A+ vs RBS & Apex (the telegram dogs)

[A+]

I CCAd RBS and advised Apex i was doing so back in September 08. Apex replied saying "Your account is now on hold".

 

I then got a package from RBS which claims to be compliance with my CCA request. I am in the process of scanning this and will post below shortly.

However one quick question at this stage...

 

Looking through letters, AFTER receiving the CCA response (with what they call a true copy of an agreement) i have had lots of letters from APEX Credit Management including their horrible undated telegram things (RING JEFF TODAY, RING Master Bates TODAY etc )

 

Just scanning through these, i notice the balance alleged is GROWING. first a few pounds between two letters, then a HUNDRED pounds between two letters with no apparent reason or explanation. I am at a loss as to what can be done about this? Can DCAs add their own costs to the debt? Surely not as i never entered a credit agreement with them even if i did with the OC (which for the record i didn't) therefore how they can just throw charges into the mixing pot? Dodgy swines, surely this is not legal?!

 

Posting RBS stuff below in a mo

Any help appreciated as always

[A+]

Here is covering letter which seems mildly interesting in itself!

Beneath it was a stack of stapled junk, the top page of which is being scanned now in high res, as it is less than A5 on the sheet here. Will post shortly...

[A+]

Here is next sheet, claiming to be valid CCA

 

[A+]

And since that left hand half looks irrelevant (just contained personal information about me) i have blown up the right half and posted below:

 

[A+]

Any comments from those in the know biz ?

[A+]

Here is the second sheet, which i assume is Ts and Cs. It was a separate sheet to the previous one with signature. Looks VERY different, this is clear, its full A4 and good quality. also not sure fonts match too well. Why is one A5 (agreement) and one A4 (ts and cs)?? maybe agreement was microfiched? Anyone know if RBS was fond of the wonders of microfiche technology?

 

[A+]

The rest of the stuff they sent under this lot was:

 

A copy of a card reissue letter with its new terms and conditions, reprinted statements and a leaflet.

[Percival Wigglesbottom]

Dear Sirs,

 

Account Number: XXX

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a "true copy" of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

 

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, "the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form." This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

----

Courtesy of Rory32.

 

-------

 

That is to highlight the discrepency in the first letter :

 

Stating :

 

"The 'true' copy requirements can be satisfied by providing a copy agreement at the date the card ..." etc

 

Which are they are in error in quoting . It is partially applicable , obviously need to delete and amend to suit .

Edited March 27, 2009 by Percival Wigglesbottom

[ashmk]

Friend has recieved exactly the same as this so I am subbing to the thread.

 

I will be very intrested to hear other views on this matter.

[A+]

Percival what a top person you are, for putting all that on here!! THANK YOU.

Apologetically i have to admit that i am nowhere near skilled or knowledgeable enough at this stuff yet to know how to edit that letter to suit my needs in this instance. I am just learning what is and what isn't needed in a CCA request.

I have the option of either just sending that entire letter, or typing a totally new and very simple one, though i wouldn't know what to say even in simple form as i don't know what they haven't done.

As you seem to know what they have done wrong here, perhaps you could explain it to me in lay terms, and i will try to word that to them in a letter.

Thanks again, very kind of you, i just daren't send something i don't understand myself!

[A+]

Looking at it again myself, with the basic knowledge i have...

 

Am i right in saying that basically, this is a form (it calls it that at the bottom "Please sign and date this form and return it to:") which doesn't have the Ts and Cs ON it. The second sheet of Ts and Cs (the one with COPY in blue top right) looks VERY VERY different, its much higher quality and different font, also not reduced. I suspect this agreement has been microfiched.

 

So.... my suggestion is that i send them a letter stating that what they have sent does not prove that the Ts and Cs were on the same sheet i signed, and therefore i formally dispute the enforceability of this document. Does that sound ok, or am i barking very much up the wrong tree?

[A+]

Bump Bump Please

[A+]

I think everyone agrees this is not a valid CCA and certainly enforceable. If anyone disagrees please speak no or forever hold your copy of the Consumer Credit act 1974

[angry cat]

The £1 fee, which has been applied to your account!

The payment of £1 is the statutory fee payable and should not be applied to the account...

 

RBS, Miss Forman needs to be pulled up on this error.

[angry cat]

Was this an internet application?

[A+]

HEY ANGRY CAT!! Nice to hear your purr once again, long time no speak!

Thanks SO MUCH for visiting my topic again. Always love having you along for the discussion

Was it an internet application? Hmmm, well i can't say for sure, all i can say is i don't THINK i have ever made an internet application. I think all cards i applied for were done on paper when they were done due to 5hit loads of flyers landing on my door daily and eventually i succumbed to those lovely temptations of holidays and conservatories, instead opting to spend most of it on mortgage payments and other card bills

The £1 fee being applied to account - damn nobody ever spotted that, trust you eagle eye! Its over a year i think since that letter so probably a bit late to correct Miss Forman for that don't you think? Not sure if i want to stir up the hornet's nest, especially when it seems they are so incredibly useless and have no case, or so it seems?

thanks again for popping in, feels warm and cosy with a kitten about the place

[angry cat]

Okay, just make sure that you make a record of the fact that, RBS took your £1 stat. fee and credited said money to the account!!

 

Naughty RBS:(

[A+]

Thanks AC. if its important i can send them a letter asking for clarification or the return of the £1 as it was clearly not required for the purposes of complying with my statutory request :D

 

are you of the same opinion that the CCA is a load of rubbish as it stands above which is what they sent in response to my request?