Hi An Order for Sale is a Part 8 application, there is nod efence or reply - it is all done by way of evidence and witness statements. Anything you want to tell the court you MUST tell them in a witness statement. As you are representing yourself a Judge won't mind, but as this will be up for other people to follow, I thought I'd set it out so people in the future can read it. For a part 8 claim the claimant must issued ALL of the evidence they wish to rely upon at the point of issue, if they have not, then you can object to them relying on it (or agreeing to it, if it helps you). There is no allocation, but sometimes Court do send out allocation Q's, so ignore them, just call the court and remind them that a Part 8 is autmatically allocated to the multi-track. Defendant should then get all of their evidence together. If only one witness statement will be relied upo, put all of the evidence as Exhibits to that - or if there is more than one, get the evidence in over all of the WS's. It is very helpful to be able to object to further evidence and a reply by the Claimant. Make sure you have read as much as you can in the part 8 and the Part 8 Practice Direction. If it is the CSA doing an OfS it's important to demand all documentation as soon as they threaten it. Court almost always give an Order if they can see that you have had the opportunity of objecting to assessments (as in, you've had all this time and you only now want to object!). Give the Court an excuse to throw the application out, as they are obliged to give the Order except in exceptional circumstances - the CSA getting it wrong is one. Try and get an advocate to rep you at the hearing - Court's tend not to be overly interested in the emotional side, so if you can put forward a compelling and logical argument that the paperwork/assessments/calculations etc are wrong, a Court will jump at it, if they can. I hope that helps.

For a copy of an Order for Sale - look at page 6 of the Practice Direction: http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/pdf/practice_directions/pd_part73.pdf That will show you the wording that they must have, and as you can see, it gives the date of possesison - ORDER FOR SALE IS DIFFERENT TO MORTGAGE REPO

Hi I'm afraid Ganymede is wrong, sorry. A mortgage repo requires a second hearing, but an Order for Sale Order contains the date of possession. That date is then used to apply for a bailiff warrant, which will be one month or more after the possession date - see the practice direction which contains the draft order. The Order also contains the minimum price that the property can be sold at. Thsi is, basically, what an Order will contain: 1. debt + interest and date that it must be paid by 2. If payment is not received, the date of possession 3. The minimum sale price, and a para saying that the Claimant can take sale costs 4. The split of money (an OfS Order is different for jointly owned and owned by one person). This is why people need a solicitor before the hearing, at the hearing and after the hearing, because even if you lose there are ways of making the order better, such as asking for more time to pay, more to time for possession, and ensuring that the sale price is as near to 100% of the value as possible (many ask for it to be 75% or less of the value, and then wack it staright on to the market at the lowest figure for a fast sale). The Defendant must clear the property. Anything that is left may be taken (under a notice) within 28 days, anything left will be put in a skip or sold. It is theoretically possible to ask the Court to dismiss the claim without original copies of the charging order - and is something you should ask your solicitor to do. However, the Court will usually accept a copy of it. If they don't have it, they can apply to the court for a copy. As a charging order app and OfS app must be made at the home Court to the defendant, it is usually a case of going to the Court reception and asking for a copy of it. Make surwe you have read the civil procedure rules - Part 73 (http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/parts/part73.htm) and its practice direction. removed please read the forum rules

if it helps, I used a solicitors who specialise in this - given the dire consequences, I didn't want to do it myself. ** Post edited, Please read the FAQ's **- this guy used to do OfS actions for a the CSA- he does consumer credit Order for Sale and child support agency ones - give him a ring - he stopped mine being sold

No, call the sols and explain that you want the adjournment because of the redetermination and explain that after that you'll be agreeing a voluntary charge, then write a letter to the Court, and they'll send one agreeing to it (if they agree). Give me a shout if they don't. Who are the solicitors?

