court.

 

If you feel you are subject to Debt Collection Harassment then this too could be classed as a criminal offence. Harassment can be verbal or in writing and would include making repeated calls to your workplace or in anti social hours. The Protection from Harassment Act makes it a Criminal Offence for any person to pursue a course of action "which they know, or ought to know, amounts to harassment of another person".

 

First step is to complain to Trading Standards. The OFT don't investigate these matters, but collects the information from other official bodies and can use that so that the guilty party could have their Consumer Credit License revoked in addition to a fine.

[Guest NATTIE]

which bank is it by the way? Have they provided a breakdown of the debt they say they have with you and proof of it?

[Admiral Cain]

which bank is it by the way? Have they provided a breakdown of the debt they say they have with you and proof of it?

Its Lloyds TSB. And no Ive never had a ful breakdown of charges. It has been the letters/ phone calls from their collection agents that have requested payment, Ive not had a letter from Lloyds asking me for money.

 

So there has been no proof of a debt supplied to me, only demand for payment. There couldnt be proof anyway as Ive paid it!. Someone at the bank isnt reading my file notes properly.

 

At the time (nearly 6 years ago now) I remember working it out that a bank charge took me over drawn by 95p. The resulting charges for being over drawn snowballed while I was away.

 

When I got back (in 2002) I paid off the money with a cheque immediately. I didnt query the bank charges at the time, I was just mortified that it had happened and paid it.

 

So you think I should write to bank/ collections agency asking for proof of the debt? Or should I just get straight on to Trading Standards?

 

Im furious.

[Guest NATTIE]

Did the bank send a letter to you at that time, to state it was settled?

[Admiral Cain]

Did the bank send a letter to you at that time, to state it was settled?

I dont have records from the time, but what I do have are 2 recent letters from my branch customer manager confirming the debt has been paid and the date it was paid off back in 2002.

 

In the letter she also states that she cant understand why Im still being pursued and she has called the Consumer Debt Recovery team herself and received guarantees from them that the payment information has been recieved, processed and passed on to the collections agency. I have this confirmed in writing direct from the Consumer Debt Recovery team as well as from my branch customer manager.

 

My branch manager also admits that it was originally a branch error that is the root of all this- they did not pass on news of my payment back in 2002 to the relevant bank departments- despite a letter from me requesting this at the time.

 

The branch know its been paid, and the CDR too, so why am I still hearing from the collections agency?

[Guest NATTIE]

well, tell the collections agency that the debt is now in dispute as the original debtor ie LloydsTSB have acknowledged that no debt exists.

[Admiral Cain]

well, tell the collections agency that the debt is now in dispute as the original debtor ie LloydsTSB have acknowledged that no debt exists.

Yes that letter is being written as I speak. Thanks chesham for the point of law.

 

My problem is that Lloyds TSB depts dont seem to be communicating with each other. And that they have lazy complaints officers who haven't the common sense to call either my branch or the CDR before writing to me.

[Admiral Cain]

Right:

 

Letter to my branch/ complaints dept director and managers and Bank CEO sent off.

 

Letter to Collections agency written and sent off.

 

Letter to their friendly door step collections people sent off.

 

Official complaint to Banking Ombudsman sent off.

 

 

Next: Reclaim the bank charges!!

[Jeff2000]

Hello AC,

 

It sounds like the debt collection people are trying it on to me.

 

Are they claiming they now own this debt??

 

I would write to them and tell them that you are dealing directly with Lloyds TSB over this matter. Then tell them you are going to report them to TS and the OFT etc about their collection methods.

 

You may also have a case for damages against this lot.

 

 

Good luck, Jeff.

[Admiral Cain]

Hi Jeff,

 

Yes, I believe they are absolutely trying it on with me. Any look through the correspondence shows they want to make it look as if they own this debt.

 

In my letter to them I have informed them AGAIN that this matter is in dispute with Lloyds TSB. I have asked them to prove that they own this debt and also to suppy me a copy of the credit agreement under the CCA.

 

I also refused to correspond with them any further unless they can supply all the above.

 

This whole thing is sooooo irritating. All it would take is one person with some commmon sense to call either my branch or other bank departments.

 

I even have a letter from my local branch ADMITTING that they made an error and had not informed the relevant departments at the time I made the payment.

 

I also have a confirmation letter from other bank departments acknowledging the transfer from my branch and that the matter is satisfied.

 

Rah!!

 

I tried Trading Standards in my area this morning, but turns out my local authority have contracted out their TRading Standards Dept to a quango called "Consumer Direct London"!! How can that happen?! I'm looking into it and will complain to them if I can.

 

I dont know what the remit of the OFT is- do they deal with individual cases?

 

Re damages: any advice you can offer, even its just general, would be appreciated. Thus far opinion seems to be it would take forever and probably leave me out of pocket. But I must say I am angry enough to pursue this now. Its just sheer ineptitude!

