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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
    • Not sure what to make of that or what it means for me, I was just about to head to my kip and it's a bit too late for legalise. When is the "expenditure occured"?  When they start spending money to write to me?  Or is this a bad thing (as "harsh" would imply)? When all is said and done, I do not have two beans to rub together, we rent our home and EVERYTHING of value has been purchased by and is in my wife's name and we are not financially linked in any way.  So at least if I can't escape my fate I can at least know that they will get sweet FA from me anyway   edit:  ah.. Sophia Harrison: Time bar decision tough on claimants WWW.SCOTTISHLEGAL.COM Time bar is a very complex area of law in Scotland relating to the period in which a claim for breach of duty can be pursued. The Scottish government...   This explains it like I am 5.  So, a good thing then because creditors clearly know they have suffered a loss the minute I stop paying them, this is why it is "harsh" (for them, not me)? Am I understanding this correctly?  
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Arkanara v A&L


arkanara
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Hi there,

 

I have just recently reclaimed my bank charges from the A&L, a short while after we decided to reclaim my partners to from the Cumberland Building Society. Today we have received Defence and Counterclaim. Although i have read what I can it seems not many have done this and I am unsure what happens next. I know an allocation questionaire are sent out but its feeling increasing like we are going to be the losers in this and will end up paying them!

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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Yep........you will be on the winning side..the only loser will be the bank;)

Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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Thanks guys.

 

The only thing I am a little worried about is the content of the defence and the counterclaim. I have read claims dating back quite a few months and do I not have to do something in reply to this counterclaim or do I just wait for the AQ?

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  • 2 weeks later...

The Cumberland Building Society have filed a defence after MCOL was issued.

 

The words 'without predjudice' are in a couple of paragraphs of the 12 page long defence. I was confused by this as I thought that meant that it could not be used as evidence in court if this was stated?

 

They have stated that their charges are 'liquidated damages'.

 

It is just a little scary not having a forum to post on and get the help and advice of others. I recently was successfull in reclaiming my charges from A&L and hads so much support in the forum, also it didn't get to this stage so this is all a bit new for me.

 

Sny comments would be appreciated. Many thanks.

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Even if you cant scan the papers, why not transcribed the bits you are particularly concerned with?

 

Unfortunately a couple of words alone don't convey the context or meaning of what the issues are.

 

Do you have a thread started anywhere for this claim, it would be helpful then you could post all the details and if necessary send or post the link to ask for support.

 

HTH

 

Glenn

Kick the shAbbey Habit

 

Where were you? Next time please

 

 

Abbey 1st claim -Charges repaid, default removed, interest paid (8% apr) costs paid, Abbey peed off; priceless

Abbey 2nd claim, two Accs - claim issued 30-03-07

Barclaycard - Settled cheque received

Egg 2 accounts ID sent 29/07

Co-op Claim issued 30-03-07

GE Capital (Store Cards) ICO says theyve been naughty

MBNA - Settled in Full

GE Capital (1st National) Settled

Lombard Bank - SAR sent 16.02.07

MBNA are not your friends, they will settle but you need to make sure its on your terms -read here

Glenn Vs MBNA

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Hi Arkanara,

 

What sort of account was this? What were the charges for and how much were they.

 

Do you have access to a scanner?

 

Hi zootscoot,

 

Thank you for your reply. The account is a basic current account, it was in its early stages a business account but was then transfered to a basic account. The charges are for Failed DD, SO etc and the total including interest is around £2000.

 

I do have access to a scanner, what would you like me to do?

 

Thanks, Em.

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Hi Arkanara,

 

Had a look at the defence and it really is one of the worst I've seen yet, although not for you, it is pretty good for you.

 

Most points are just denial without any substance. Interesting that they are actually claiming the charges are fair as they allow their good customers to enjoy free banking which is subsidised by charges. I think they have shot themselves in the foot with that one! To amount to a liquidated damages clause they have to show that they have made a genuine pre-estimate of any loss flowing from your breaches of contract not that they are allowed to charge you for services provided to other customers!

 

They have also put in a counter claim for their legal fees. They can not do this if it is in small claims court as it would be against public policy and directly contradicts the CPR. To add insult to injury they are also claiming interest on their legal fees! They probably haven't even paid these yet and won't get paid until after the trial so what interest can they incur?!

 

Probably the sort of defence you would expect from a company named after a sausage!

 

It seems that this is simply a scare/delaying tactic so stick to your guns. You will get your allocation questionnaire in the next few days so just proceed as normal, although you'll need to raise a defence to their counter claim.

 

 

All the best

 

Zoot

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Probably the sort of defence you would expect from a company named after a sausage!

 

 

PMSL

 

Can a sausage sue for defamation? Anyone using your name is such a shoddy fashion is surely defaming you?

 

GLenn

Kick the shAbbey Habit

 

Where were you? Next time please

 

 

Abbey 1st claim -Charges repaid, default removed, interest paid (8% apr) costs paid, Abbey peed off; priceless

Abbey 2nd claim, two Accs - claim issued 30-03-07

Barclaycard - Settled cheque received

Egg 2 accounts ID sent 29/07

Co-op Claim issued 30-03-07

GE Capital (Store Cards) ICO says theyve been naughty

MBNA - Settled in Full

GE Capital (1st National) Settled

Lombard Bank - SAR sent 16.02.07

MBNA are not your friends, they will settle but you need to make sure its on your terms -read here

Glenn Vs MBNA

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Zoot, you have no idea how much I appreciate you taking a look at that for me. Thank you.

 

As far as the counterclaim goes, how would I file my defence? I have filled in my A/Q and am ready to take it to the court with the fee. Nothing was mentioned in my docs from the court about the counterclaim so a little unsure about this one.

 

Thanks again.

 

Em

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Hi all,

 

Can anyone advise me on how to raise a defence to a counterclaim or tell me where i can find info about this?

 

I can't seem to find anything and nothing was mentioned in the documents from the court so I am a little unsure.

 

The Building Society in question are counterclaiming for their costs as well as Interest.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Many thanks.

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Has anyone had to file a defence to a counterclaim? I really would appreciate any help anyone has to offer on this. I'v searched all over and cannot seem to find any information on doing this.

 

If anyone can help I really would appreciate it, i've successfully claimed my bank charges back from A&L but they didn't take it this far so unknown territory here!

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Hi again,

 

I sucessfully reclaimed my bank charges from A&L recently. I done this only with the help of this forum. I am now claiming from a building society in the North, there is no forum here for them as they are quite small. However they have filled a defence and counterclaim which is new territory for me.

 

I have had the defence looked over and am ready to take back the AQ with the fee back to the court but unfortunately I have no idea how to raise a defence to their counterclaim which I know I need to do. The details are in the link below any help really would be appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/36903-defence-filed.html

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Thanks Karnevil, i am grateful for your help. I am by no means an expert on this but I have attempted below my defence. Please tell me what you think.

 

 

 

 

Claim No -----------

 

********************************************* Claimant

-and-

CUMBERLAND BUILDING SOCIETY Defendant

 

 

DEFENCE

 

  • This defence is prepared to the contention that the defendant has made a counterclaim for costs and legal expenses. Set out in paragraph 26 of the defence includes a counterclaim for the defendant to charge the claimant for any loss or expenses suffered by the defendant in connection with the account in question. This is denied due to the costs being a disproportionate penalty.

  • In defence to paragraph 27 and 28 of the defendants counterclaim where the defendant is claiming the legal and administrative costs of these proceedings aswell as interest. This is also denied as claiming for these in a small claims court would be against public policy and directly contradict the CPR.

STATEMENT OF TRUTH

 

I believe the facts stated within this defence to be true and comprising of 1 page.

 

 

Dated: 17 October 2006

 

Signed

***********

Claimant

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Sorry Arkanara I meant to get back to you on this earlier, but then got interupted and then forgot. Karnevil is doing a great job!

 

You might also want to have a look at this thread for a similar defence to a counter claim although conerning a mortgage.

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mortgage-companies/32915-these-guys-don-t.html

 

All the best

 

Zoot

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Can you type out 27 and 28 of their defence on your thread ?

 

27. In the premises, the Claimant claims, as a matter of contractual entitlement, its legal and administrative costs of these proceedings.

 

28. Further, the claimant claims interest on those costs and expenses under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at such rate and for such period as the Court shall deem fit.

 

I will take a look at the thread you suggested. Thank you both for your attention to this.

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I have amended slightly, is this any better and would it be acceptable?

 

 

 

Claim No -----------

 

********************************************* Claimant

-and-

CUMBERLAND BUILDING SOCIETY Defendant

 

 

DEFENCE

 

  • This defence is prepared to the contention that the defendant has made a counterclaim as set out in paragraph 26 of the defence that the defendant is entitled to charge the claimant for any loss or expenses suffered by the defendant in connection with the account in question.

I. In the event that the defendant is counterclaiming for actual costs resulting from the claimant contractual breaches and not litigation costs; then the claimant pleads as follows:

II. That this counterclaim for the actual costs is an abuse of court process because the claimant had repeatedly asked for the actual costs incurred as a result of the claimant breaches but the defendant failed to reveal the details of their penalty-charging regime; had these been revealed perhaps there wouldn’t have been a claim brought against the claimant in the first place consequently, the claimant would respectfully ask that the court in this case, not withstanding allocation to the small claims track, order standard disclosure. The claimant understands that it is in the courts discretion to do so. The claimant believes this would bring a rapid end to this litigation.

