Jeeze Andrew1, wakey, wakey that link above IS the agreement , apparently!! Can't you see it, the one with all the prescribed terms detailed within.................No thought not! Here it is in GLORIOUS technicolour.... Just a thought, when I take a further look at this it is almost as if a photocopy of the 'terms and conditions' leaflet (thin strip down the centre) is on the reverse, very strange as I remember these agreements to be of thin card (creased down the middle) with a lickable sticky strip around the edge and a freepost address and stamp upon it. Also wonder if there is any PPI on this as I have ticked the 'not employed' box.....mmm:???: PM sent. Regards, SHERLOCK

Hi Andrew1, One thing I am is not stupid, I have a degree you know - (though by all accounts this isn't a pre-requisite to being clever either!) I find the major stumbling block is the time required to research, read, check and re-check, write up and even keeping track of where I am....all very time consuming work - on top of your usual day-to-day activities. I reckon that is the problem with other users, not that they are dumb or lazy (hell I've been guilty of this on more than 1 occasion!). That said, it would seem I am up to my neck in it with this one, so I'm gonna have to stay on the ball and put all my reserves into this one account (there are others). Onto business, the account was a Monument Card - Link to 'reply Card' received below. Card initially taken out in 2000 with Monument (Providian) Receive 'reply card' agreement - Mar 2007 (Cabot state that letter encloses 'Original Application Form') http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...t-2584769.html Please note that the reply card in post 37 above contains an 'application form' barcode. This is a 2nd copy sent when requested after the ccj claim was filed. The 1st copy sent did not contain the barcode. Defence filed as per post 50 - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...t-2667887.html - if a keen eye can be cast over this to ensure that this does still stand (i.e. no change through my issuing NoA and CPR 31.14) OR have I moved the goalposts in anyway?? I have Rhodium to thank for bringing my attention to how they will deal with the DoA request so I felt a little pre-empting their next move would maybe speed / tidy things up a little. So, there we have it...Do you feel a 'without prejudice' cover letter to discontinue is the correct course at this moment (thank you Rhia) or will this play into their hands with the disclosure documents I am attempting to get my hands on, i.e would they drag their feet if it wasn't for a looming hearing?? Regards, SHERLOCK

I'm afraid that was the least complimentary statement I could make without getting banned from CAG!! If he's not gonna succumb to abuse, through the courts it will be - OK, just completing letters, they will be going off soon with another stay request!! In my letter I have contained a: Notice to Admit CPR 31.14 Request Incidentally, put the following paragraph below the request for 'deed of assignment', is this ok?? 4, the Deed of Assignment* / Sales Assignment* *where this may be contained within a master agreement that does / doesn’t contain my account then please be specific and where any sales sub-agreement for this specific account is mentioned in a paper schedule or other media but is, or may be, sold under the auspices of the master agreement mentioned above, please also provide evidence of this, along with legible account details. Additionally it asks when requesting a stay for info as to the help / expert advice that I may be receiving....ANY TAKERS!! SHERLOCK