[Jeff2000]

Hello AC,

 

 

You could just ignore the debt company. They will probably threaten you with court action. Although they can only commence legal proceedings if they do actually own the debt. If they don't own the debt but still threaten legal action, then report this also.

 

I would still report them to Consumer direct and the OFT.

The OFT don't act on individual cases, but if others have also complained about this lot, then they may well start to investigate them. So whatever you think, do report them!

 

As long as you have proof that the alleged debt is settled with Lloyds TSB, then I wouldn't worry too much!

 

As for damage claims. Have a good look around some of the threads on this site. I am sure others have made claims for damages. If I find out anything I'll point you in the right direction. I am sure others will also be able to offer some help!

 

PS. It's a good idea to keep a log of the calls you receive from anybody you think are causing harassment! Dates, times, details of the conversation etc. Also try to get the name and log in ID of the caller.

 

You could also think about recording the calls. You can get a fairly cheap device from places like Maplins etc.

 

Best of luck, Jeff.

[Movingon]

What's the name of the debt collectors? They don't sound to me like any internal Lloyds department; they sound more like an external DCA who have purchased a "debt" which was still on Lloyds' records because of their earlier mistake. If that's so, then Lloyds are no longer involved and will be unlikely to do anything at all about it. What I suggest, if this is the case, is to write to the DCA with something like the following:

 

Dear Sirs

 

I can confirm that I am not in any way indebted to either your organisation or to Lloyds Bank. I have evidence to support that assertion. With this in mind, I have no intention of making any payments to you or to Lloyds Bank at any time in respect of this matter.

 

Perhaps in these circumstances you may find it more productive to have this matter adjudicated by a Court. Please note that I will vigourously contest and defend any such Action. If you do not intend to pursue this through Court Action then I require from you a written statement that you will no longer be pursuing the matter and that you will not resume so in the future.

 

Take note that any communication from you from the date of this letter forward which does not meet one of the above criteria will be logged and reported to the Police and to Trading Standards as harrassment which is an Offence under s.40 of The Administration of Justice Act 1970 and s.1 of the Protection from Harrassment Act 1997. This offence carries a potential prison term on conviction.

 

Yours faithfully

[Admiral Cain]

Stone laughter and Jeff,

 

thanks for the suport so far It has been good to be able to pick your brains. ok- By return of post (letter dated 29th Feb- that cant be right!!) I received a letter from one of the DCA- thanking me for my letter LOL!

 

They returned both my letter and the £1 postal order (for the credit agreement- statutory fee! ) and would like to advise me that they are no longer involved in this case and instead refer me directly to Lloyds.

 

Good news?... I hope anyway.

 

Still waiting to hear from Lloyds or the Banking Ombudsman.

Im currently reigning in my need to crow for now because Lloyds ineptitude thus far has been staggering, but I am rather gleeful.

 

Im continuing to ramp up the pressure on Lloyds this week. My letter to the OFT goes tomorrow and tomorrow I also have a meeting with Trading Standards. I dont hold out much hope, as my local authority are hopeless at most things. But it cant help to let Lloyds know that Im going to be a nuisance

 

thanks again!

[Admiral Cain]

For your information and for Google indexing:

 

Debt Collectors are called Intrum Justicia.

A nice ambiguous name and hellish to spell or search for if you only hear it in a message. Which I suppose is exactly why they chose it. Even my branch referred to them in a letter as Interim Justisia.

 

Intrum Justicia passed my case onto a door collection agency called Face2Face Contact- dont they sound a friendly and unintimidating bunch? It is these people who frightened me by hanging up on me when I tried to call them and threatening to appear at my door.

 

Its these Face2Face Contact people who wrote to me returning my letter.

[Jeff2000]

Hi AC,

 

It looks like the DCA are now backing off. This IS good news!

 

I must admit, I've not had the pleasure of dealing with Intrum Justicia.....yet! so I am not sure of how they operate. But my guess is they are all pretty much similar. You know, always pleasantly mannered, friendly, courteous and helpful!!!!

 

Anyway, it looks like you are doing just fine, so keep us informed of further developments.

 

Bye, Jeff.

[Admiral Cain]

HAAAAAAAAA!!!! I WON!!!! :D :D

 

A reply came today from a Director of Lloyds TSB Customer Service Recovery Centre admitting complete liability and culpability!

Clearly its pays to make a nuisance of yourself!! I had contacted all the Directors and Managers at BOTH CSRCs, plus the banks CEO as well as the lazy fool who originally adjudicated my case.

 

YESSSSSSSSS!!!! Im completely elated!!

Thanks to everyone who has advised me- Stonelaughter, Jeff2000, Nattie!

 

Upshot is the bank has accepted that the whole thing happened EXACTLY as I laid out. I was initially concerned as the letter seemed very carefully worded, … “ sorry for my being unhappy, for my concern and my inconvenience.” Rather than sorry for the errors, but those apologies came later in the letter and they kept coming! J

 

Im very tempted to post the letter up here, but Im not sure what the ramifications of that would be in my further communications/ negotiations with the bank. Im assuming these boards are combed daily by banks looking for people to mess with. Ive won and I don’t want any further recriminations. I’d appreciate some advice on this- how many other people post letters?