  • In defence to paragraph 27 and 28 of the defendants counterclaim where the defendant is claiming the legal and administrative costs of these proceedings aswell as interest. This is also denied as claiming for these in a small claims court would be against public policy and directly contradict the CPR.

STATEMENT OF TRUTH

 

I believe the facts stated within this defence to be true and comprising of 1 page.

 

 

Dated: 17 October 2006

 

Signed

***********

Claimant

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Please don't apologise like I say i'm extremely grateful.

 

26. Under Clause 8.1 of the Investment and Current Account Conditions which apply to this account, the Defendant is entitled to charge the Claimant for any loss or expense suffered by the Defendant in connection with this account. Such loss and expense included the legal and administrative costs and expenses of these proceedings.

 

At the end there is this -

 

AND the Defendant counterclaims:

 

(1) Costs and expenses as a matter of contract as set out in Paragraph 27 herein;

(2) Interest;

(3) Alternatively to (1), the costs of these proceesings as a matter of the discretion of the Court;

(4) Such further or other relief as may be necessary or desirable.

 

Thats the lot, everything in their counterclaim.

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Ok I have amended the parts you suggested Karnevil, thanks. However I cannot find the part within the CPR which says they cannot claim for these expenses. I have searched most of the day. That is all i need for it to be finishes i think. Here is what i have so far, like I say all i need is the rule.

 

DEFENCE

 

1. This defence is prepared to the contention that the defendant has made a counterclaim for costs and legal expenses.

2. Set out in paragraph 26 of the defence includes a counterclaim for the defendant to charge the claimant for any loss or expenses suffered by the defendant in connection to the breach of contract by the claimant in respect of the account in question. This is denied due to the charges taken from the account by the defendant being a disproportionate penalty.

3. In defence to paragraph 27 of the defendant’s counterclaim where the defendant is claiming the legal and administrative costs of these proceedings. This is also denied as claiming for these in a small claims court would be against public policy and directly contradicts the CPR.

4. In defence to paragraph 28 of the defendant’s counterclaim where the defendant is claiming Interest on the costs and expenses,

this is denied using the reasons set out in Paragraph 3.

Any comments or help with the rule would be really helpful.

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There is no need to reproduce it in full. Simply mention that legal fees are not recoverable in actions in the small claims under CPR 27.14. You may need to include a copy of the CPR in your document bundle if it gets that far.

 

You could perhaps also mention the overriding objectives of the CPR which provide an obligation on lawyers to deal with cases justly and to ensure that parties are on an equal footing. As you have no reciprocal right to claim legal costs and as an individual with appearing in person it would place you at a substantial disadvantage; particularly as your opponent is a large financial institution with easy access to legal advice and representation and an ability to bear the burden of those costs.

 

You might also want to have a look at the actual wording of the clause they rely upon to see if it covers the situation of defending themselves in a claim by you for their unlawful activity.

 

You could also lodge a complaint with the Law Society about the solicitor's abuse of process.

 

Hope this helps

 

Zoot

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Also, if you have not received any notice from the court regarding this it could well be that they've slipped this in their defence to scare you with out formally issuing a counterclaim with the court. If this is the case, it is still worth lodging the defence with the court to draw attention to their underhand tactics. This will hopefully result in a speedier end to the matter.

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Good thread

 

Just posting for a e mail link to this one.

 

Cheers

 

MF5

 

PS don't worry Zoot I'm not stalking you !

 

Regards

 

MF5

Halifax Bank plc £1573 settled 19/6/ 06 :D

 

Abbey National PLC

Settled in full £1,754 15/9/06 :grin:

 

Halifax Credit Card £441.63 settled in full 27/10/06 :-)

 

 

Mortgage Express ERP

Pre letter 10/7/06

LBA 27/7/06

MCOL issued 6/9/06

Court Date Feb 06

Lost in court costs awarded £7,500PAYPAL [email protected]

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Once again Zoot, thank you so much! I will amend to make a final draft and take that into the courts with the AQ.

 

With regard to them not entering the counterclaim with the court I received two copies of the defence, one from them and one with the AQ from the court, which are both identical. Seems they really are having a poor attempt.

 

Hopefully once this is handed in they will pay up, the legal side of things really isn't my forte and i get worried quite easily. In comparison A&L were a very easy to crack!

So to all those at the beginning or in the middle of their process, keep it up!

 

Many many thanks for the support, Em.

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