hmmmmmmmm P2 could be the back of the agreement.....in which case you could be in trouble........ HOWEVER.....I see no mention (my eyes are quite bad though) of T&C's overleaf.......there doesnt seem to be anything to link the two pages..... as regards "the four corners"....that reference is often taken wrong. it was made to express the opinion that the prescribed terms and the important stuff should be in the same document......not in a separate booklet. A document can run to hundreds of pages, though in our cases 2 or 3 is usually the case. hope this helps........read up (google if necessary) on wilson v hurstanger and wilson v secretary of state 2003. rgds Dave

Hi DD...... thanks for the comments...... If you have done any reading of this thread, you will have found out the sort of person I am..... Initially my life, through either bad choices or circumstances took a downturn and the creditors started calling, I borrowed to pay debts off and lived on my cards........nothing extravagant....just living. Then the money ran out, and it seemed like no way out. In some moments of severe depresion i considered the ultimate sanction...... But I have come back from the brink and am fighting back. I have a wonderfull wife and 3 great kids. No more will I bow down to bullies, and I have NO morals at all when it comes to creditors who use every dirty trick in the book to make your life a misery. My last loan was with RBS... I went in one day to put some money in.....came out with a £15k loan ???? even though I didnt earn enough they took tax credits and child tax credits into account (even though they would be changing)...they new what they were doing even put PPI on even though it was useless (self employed) Anyway ...enough whinging Life is now 100% better even though it is still a struggle I'm not frightened anymore rgds dave

There is also nothing wrong (apart from your own morals that is) with getting the agreement declared unenforceable, and getting a write off. I would not reproach anyone for that stance, as Bennion stated "if they cant be bothered to get the detail right they deserve to lose all right to the money" I paraphrase of course rgds dave

Hi Iwannawinlotto I havenet had the email.....yet just been checking my junk folder and nothing. will pm my email and an alternative......both are private rgds Dave

I wouldnt worry too much....its unenforceable as it stands It does no have (anywhere that I can see) the prescribed terms. these are credit limit, rate of interest, repayment schedule. As far as I can make out there is no reference to t&c's overleaf either. Rgds Dave

Hi guys...... Serious head on for a moment..... Over the past few weeks I've had some pm's from people, Enquiring as to how to go about what I am comtemplating........as regards reclaiming interest paid. BE WARNED....it is not suitable for everyone, the risks are huge and the chances of winning are only so-so.......the costs involved could be enormous. I hate to state the obvious...if you have to ask, then you obviously havent looked deeply enough into it. you need to know the subject inside out. Its not really something where you can "wing it" I have studied the caselaw and precedents, and the relevant laws over the last 18 months or so and to my belief, *** I *** have a case. This will probably go to a high court and the costs to the losing party will be huge. If you are contemplating such an action, I would put it on hold for the time being (unless you are a secret millionaire) Serious head off now.......... rgds to all Dave

been there ...done that about two years ago.......I was fortunate as the banks hadnt quite got their act together and were all doing different things. I got my signed agreements no problems at all........... However I think that they must have all been to a meeting or something because they all sem to toe the same line Dave

Hi Taz...... there are a number of scenarios and each requires a slightly different approach 1 they dont comply within 40 days......send the non compliance letter and a complaint to the Information commissioners office.... 2 they only partially comply...ie some info but obviously some missing....sort of same as above.....but edit the letters to suit 3 doesnt look like youre getting anywhere fast....lots of runaround etc go for the CPR approach....... BE AWARE that the overiding objective is for the parties to settle their differences out of court, and that litigation should be seen as the last final step. The courts will not look favourably on anyone who seems to be rushing headlong into litigation without giving the other party a reasonable chance at negotiation/arbitration/settlement. it takes time......sorry rgds Dave

What they have sent you probably complies with a s77-78 request.......although if the had the original why didnt they just photocopy it and send it on????? try looking here...> http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html try this approach and see if it gets you anywhere..........but read it first and try to understand the process Rgds Dave

As it stands....it has your Signature and the prescribed terms, it can be proved that you had the money. it is MY opinion and only my opinion that you would have an extremely hard time getting that one kicked out 127 Enforcement orders in cases of infringement (3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner). I hope I am wrong......and that they HAVE made a mistake in the format of the agreement and done something wrong. All the figures seem to add up. The only thing in you favour is the nature of the agreement in sepperate sheets. I would think long and hard.... rgds Dave

Update........ After my recent flurry of letters and lba's.....Barclaycard (ex morgan stanley) from whom I'm claining charges, have written..... "We are sorry to learn of your dissatisfaction....blah blah blah.......we pride ourselves on the high level of customer service...etc...... We aim to try to resolve matters by 02 Feb........etc" looks like they are the first in court...the LBA runs out in a few days Once this is out of the way, I can concentrate on the main thrust rgds Dave