[Movingon]

First of all, MANY congratulations - the idiots take time to learn, but learn they DO!

 

Just post it; they cannot impose confidentiality upon you without your agreement, because there is no legal requirement for it; it would be interesting to see it!

 

Bear in mind my disclaimer, but I believe my advice to be sound.

[Admiral Cain]

Decided to quote selectively! There are four seperate apologies in the letter with admissions that everything I accused Lloyds of and challenged them on was true.

 

Here is the material part of the letter that I need advice on:

 

“I am very sorry for the concern and inconvenience that we have caused, and as a gesture of goodwill would like to offer you compensation of £100. If you would like to accept please sign the enclosed copy of this letter and return in to me in the reply-paid envelope (no envelope was enclosed LOL!!) I shall then send you our cheque.

 

If you do not wish to accept my offer then please let me know and I will then show you how to complain to the Financial Ombudsman so they can consider your complaint independently. (My complaint is already with the F.O.S!!)”

 

I am then given a date to get back to him by.

 

Now yesterday, before the letter showed up and as part of my ramping up the pressure on the bank, I saw a local Trading Standards officer. She was appalled, and told me to file an addendum to my complaint to the F.O.S - seeking corrective action of the administration of my account, claiming for the original over charge and also to claim compensation.

 

She suggested that I put a monetary value on my claim. I was reluctant as my efforts have always solely been about correcting a serious error- i.e being accused of owing money when I had paid. However the £100 figure offered today ultimately changed my mind. Its an insult.

 

 

This case has been a catalogue of avoidable errors that have accumulated over 6 years. Its probably affected my credit record (Im too chicken to look) and may have affected a family member’s mortgage application.

 

Ive been ignored, dismissed, shouted at, patronised and condescended to, hung up on, threatened with court, doorstop collections agents and bailiffs.

 

 

I’ve had my mother distressed and upset by constant phone calls. Its poisoned my relationship with her, because she thought I had done something wrong- because after all, why would a BANK be chasing me if I had genuinely done nothing wrong?

 

 

Ive had to take time out of my life to sort this out. Hours and hours drafting letters, researching, photocopying making phone calls , going into my branch, going back and forth to the Post Offices.

 

Essentially it has taken this bank months to write me a letter confirming everything I already knew.

 

The TS Officer suggested that I claim for

• My time
  
• Inconvenience
  
• Any annual leave I took off to visit my branch
  
• Resources used: printing, postage, phone calls, photocopying
  
• Also the fact the DCA hung up on me and were rude to a member of my family on the phone.

(One thing she did say was that in order to claim for worry/ distress/ upset I would have to be medically assessed as they are medical terms. She advised me to stay away from this kind of personal injury language. Any other advice about this? )

 

 

The TS Officer also said while the F.O.S take many months to adjudicate they generally offer half of what is claimed.

So ultimately what price compensation? I have a complete admission of error after error on their part.

 

The £100 IS an insult, but is it also just a starting point?

What would you ask for? Feel free to PM.

[Movingon]

I would go with the TS Officer's advice - personal injury is a devil to prove and will be vigorously defended; however when you write to the FOS make sure you say everything you said here so that they can take the amount of "inconvenience" caused to you into account. Make sure that you quantify the bulleted points above in hard cash and demand an additional amount to compensate you for your "inconvenience". I realise that that sounds a weak word, but like the TS guy said, if you use terms like distress etc you could be in court for years.

[Admiral Cain]

How do you calculate it though? How much do I charge my time at?

Do I have demonstrate that it did indeed take 2 hours to write a letter?

 

Do I pluck a figure from the air?

[Movingon]

No, you don't have to demonstrate that it took you 2 hours - just state the truth. Add up the hours you took and the time you took off work etc; quote the hourly rate your employer pays you (pro-rata if necessary) and state that as a reasonable value for your time. Charge them your time at that rate.

[Jeff2000]

Hi AC,

 

 

Congratulations!!! There was never a doubt about this one really!

 

I agree with the TS person, and Stonelaughter!

 

Just go and get 'em!!!

 

 

Good luck, Jeff.

[Admiral Cain]

Quick update.

 

Lloyds made an increased offer to £250.

 

FSO have contacted me and suggested that this was fair.

 

I explained I still wasnt happy simply because it had gone one so long and their investigation had been so inept. I had reported the error so many times and it had taken up so much of my time. Plus the DCA had been so aggresive and threatening in their dealings with me.

 

As if to prove my point, the DCA contacted me this week 'thanking me for my final payment.' I never paid them a penny, never accepted or acknowledged I ever had a debt with them. Grrr. I replied by return of post explaining this.

 

This morning I received an offer from Lloyds via The FSO offering £300 as full and final payment. Do I accept it or do I send them a copy of Intrum Justicia's latest disengenuous missive?