Very wise words Andrew1, but here is the crux. I WAS and STILL am paying! Problem is they have to push things and now have stirred a hornets nest because what I have found since joining CAG is the capacity to fight my corner with the help from yours truly etc. As with all my creditors, if they leave me in peace they will get some payment (yes, even those with crappy / no agreements - for now anyway, cannot take on too much - each will get the same medicine eventually though) and most seem ok with this. However, it is generally the case that I kick up a fuss when they try to back me into a corner. Morally corrupt I may be, but that doesn't make Cabot the good guy! (maybe I should check out the jobs at Cabot, it would seem we are good bed fellows). Cabot may well get what they want out of this but it won't be without a good ol' scrap and whilst your campaign is a very admirable one and 'is not to encourage the morally corrupt to not pay what is due' is it not the case that in actual fact monies are not 'due' because Cabot and the OC before them have seen fit to misuse / mis-interpret the law as they go along??? Would you believe I am a little miffed with this, they apply for a CCJ, THEN suggest I should sign a TO that now includes THEIR court fee and THEIR solicitor's fee, AND paythe same amount I was anyway! Basically, I wouldn't give a crap if Cabot went to the wall tomorrow, you make your bed, you gotta lie in it right!! AND MR MAYNARD, WHOEVER YOU ARE, YOU STILL HAVEN'T SENT ME MY CITIFINANCIAL AGREEMENT I ASKED FOR 2 YEARS AGO BUT STILL TAKE MY PAYMENT, YOU MORALLY CORRUPT HUMAN BEING. THIS IS NEXT ON MY LIST BY THE WAY!! May I now officially declare myself a member of The Cabot Fan Club or do I have to change my moral stance to get my place at the table (I should be a LibDem MP) , Would you believe I am actually a very nice person who does not like conflict of any sort? Dearest Rhia, Morgans / Cabot collections (the lady did say she was from Morgan's collections) rang me at 8am (I took the call) to ask about a payment plan, I pointed out that this account is the subject of court action, she went away, came back and said 'oh yeh, it's being dealt with in Rugby'!! happy hunting Andrew1. Regards, SHERLOCK

Payplan's position: Questions on Debt Management Plans | Debt Advice | Payplan As a DMP isn't legally binding creditors could still take action against you. As Payplan have many years experience and have a great relationship with the creditors this is less likely to happen. However Payplan would continue to support you if any of your creditors applied to the court for a CCJ. Even if a creditor applied to the court for a CCJ the payment should remain similar to what you are paying through Payplan. I give my I&E to Payplan, I am not sure if creditors get to see it? And for the record, if I can squirm out of this without paying another penny I will...........morally corrupt I am. SHERLOCK

Seems fair enough Rhia, but are they gonna accept a couple of hundred quid on a 4000 account? Morgans / Cabot must have seen my I&E as I have to submit it yearly thru' Payplan. At least I think they see it? Dunno if they just get quoted a figure and agree to it? SHERLOCK

Hi Fossil, don't quote me on this, wait for a big cheese to come along, but I don't think they can send bailiffs in IF the court determines a monthly payment AND you stuck to it, i.e paid on time every month. You need to start yr own thread though and label it URGENT, you will soon get a response fron the CAG team. SHERLOCK

Hi Rhia, Morgan's apparently. Basically, conversation went like this: Them - "Hello, can we speak to Sherlock" Me - 'yeh speaking' Them - "Can you confirm your date of birth please?" Me - 'Bye' Are you suggesting I should enquire as to the nature of the call, get names, department etc., rather than hanging up? We have never had a call from Cabot in 3 years (have had letters). Unfortunately, did put a 'tick' in the box that I was open to mediation prior to the hearing but I don't think I provided my telephone number , not that it matters, I was a Private Investigator in my past life and I know you can easily get ex-directory numbers. I guess this is maybe their way of showing that they were willing to come to a conclusion without the need for a hearing. They also stated 'these calls are recorded', blah, blah... Not sent letter off yet, but should I also include not to ring, or will this show me in a bad light with regard the ongoing negotiations? My guess is the call is to enquire if I'm going to sign the TO because I don't know any other reason to ring? Thanks, SHERLOCK

F***kers are starting to ring me now, really ****ing me off . Letter sorted asap, THEY started the claim not me, not my bloody problem if it's 'STAGNATING'...their words not mine!! Wasn't happy with me going along nicely and getting their monthly (albeit) small payment. At least they were getting something, now they're gonna have to sit tight whilst I, yes I, bide my time, Happy hunting, SHERLOCK

30% seems about right, should push up the charges refund somewhat Wouldn't mind, got this card when unemployed (as per ticked box on 'reply card')!! Hoping all will come out in the wash, as they say. Is it possible for Morgan to push for trial OR can I keep requesting stays for as long as required. (I am assuming if the onus is on the DCA / OC to provide the doc's and UNTIL then a hearing is pointless), I am sure someone will tell me I am wrong. It appears Compucredit are back!! CompuCredit - Who We Are - Company Fact Sheet then again maybe not, their annual reports finish in 2006!

