2 x PCN whilst on holiday

[nategs500]

Hi All,

 

I went to the US on holiday in march and left my bike outside my flat on the road for the two weeks I was away. During this time on the 12th and 13th of march I received a PCN for each day. Before I went away there were no signs to say that the bays would be suspended, in fact there were signs from a suspension from the previous week.

 

I returned home on the 14th and found the two tickets and the new suspension sign. I decided then (after having other PCNs overturned) that I would appeal.

 

On the ticket it stated to make the appeal i would have to wait for the NTO which has arrived today for the second ticket. Looking on the back of the NTO it only has 7 options to choose from. I am not sure which to choose as none seem to apply.

 

Do you think that if I send proof that I was not in the country at the time They may let me off with at least one of the tickets, or am I dreaming?

 

Thanks for reading the long post.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I do not know how long in advance temporary restrictions/suspension of parking bays have to be signed for in order to become effective. Someone like Green and Mean will know I am sure.

 

Here's what my approach would be:

 

It is not uncommon for people to go away for two consecutive weeks and I would argue that any reasonable council should be aware of this and anticipate it in planning their temporary restrictions/suspension of bays. I would therefore suggest that the failure to give at least two weeks notice is a failure of their overriding obligation to treat the motorist fairly.

 

Therefore I would appeal on the basis that "the contravention did not occur" because of inadequate signage of the restriction/suspension and further that "the penalty exceeds the applicable amount" because the penalty for an unlawful restriction is nil.

 

Irrespective of the legal position, this is a situation that any reasonable council should have addressed in its discretion policy. So you should make a separate request (under FOI) for a copy of that.

 

Be prepared to take this to the adjudicator though. It won't cost you any more to do so.

[nero12]

Hi All,

 

I went to the US on holiday in march and left my bike outside my flat on the road for the two weeks I was away. During this time on the 12th and 13th of march I received a PCN for each day. Before I went away there were no signs to say that the bays would be suspended, in fact there were signs from a suspension from the previous week.

 

I returned home on the 14th and found the two tickets and the new suspension sign. I decided then (after having other PCNs overturned) that I would appeal.

 

On the ticket it stated to make the appeal i would have to wait for the NTO which has arrived today for the second ticket. Looking on the back of the NTO it only has 7 options to choose from. I am not sure which to choose as none seem to apply.

 

Do you think that if I send proof that I was not in the country at the time They may let me off with at least one of the tickets, or am I dreaming?

 

Thanks for reading the long post.

can you scan the tickets and the nto in ( leave out personal details)

 

firstly you have an arguement that you were not in contravention when you parked up.

 

I would also write and ask for the temp traffic order for that street, and details of when the sign went up.

Hopefully they may use their discretion and cancell these tickets when you prove you were on holiday but for now post up the paperwork.

[nategs500]

Thanks guys...

 

Let me get the scanner plugged in and I will upload the tickets and nto.

[nategs500]

storage. natethegeek. com/nto.jpg

 

storage. natethegeek. com/PCNnategs.jpg

 

You will need to copy paste and remove spaces sorry...Hopefully you can see them ok

[nategs500]

I found a pdf that i will link to after 5 posts i cant seem to get the url in at the moment.

 

On page 8 it says they may consider if you are broken down and cannot move it. There is no way i could move it from the states would this be worth mentioning in my representation?

[nero12]

storage. natethegeek. com/nto.jpg

 

storage. natethegeek. com/PCNnategs.jpg

 

You will need to copy paste and remove spaces sorry...Hopefully you can see them ok

Tickets seem ok,(ya boo sucks)

however if you wait there are experts who will verify.

 

For now, in my opinion you have an appeal in that you were not parked in contravention when you left your vehicle.

 

To assist with your appeal, You should ask for the temp tro, details of when this sign actually went up, and details of the discretion policy document they should refer to when situations such as this arrise.

 

Bernie_the_Bolt's advice is sound also.

[nategs500]

Thanks,

 

I will draft a letter tomorrow and post to see what you all think.

 

Thanks for all your help so far.

[green_and_mean]

I do not know how long in advance temporary restrictions/suspension of parking bays have to be signed for in order to become effective. Someone like Green and Mean will know I am sure.

 

There is no legal requirement to give advance warning since suspensions also cover emergencies such as gas main repairs which could be required instantly.

The TRO and permit scheme paperwork should explain this fact and that it is the owners responsibility to check daily as the bays can be suspended at any time.