I'd ask for the CO hearing to be adjourned, use the fact that the redetermination is happening same day. See what the Judge says in the redetermination hearing. If you do agree to the Charge, certainly do not agree to interest. The County Court Act does provide for continued interest (at 8%) after Judgment on JUdgments over £5K, but "and continued interest at a daily rate" has to be in the Judgment, which it's not in this case. I know people on here probably won't agree with me, but my opinion is that the charge will be made no matter what, so save the costs/fees and agree to it, but only after the redetermination hearing. What I would be doing though is getting people to look at the terms & conditions of the agreement. It was produced when you were actually in the Court, so had no opportunity to seek advice as to its enforceability. I suspect that is because they knew that they would lose. Get people on here to see if it is enforceable, if not, bring it up with the Judge, say you think, on reflection that they would not have been granted the judgment had you had the opportunity to seek advice. Say, as this is the case, you should pay 1p a month until an appeal could be done. Bet the Judge agrees - but this does depend on the agreement being unenforeable.

Hi Me again. How much will the charge be for? I really, really would not agree to interest, especially if the charge is for a large sum (ie. over £10K). Did they claim interest past the default date in the claim? Have they suggested a draft Order yet?

Mate, I'm really pleased for you. As well as being a fantastic result for you (especially about sanitising your credit file!!), this thread will be invaluable for many other people. I will say, though, bad nes on the case about the Charging Order hearing not getting the set-aside. I know a case recently - CO had been in place, the chap had file an admission to the Judgment, but then started sending CCA requests after the Judgment. He was stat demanded, and he made a set-aside applic for that, and the judge areed that, despite all that had one on and that he had not made a set-aside of the judgment, she would set aisde the stat demand if the creditor could prove that the debt was an enforceable one (which they could not). All depends on which Judge you get. But, I am really happy for you for this result. Did you consider appealing the set-aside decision (pity I didn't suggest this at the time)?

Scott has kindly done that for me. Important thing to remember is that all of the letters you need to send are in the library on here. Send them an unsigned letter demanding a a CCA compliant and enforceable agreement together with a £1 postal order. They'll send back either a letter saying they've sent it back to client, or an agreement form or an agreement that is a) false or b) unreadable o c) unenforceable. Remind them they have 12 days to comply (though they can have 12 + 40). Then remind them that the debt is unenforceable. If they are stupid enough to send it to Court, get in touch. Good luck. Keep a copy of all letters etc.

I'll give you a hundred pounds if you go into the Court and say you can't pay much because you have just spend £8,000 on a massage chair and £7,500 on cleaning your moat!!! Seriously, if you've covered your I&E you're fine. If you keep to the amounts set by the Judge (ie. £25 per month) they can't instigate an OfS action. However, a thought has just occurred to me (happens about once a year). I know of a County Court action. A judgment was entered after the Def sent in the acknowledgement of service accepting full responsibility for the whole debt. Then a Charging Order was put onto his house. Then, because he was not paying the amount stipulated in the judgment, a stat demand was served on him. He applied for it to be set-aside. After the CO had been put on the property he THEN started sending a CCA request for an enforceable agerement, which was ignored because judgment had already been served. At the set-aside hearing the judge ordered the Claimant to produce a CCA compliant agreement, which they couldn't, so the stat demand was set aside, as would the judgment if the Def had not entered into an agerement to carry on paying £10 a month. Now, you may have agreed to the CCJ by admitting liability etc, but if you attend the Charging Order application (and asking for the redetermination to be adjourned because of it) and saying you do not believe now, having taken advice, that the Judgment was valid through lack of an enforcemeble agerement, you never know, the judge may (if you ask) demand that they prove the debt before he charges your house. Do the same again at the redetermination hearing, demanding that they prove the debt. It might not work, but it will be worth it to slow things down, and cause them more costs in having to do so.

Last year I started getting the usual threat letter over a Barclaycard, an overdraft and two loans. I sent the usual CCA letter with the £1 postal order, and a day or two later received a letter would appear saying they had sent the file back to their client. Eventually after a lot of these I sent a letter to Barclay's direct asking them to go away or sue me. I sent that in December. They sent letters every month saying they were looking into it. A short time ago I received a letter from them apologising but they could not find any loan in my name, would I care to write back with details of the dates of the loans and the account & sort codes for them? So, for all of you who are starting out, you can honestly get rid of them. Follow what people in here say, because they certainly helped me. Should any other demonic company now threaten me, I'll just send them a copy of Barclay's letter. Just be strong, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. BB

I'd suggest that an OfS action would not even be entertained (even if they threaten it, which they might) because of negative equity. If they threaten it, get your property properly valued and send it to them. As another one: make sure when you go to the redetermination you take as much evidence as possible as to your income & expenditure, Judges tend to be on your side if you're being on the level about what you have coming in and going out. Might help if you could "borrow" some expenses from someone else

Surprisingly, there are a number of judges around the Country who still do what they did upon entering law school - looking out for justice and defending those that need it. I know it sometimes seems as though this is not the case.