I will confirm that I have dropped 3/4 creditors off my DMP with Payplan and I told them the reason - No agreements etc. What is their best option? they still get my monthly payment, my other creditors get a bigger share and Payplan stay in business. SHERLOCK

Thanks for some VERY useful advice, will re-draft letter and send on Monday. SHERLOCK

POC's haven't changed so I am assuming yes. Do I need to point this out in a letter??

Thanks, there is no trial date set yet. I added a little bit in on CPR Request, is this allowed? the bit in red: Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of each of the following document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim and / or required to substantiate your rights to, validity of, and assigned balance, with regards the above account The POC's state: The claimant is the assignee of a debt(s) from Monument Credit Card Ref *******, Notice of Assignment having been given to the Defendant in writing. Despite demand for Payment, 3800, remains due. The Claimant claims 3965 (85 court fee and 80 Sol's costs) and interest under s.69 County Courts Act 1984 and costs.

Ok, so will re-sort CPR letter to include Deed of Assignment alongside: 1, the default notice 2, the termination notice Still waiting for statements etc. sent the Letter before Action on 3rd June....do I have to just sit tight on this?

Problem with DN, I cannot state what is wrong with it as I haven't seen it. Rhodium said I that I need to provide covering letter stating 'why it is not compliant in detail explaining each point for the other side to understand'. And do I send copies to court? Thanks again

Thanks, is that what I am asking for in CPR letter?? 3, Original Creditor ‘assigned balance’ confirmation letter. Does the DoA contain debt amounts etc? Also Rhodium, do I need state the terms that are missing from the original agreement or let Cabot tell me what is / isn't there? Thanks, SHERLOCK

Hello, HIUTH, Is that the same as 'Notice of Assignment'? I did make a request for some documents after the claim was filed but it wasn't under CPR. I received a 'representation of a letter' giving notice of the assignment of the debt due (the account being sold to Kings Hill (No.1) Limited), supposedly sent in March 2005. SHERLOCK

OK Folks, I have put together a CPR REQUEST for the Default Notice, Termination Notice and original creditor 'assigned balance' confirmation letter (not sure if this bit is strictly proper though?) CPR 31.14 Request On **TH Oct 2009 I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the Northampton County Court I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest your claim. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached. Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of each of the following document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim and / or required to substantiate your rights to, validity of, and assigned balance, with regards the above account: 1, the default notice 2, the termination notice 3, Original Creditor ‘assigned balance’ confirmation letter. Your claim has been allocated to the small claims track for determination, in consequence, the provisions of CPR 27(2) are of no effect and you should not seek to avoid compliance with your CPR 31 duties by claiming otherwise. You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case. Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party. In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request. If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence. If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order. I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you. yours faithfully Additionally done the 'Notice to Admit ' but taken out the DN part for now. Once / if I receive this, I will post it up for clarification that it does not comply with s.88 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I will deliver a 2nd admit notice for this. notice to admit facts The Defendant gives notice that you are requested to admit the following facts in this claim within 7 days from the service of this notice, saving all just exceptions to the admissibility of such facts as evidence in this claim. The facts the admission of which is required are: 1 that the Credit Agreement supplied does not contained the prescribed terms as per s 61(1)a of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 The Defendant confirms that any admission of facts or part of case will only be used in this claim. Dated ……… 20… (Signature) (Defendant) Please sign and return one copy and keep the other copy for your records ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- admission of facts pursuant to notice to admit The Claimant [admits / denies] the facts set out above and in the Schedule, [without any qualification or limitations / subject to the qualifications or limitations indicated] and saving all just exceptions to the admissibility of such facts, or any of them, as evidence in this claim. The admissions are made for the purposes of this claim only, and on the basis that they will not be used on any other occasion or by any other person. Dated ……… 20… (Signature) (Claimant, Solicitor) Position or office held ……… (if signing on behalf of firm or company Schedule Facts admitted Qualifications or limitations, if any, subject to which they are admitted. That the Credit Agreement is not compliant with s 61(1)a of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Dated ……… 20… (Signature) (Claimant, Solicitor) Position or office held ……… (if signing on behalf of firm or company) Thanks again, any further advice before I send the requests off?? Am I on the right lines? Have I included anything I shouldn't? Additionally, I do not think it unreasonable to state that I am not in a position to sign the TO (but will continue with pro-rata payments thru' DMP) pending delivery of requested documents.. Regards, SHERLOCK