Not too sure on statutary demands...but the debt is statute barred if you havent paid anything or acknowledged the debt in 6 years someone will be along very shortly I'm sure dave

Ive been working on this for about 12 months.......getting my facts in place and studying the relevant legislations...... have a read through my thread.........http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/84285-ccas-dave-against-world.html draft POC is on p527, along with many questions and answers in the pages following it I sort of got sidetracked and didnt follow it through....BUT since new year they have had the LBA and things will be rolling soon Rgds Dave

Could really do with a definetive answer.......I have my own theories, but a second pair of eyes would be good.........Paul...hint hint Dave

One thing that always puzzles me about "electronic signatures" is the way that they can be so easily...............whats the word I'm looking for........"made up" Any fool at a computer can just print up a doc and put a tick on it....... I did some research a while back on copies of documents and the legalities involved in storing information electronically (digitally). http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1692605.html There must be systems in place to guarantee fidelity. Surely giving out a doc with a tick is just not good enough....it must be qualified by some sort of hash or at least an electronic "paper trail" time datestamp ip number etc.....and this should be supplied with the request they cant or shouldn't be able to get away with printing a doc and adding a tick to it. on the other side of the story, I can hear the judge say ..... "DID you fill in a form online?" .......did you get credit?"........"did you spend it ?"........... case closed.......enforceable!! As wrong as that scenario might be..... They NEED to look again at online applications...... rgds Dave

Actually Ive found out the comencement is May 31 2005 Dave

Pretty certain....SI 1983 / 1553 p4944 reg 2 schedule1 part1 Rgds Dave

You have understood well grasshopper...... Dave

Date is important....... prior to apr 2005 the 1983 regs were in force and they only specified a few headings....after 2005 the "credit CARD" term was added to the list of headings.... check carefully and in any case it would only make it improperly executed.......not a 100% defence Dave

sorry if the figures arent that clear.... I'll copy it here key financial information A loan..................... .... £15071 b term..................... .... 60 months c total amount payable.... £17971.80 d installments............. .... 60 x £299.53 loan £238.49 ppi £61.04 e apr...................... ........7.4% Other financial information a purpose and amount of loan £12000 ...to finance other debt b insurance loan...................£3 071 c total charge................... ...£2900.80....comprising interest £2900.80...admin £0.00 d annual rate of interest ........7.16% e payment allocation......etc Just thought I'd bring this back to the front for comments...... Dave

In the Civil Procedure rules there is a clause which states something like that where a case is brought because of a disputed document...the original copy must be available for inspection....or something like that...cant find the reference just yet..... So......to take you to court they MUST have the original........OR a certified notarised TRUE COPY...ie a photocopy. if they need this and must have it to bring the case...then it stands to reason that to settle the case without the need for court action it would be reasonable if they supply it via a cpr 31.16 "request"...failing that you can apply to the court for 31.16 disclosure of documents....they CANNOT refuse that. rgds dave

NOT necessarily..............many have tried, and SOME have been suscessful. if there are charges anyway, and i'm sure there must be ...A SAR would be the way to go anyway. ask Specifically for signed copies of any agreements. failing that a cpr 31.16 request looks the only way forward. Dont be too frightened, its shows that you are trying to resolve the dispute WITHOUT going to court. A cpr 31.16 will not necessarily mean that you have to go to court, BUT if they dont supply it then you CAN make an application to the court to force them to supply the info. rgds Dave

Correct....got it in one Dave

It doesnt take much time.......A few letters and you can decide for yourself Otherwise from the adverts Ive seen...its between £300 -£500 upfront then a percentage usually 20-30% of what you "win".........??? if you get the debt wrote off for example £5000...it'll cost you about £1500 So you will end up paying out £1500 (ish) you can do this yourself, unless you cant be bothered ??? your choice Dave

NO.... s3 of the consumer credit (cancellation notices and copies of documents....etc)1983 state that a true copy need not be a "photocopy", but should contain the "essence" of the agreement. Also it may omit some data...such as date and customers signature etc. --------------------------- 3 General requirements as to form and content of copy documents (1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof. (2) There may be omitted from any such copy-- (a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy; (b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of the signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies); © in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and [(d) in the case of any copy of an executed agreement given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the Act for fixed- sum credit, or under section 78(1) for running-account credit, under which a person takes any articles in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn.] My feeling on this is that it is wrong. They are misinterpreting s3 to there own ends. the section in red if interpreted properly says that anything that is required by the act MUST be included apart from signature......UNLESS it is a cancellable agreement (as most are) So it seems that they can leave very little out However if they wont play ball,,,,,,try a CPR 31.16 aproach http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html rgds Dave