Sorry, I'll clarify in case people lose the point of what I said The judge did not care AT ALL whether this Defendant received the money, because he had admitted that he had received it and believed that he owed it (he even signed the admission to the claim form) the Judge was only interested in whether it was an enforceable debt and could the Claimant prove that!!!

Due to ethics and job safety, I must be very careful with what I write, so please don't ask me for specifics about the case, I can't answer. At a Court up North today, a Defendant (rep'd by a public charity) had a set aside application heard. He had been served with a stat demand by a solicitor's firm acting for a debt purchaser. The District Judge, of her own volition, agreed to hear a set-aside for the judgment first (today), with the SD set-aside to be heard later this month. The Defendant had been a bit stupid (he'd not looked on here until a LOT later) and sent in an admission to the claim form - but sent it to the Claimant and not the Court. The Claimant, being a bit desperate, sent in request for judgment before the admission was received - so a default was entered. After nasty threatograms the Defendant very stupidly wrote letters to the Claimant admitting the debt a few times. Then starting paying £10/m. Judgment was entered in March 08. Due to payments of £10/m on a debt in the region of £4,500 - £6,000, a charge was placed on the Defendant's property by the Claimant. Then more threatograms. Eventually, the Defendant must have found CAG and started sending in CCA requests - 8 MONTHS AFTER JUDGMENT WAS ENTERED, which were all ignored. A Stat demand was served on the Defendant. The Defendant applied for a set-aside, and the hearing was set. Now, evidence was an admission form, letters admitting the debt AND payments made towards the debt. Guess what the good old judge said today? The JUdge adjourned the hearing for 1 month, with AN ORDER that the Claimant provide the Court & Defendant with a valid CCA compliant agreement for the debt within 14 days. And we all know what that means? The judge has said that the judgment will not be up-held if an enforceable agreement is not produced - THIS IS ONE YEAR AFTER JUDGMENT WAS ENTERED. The Judge did not say "Did you borrow the money" or "Do you owe it" - because the Defendant provided the Curt with letters acknowledging the debt. The Judge did say though that if a valid agreement is produced s/he will have to find that the Judgment is valid and costs etc will be awarded. Then the set-aside for the SD would be heard. But, do you think that the debt purchaser (not the original creditor) will be able to provide a CCA compliant agreement in 14 days? They admitted they didn't have one at the hearing and had not sought it because the CCA request was made after judgment was entered. The Claimant solicitor who attended also gave the Court a copy of Rankine. The judge was not at all interested. So, I thought I'd share. I will, of course, try and persuade someone to seek a copy of the transcript if the Claimant losses to post on here. Now you know the answer - the judge will not ask, because it isn't at all relevant. As I said - don't ask specifics, I won't answer - in fact I could probably get sacked and sued just by putting this on - but this could not be a better boost for people who are suffering. Have faith demand a CCA compliant agreement and do not give up.

Who has the will?

Thought I'd put up what's happening with me now, to see if anyone else is getting the same, and also to give heart to those that are just starting the CCA request journey. I got a letter from Westcot last year. It was in relation to an alleged Barclay's debt. I had not been on here then, so wrote a load of useless letters that resulted in abusive letters from them. I found this place (Yippeeee!!!) and requested a CCA compliant agreement, and gave them a £1 postal order for it. One week later, they returned it, saying that they had returned instructions to their client, and I should contact them (Barclays). One of them gone. Regal were a bit different, and I've written about that elsewhere - they claim a debt, cannot evidence it, let alone provide a CCA compliant agreement. So, I demanded a debt from them that was as equally made up as theirs. They haven't gone away, but they won't even send letters now. Then on Monday I got a letter from ScotCall demanding another Barclays debt (I think it's the one Westcot had) so I sent them a CCA request on Tuesday (3rd) with a £1 PO, and it was waiting for me in the post-box today, saying that they are no longer dealing with it "it was returned to our client on 01/01/0001":eek:. Quite why they are sending them back as returned to client so quickly I am not sure, but it obviously does mean that they are now taking CCA demands very seriously. So, if you're on here frightened, look up the library letters, send a demand for a Consumer Credit Act compliant agreement together with a £1 postal order. It seems to be working. I do have another one which arrived a couple of weeks ago for a Barclaycard debt (again, not one of mine). I'm playing with them though, trying to waste their costs a lot