A same day or next emergency suspension could be considered grounds for cancelletaion of a PCN but if 2-3 days notice was given the Council are legally in the right to enforce the PCN and this has been reflected in adjudication on the matter.

[green_and_mean]

Tickets seem ok,(ya boo sucks)

For now, in my opinion you have an appeal in that you were not parked in contravention when you left your vehicle.

 

Totally irrelevant from a legal point of view, if you park on a permit bay that starts at 8.00am at 6.00am you are not in contravention at the time you parked but still liable if the car is still parked at 8.05am.

If going away for 2 weeks it would have been advisable to contact the Council to find out if there were any planned suspensions.

[nero12]

Totally irrelevant from a legal point of view, if you park on a permit bay that starts at 8.00am at 6.00am you are not in contravention at the time you parked but still liable if the car is still parked at 8.05am.

If going away for 2 weeks it would have been advisable to contact the Council to find out if there were any planned suspensions.

fair point, but dont the LA have a duty to warn of an impending bay suspension like errecting apropriate signs.

[green_and_mean]

fair point, but dont the LA have a duty to warn of an impending bay suspension like errecting apropriate signs.

 

Yes but expecting signs 11 days in advance is not in my opinion a reasonable expectation.

[nero12]

Yes but expecting signs 11 days in advance is not in my opinion a reasonable expectation.

 

ok I see what you are saying but doesnt this work both ways,

there must be a definitive answer to this ie there must be clear set out rules which must be followed and me wonders weather they have indeed been carried out.

 

would this not be the angle of approach do you think?

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Yes but expecting signs 11 days in advance is not in my opinion a reasonable expectation.

 

Therein lies the beauty of our system. I think it is a reasonable expectation. I think that it is perfectly reasonable for LAs to be aware that people go away for two weeks holiday and that they should sign accordingly (emergencies excepted). All you need is an adjudicator who will agree with this!

 

I don't think it is reasonable for people to be expected to contact their LA and ask about planned suspensions. Not least because the chances of getting any answer let alone a straight one are slim.

 

Again, I think that this is a matter that should probably be in the discretion policy, if not, then it will strengthen the argument.

[green_and_mean]

Therein lies the beauty of our system. I think it is a reasonable expectation. I think that it is perfectly reasonable for LAs to be aware that people go away for two weeks holiday and that they should sign accordingly (emergencies excepted). All you need is an adjudicator who will agree with this!

 

I don't think it is reasonable for people to be expected to contact their LA and ask about planned suspensions. Not least because the chances of getting any answer let alone a straight one are slim.

 

Again, I think that this is a matter that should probably be in the discretion policy, if not, then it will strengthen the argument.

 

Why not make 3 weeks holiday reasonable....or maybe a month? Where do you draw the line, whatever you do they will be someone who says its unreasonable!

If I want to put a skip outside my house or take in a large delivery should I really need to give my neigbours two weeks notice to get the bay suspended?

If the Council cannot foresee if there are any planned suspensions how can they be expected to errect signs?

[green_and_mean]

ok I see what you are saying but doesnt this work both ways,

there must be a definitive answer to this ie there must be clear set out rules which must be followed and me wonders weather they have indeed been carried out.

 

would this not be the angle of approach do you think?

 

For planned suspensions its generally 2-3 days in advance but as I pointed out the Council can suspend instantly if required for road works etc.

[Rob S]

Yes but expecting signs 11 days in advance is not in my opinion a reasonable expectation.

 

It might not for you, but I'm sure the majority of us what regard it as a a reasonable expectation for a local authority to give sufficient notice of a suspension.

[Rob S]

Why not make 3 weeks holiday reasonable....or maybe a month? Where do you draw the line, whatever you do they will be someone who says its unreasonable!

 

And from the other perspective the local authority should use its discretion in situations like this and cancel the PCN's. But I suspect with your anti motorist bias you wouldn't see that:rolleyes:

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Why not make 3 weeks holiday reasonable....or maybe a month? Where do you draw the line, whatever you do they will be someone who says its unreasonable!

 

Reasonableness is an elastic concept.

Sadly the thing that has to be shown is not that you were reasonable but that the LA have been either unlawful or grossly unreasonable.

I still think that the best chance here is that the LA may have unfairly and unlawfully not considered exercising discretion here.

[risingstar]

I'm on same boat too