Rhodium, Rhia, JC and all, thank you for taking the time to advise on this. 1st of all, I am open to all suggestions. Do I really have that much to lose by pushing Cabot. 2nd, there is no trial date set, stay granted until middle of August. 3rd, as to the Terms and Conditions being the same as original, I won't / don't know this as I haven't got them or received them from Barclays. The copies sent from Morgan were a photocopy of a set of T&C's (4 pages, leaflet type, photocopied side-by-side) 4th, you mention DN (assuming this refers to a Default Notice) I neither possess or have received one - copy or original. 5th, at this time, am I to serve just the 'Notice to Admit' or also the CPR request? Also, how can I refer to the DN if I haven't seen it, can I leave the DN part off for now? Additionally do I send copies to the court at this time? In laymans terms, my arguments are: I have no Default Notice. This may / may not turn up with statements. The claimed amount is wrong due to unlawful charges and as such the figures within the 'particulars of claim' and the TO (do I still refer to the TO at this stage or leave it out?) are also incorrect. The POC's state: The claimant is the assignee of a debt(s) from Monument Credit Card Ref *******, Notice of Assignment having been given to the Defendant in writing. Despite demand for Payment, 3800, remains due. The Claimant claims 3965 (85 court fee and 80 Sol's costs) and interest under s.69 County Courts Act 1984 and costs. I require strict proof as to make up of assigned balance of 3935 as stated on Cabot statement of account. Again will not know until statements arrive. Regards, SHERLOCK

Well it appears that the thread has certainly gone up a level or 2!! I will try to outline the important details of the thread here, in order to make things a little easier: Card initially taken out in 2000 with Monument (Providian) Account defaulted around Jan 2005 Pay monthly amount thru' Payplan since 2006 (To Cabot) and have missed a few payments CCA for copy of agreement - Oct 2006 Receive 'reply card' agreement - Mar 2007 (Cabot state that letter encloses 'Original Application Form') http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2584769.html Please note that the reply card in post 37 above contains an 'application form' barcode. This is a 2nd copy sent when requested after the ccj claim was filed. The 1st copy sent did not contain the barcode. Series of Cabot court threat letters CCJ Claim Form received - 0ct 2009 Defence filed as per post 50 - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2667887.html Received copies of ' Signed Agreement, Relevant Terms and Conditions, Representation of the Notice of Assignment sent to customer In Mar 2005 (Monument headed letter and details in fine print at the bottom) and a Cabot Statement of Account (MAR 2005 - PRESENT) requested / granted 2no stays pending delivery of accounts from original lender CCA Monument - MAR 2010 List of default charges received from Barclaycard (ASSUMING OWNER OF ACCOUNT) 400 pounds in late / overlimit fees. Letter Before Action to Barclaycard (insufficient information) - June 2010 Received 2 no. offers to sign Tomlin Orders from Morgans' (small amounts over 400/500 months). Case stayed until mid August. Official complaint to ICO regarding non-compliance by Barclays made - June 2010 Received letter from Morgans - to request if I am willing to sign the Tomlin Order prior to receiving information from Barclays? End of June date to reply or 'We shall write to the court enclosing an Allocation Questionaire and ask for directions for progression' !! Hope this helps, SHERLOCK

OK, email and attachments sent to ICO. I understand they may insist I give Barclays more time or complain to Barclays but it is a start. I am thinking now of collating a letter for Morgans. I do not yet have any statements upon which to check charges or PPI. At this time will a CPR Letter - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/255329-cpr-18-cpr-31-a.html - (this was not done as part of my original defence) be a good idea to Cabot/Morgans and state that I will not be entering into a Tomlins Order without all the information at my disposal. