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    • Post in Suing a parcel delivery company when you don't have a direct contract with them – third-party rights Copy of judgment available

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      We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

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      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Parcel delivery insurance is prohibited under section 57 – Consumer Rights Act – Read about It Here and in The Times.

My 6+ Year Claim Against HSBC

Spiceskull

By Spiceskull
in HSBC Bank

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Spiceskull

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After the excitement of the last few days (breather taken) I am going to pursue two new claims against HSBC: This one will be for claiming charges that fall outside the six year limitations period.

 

To start with I just want to throw a few ideas about. I will pick up on this properly after the weekend (and after some beer) but for those that have questions or suggestions about this issue with HSBC, you are welcome to put your views/questions on this thread.

 

My first problem/issue is that I have already made a DPA request for statements going back to 1982, and the reply was that information was no longer on file. I now have to look at other ways of making a reasonable calculation of what to claim...suggestions welcome. :p

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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Not qualified to make suggestions - but will watch your threads closely to see how this pans out - if you succeed you might get famous!! :D
Get famous? I'd rather get my money instead...:) But all suggestions and support are warmly welcomed...

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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That is what I am going to base my claim on. They don't/won't provide any details, so if it got to court they would have no way to contest my estimate with any hard data. If, however, they did have data to hand after all, imagine how that would look to a judge...

 

The other good point is that I asked for a full disclosure going back all those years, and I also asked for a copy of my original contract (sneaky) - therefore they cannot even fall back on contract terms to defend their position...

 

My only real concern is the court cost element. The claim will clearly be outside the £5K limit, and therefore I would be open to costs if I lose. I want to find out if there are 'scales' of cost - ie - between claim limits X&Y costs are capped at Z sort of thing.

 

As I say, this claim will take a lot of preparation, and reading, and I want to be sure of what I am doing before I do it...:p

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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Are you actually with HSBC? If so, I would be keen to see how they respond to your request for transaction history. I expect it will be similar to the response I received, but I do want to identify any loopholes/contradictions that may exist...

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

Spiceskull

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Brill - thanks.

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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I suppose you could theoretically splt it into chunks of under 5K using an estimate based on how much you were charged inside of the six years, but that might be walking on dodgy ground?
The problem with severing the claim is that, being the old git that I am, the process would take many months to complete...if I tried to run three or four claims concurrently it is very likely that they would request consolidation...and they would probably get it.

 

I'm going to take my time researching this before I put it together, because my calculations will also be complicated. I have to consider the charges themselves (I know that it wasn't £25 20 years ago) so will have to use some sort of reverse inflation technique (any actuaries out there???)

 

I also have to consider the 'billing cycle' as the interest element will probably be bigger than the charges element. Again, there are fluctuating rates going back 24 years to consider, and where to apply them.

 

The exciting thread to follow, and that I will be acting quickly upon, is the Charges Pending thread. This will be fast paced, experimental and recent - no messing about with DPA requests and the like. Go in - hit them with request - hit them with claim - get money. A few surprises to be included, so keep your eyes peeled...

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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I believe that £5k - £10k the maximum costs are £500, and £10k to £15k is £750.
Thanks for that Alan - as a rough estimate, and being realistic about the charges I will be claiming, I might just fall into that final bracket. Indeed, if the numbers are close I will adjust my claim to ensure that I do fall into that bracket...

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

Spiceskull

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Definitely request your contract - after all, they make many references to it when you ask for a refund, so it is clearly 'an important and relevant' document.

 

Will they send it? Probably not. Do they have to? Again, I'm not sure, but if it came to court and they relied on contract terms, you can demonstrate that you tried to settle via contract but the bank would not play ball...

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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Full DPA request made today - I know this was turned down before, but no harm in asking for the complete works rather than just transaction history:

Data Protection Act - full disclosure request:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

I am requesting a complete transaction history for the period from the initial opening of my account (mid 1982) to 31 March 2000. Alternatively a complete set of bank statements for this period will be acceptable. In addition to all transaction details, I am also requesting a copy of my initial contract with the bank (Midland Bank as it was at the time), along with a copy of the bank's terms and conditions applicable to this contract.