I get paid Friday, so will send £20 - sorry it can't be more, but if everyone puts their hand in. Good luck

Hi I actually had a look into this today. It might be a treck, but would be worth it. Under the Mental Health Act, a person suffering under a serious mental illness cannot be held liable for entering into contracts etc, if the illness took away their capacity to sign. If you have a CPN or your psych, who can agree that at the time of either entering into the agreements that led to debt (if, for instance, you were going through a high and spent all your money and got loans on top - a usual sign) then those agreements can be set aside. In addition, though someone else would have to agree with me on this, I would expect that a court would have sympathy and might consider that you did not participate in court action and have not previously brought a set aside because of your illness (you'd normally have to have brought one within 30 days). However, if you can anul the original debt because the debt was not enforceable, then I think there are grounds for appeal - but this would depend on: 1. When were the agreements? The further away the harder it will be 2. Can you prove that you were suffering under your illness at the time of signature (ie. were you sectioned shortly after? Can your CPN/psch agree?)? 3. When were the CCJs entered? I would call MIND or CAB or speak to your CPN and seek specialist mental health legal advce. I don't know where you are, but most large towns/cities have at least one very good mental health law firm. Go to the law society find a solicitor website as a last resort. Good luck - you sound like you're starting to get on top. If you need the nitty gritty of the law, give me a shout and I'll dig it out for you.

Hi Just wondering how you got on? Did you get served with the Stat demand? have you been in touch with the sols that served it? I'm asking because stat demands have certain time-lines that are important - and if you don't deal with them, the outcome can be sticky. Have you applied to have it set aside? Have you made an arrangement to make payments? Have they accepted it? Have they spoken to you? Have you now sent your subject access request off?

They claim a debt that does not exist, they keep trying to hassle me - so, seeking in injunctive relief and stopping them contacting me again would be a novel of making them bugger off.

As I said - I'd stick it in a statement, send it to them. If they ignore it and continue, then bring to the attention of a judge, and ask for a full costs order against them

Hi I'm having "words" with Regal - they claim a debt but are unable to evidence it (let alone provide a CCA compliant agreement). I have posted elsewhere on this. However, in my last communication to them (after I'd told them that they owed me £35K for a debt that I too was unable to evidence, but non-the-less it still stands etc etc) I told them I'd take out an injunction against them Has any done this? Has anyone got an idea as to costs of doing it as a litigant in person?

You quoted the case I was looking at - so yes, I do think you can kill this case, if it's not signed, or as you say incorrectly signed, they're screwed - well done!! Have you got the full judgment, or do you want me to email it?

wow, that went wrong a bit here's s. 36A Companies Act 1985 [36A Execution of documents: England and Wales] [(1) Under the law of England and Wales the following provisions have effect with respect to the execution of documents by a company. (2) A document is executed by a company by the affixing of its common seal. (3) A company need not have a common seal, however, and the following subsections apply whether it does or not. (4) A document signed by a director and the secretary of a company, or by two directors of a company, and expressed (in whatever form of words) to be executed by the company has the same effect as if executed under the common seal of the company. [(4A) Where a document is to be signed by a person as a director or the secretary of more than one company, it shall not be taken to be duly signed by that person for the purposes of subsection (4) unless the person signs it separately in each capacity.] (5) . . . (6) In favour of a purchaser a document shall be deemed to have been duly executed by a company if it purports to be signed by a director and the secretary of the company, or by two directors of the company, . . .. A “purchaser” means a purchaser in good faith for valuable consideration and includes a lessee, mortgagee or other person who for valuable consideration acquires an interest in property. [(7) This section applies in the case of a document which is (or purports to be) executed by a company in the name or on behalf of another person whether or not that person is also a company.] [(8) For the purposes of this section, a document is (or purports to be) signed, in the case of a director or the secretary of a company which is not an individual, if it is (or purports to be) signed by an individual authorised by the director or secretary to sign on its behalf.]]