 

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you.

 

If you are unable to supply data relating to manual intervention because there has been no such manual intervention then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response to this request.

 

Furthermore, I am making this request as a Subject Access Request, subject to the Data Protection Act (1998), and duly enclose the requisite £10 maximum allowable fee.

 

May I remind you that you are obliged under the Data Protection Act (1998) to furnish me with this information within 40 days of receipt of the request. You therefore have 40 days in which to comply with this request.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Mr Skull

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

Spiceskull

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In anticipation of not receiveing statement history going back to 1982, I have started to create my spreadsheet to calculate charges and interest. However, I have hit an obstacle - the HSBC website has the authorised overdraft rate at 14.8%, but makes no mention of the unauthorised rate. I don't suppose anyone has this information, or knows where I can find it? Thanks.

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

Spiceskull

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Of course not 0 but putting 1998 in brackets always seems to do that...I know it's the smiley code, and that I could separate the 8 from the bracket...but hey...you complaining? ( 8 :cool: 8 )

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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The unauthorised rate seems to be the same, but on the website it says there is a '£25 overdraft review fee'. The Interest Rates are at http://www.ukpersonal.hsbc.co.uk/public/ukpersonal/personal_banking/useful_information/en/any_interest_rates_current_accounts.jhtml

Yes - that's all I could find too - the charge but not the rate...darn! Maybe I will have to ring the bank and ask a person...

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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Hi Jimmy,

 

Thanks for that - I think, though, that your source has got the figure wrong for HSBC - 14.8% is the authorised rate, unless of course they apply the rate across the board. Still, it's a starting point...:rolleyes:

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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Okey dokey - it seems that the consensus is that the rate applies to both authorised and unauthorised, so will make my calculations based on that figure...thanks guys. :p

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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DPA request delivered this morning by recorded delivery - confirmed on Royal Mail Track and Trace...

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Spiceskull

Spiceskull

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Very quick update: I was not intending to proceed with this claim until my parachute account had been opened. Clearly HSBC would see this claim as aggressively provocative, and would be likely to close my account.

 

However, proving my identity for openeing a new account is proving problematic. I appreciate the money laundering regs, but this is starting to become a joke.

 

Anyway, the update. Further to my DPA request, going back to 1982, this morning I received a response. As expected, they do not hold data going back further than six years. Furthermore, if they did, it would be held in a storage system not covered by the DPA. The same applies to my original contract.

 

Further guff about Ts&Cs, and how I have been updated periodically, but at the end of the day, the contract I signed with the bank is what counts. I have never signed updated Ts&Cs, and it cannot, therefore, be assumed that I agree with them, or even that I have received them...

 

Now the juicy bit, and this will be scanned for posterity:

Following a review of your account we have made a commercial decision to withdraw banking facilities. Blah...blah...clause 12.4 in our Ts&Cs. You have 30 days notice that we will be closing your current account...blah...blah. Despite not being willing to extend banking facilities beyond this date, we wish you well in your future endeavours.
Right...this is WAR!!!

 

They are not wriggling out of this, so I will be drafting a reply, and bringing forward my LBA. In a nutshell...

Notwithstanding your decision to close my account, and considering your response to my DPA request, I will be pursuing the bank for £K-VERYMANY in misappropriated funds that have been levied against my account...etc...
I am going to enjoy this so much...:mad::mad::o:mad::mad:

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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I did make a subject access request - the full letter states that they delete such information after six years. I now have this in writing, so I want to see how they can contest and disagree with my estimate...

 

Like you, they have made a fortune out of me, both legally and not so legally. But your analysis is right, I am now only likely to cost them money in the future.

 

With today's development, and with nothing at all to lose, I am going to push this claim to whatever court necessary to get either a full refund, or the bank's demonstration of their actual costs...

in this I can't lose...

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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Fattie says just to put the boot in, go to First Direct to open your next account, being owned by HSBC... etc... lol.:lol:
I might just do that out of spite...wonder how they will check my account history with other banks - after all, banks are not meant to share personal details...

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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Notice: Any HSBC Staff Following This Thread, Having Made A Connection Between This User Name And My Account - I Fully Intend To Pursue Not Only My Claim, But Also All Available Options Through The DPA. I Consider The Closure Of My Account An Act Of Spite, And Assure You That Even Though The Account Is To Be Closed, My Claims Against The Bank Are Not...

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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As part of my letter to the bank, requesting refund for charges back to 1982, I had considered asking for more details about this 'commercial decision.'

 

However, since discussing it with Vamp, I am now going to make a further 'full disclosure' request under the DPA, for ALL notes regarding this decision, as well as ALL notes regarding all decisions made since I started claiming.

 

In the first instance they cannot claim that nothing exists, and in the second instance, this is going to make VERY interesting reading...I look forward to seeing the notes about 'request denied' followed by 'full settlement made'...

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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As I say, I was hoping to delay this until my parachute account was operational. However, they have forced my hand, so all that remains is for me to take control back again...I must confess to feeling nervous. Not for the amount, and certainly not for the fight...I just wanted a little more time to compose myself...still, I'm sure I'll manage...

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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Update - being sent recorded delivery today:

Dear Sir/Madam

SORT CODE: XX XX XX

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXXX

Further to your letter of 25th May, indicating HSBC’s decision to close my account, I am requesting a complete disclosure of all notes applied to my account since Jan 1st 2006.

Specifically, I require details and notes pertaining to the following:

  • The ‘commercial decision’ to withdraw banking facilities from me, including the reasons, figures and decision makers involved
  • The bank’s refusal to refund ‘penalty charges pending’ to my account on request, and the subsequent decisions leading to those charges being refunded, notwithstanding the bank’s assertion that the charges are fair, transparent and lawful
  • The bank’s refusal to refund ‘penalty charges’ applied, since March 2000, to my account on request. After raising the matter in court, and notwithstanding the bank’s assertion that the charges are fair, transparent, lawful and would be defended in full, the subsequent decisions leading to those charges being refunded

Furthermore, I am making this request as a Subject Access Request, subject to the Data Protection Act (1998), and duly authorise you to debit the requisite £10 maximum allowable fee from my account.

May I remind you that you are obliged under the Data Protection Act (1998) to furnish me with this information within 40 days of receipt of the request. You therefore have 40 days in which to comply with this request.

Please also note, I intend to apply for a temporary injunction, to prevent my account from being closed on 26th June. Once I have received the above-mentioned notes and details, I will be in a position to decide whether or not to apply for a permanent injunction preventing account closure.

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

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The cool thing is I have 3 refunds behind me as a precedent, so any other refunds are purely academic...

 

Just got back from Whizz's hearing, so have not had a chance to follow up on the deliveries etc...I've a few hours catching up to do...

  • Confused 1

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Spiceskull

Spiceskull

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Quick update:

 

Letter (prelim and LBA in one) just sent to the bank requesting refund of charges between 1996 and 2000. My initial intention was to go straight back to 1982, but there was a huge cost risk in this. After advice, the claim is for a more modest amout, and if it is settled then I have the option, and the personal precedent, of going back through the mists of time bit by bit...to 1982.

 

A slight change from plan was to request interest at 14.8% APR, the bank's authorised rate. The argument is the bank would have charged me at this rate, and therefore "mutuality " and "reciprocity" has been brought to bear on the claim...

 

Will keep people updated on progress, but as I have given them 14 days before I raise a claim, I expect this to move quickly...:)

 

Developments too on the "charges pending" thread - specifically that they will apply further charges on July 7th - a fortnight after they close my account. There has to be a contract issue somewhere in all of this...

 

 

See the steps I took to get my bank charges back.

Spiceskull v HSBC.

Thank you Consumer Action Group.

Read my blog.

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Spiceskull

Spiceskull

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Blimey - expect one hell of a fight on this one.... either that or they are going to pay you off fast and dump you faster than a bad vindaloo.
My personal belief is that I will be the vindaloo - I think the "commercial reason" they are closing my account is that I will only ever cost them money. For them to defend in the small claims court, even if they win, will only cost them money they cannot recover...I hope they turn round, ask what I want to just go away, and then pay it...8)

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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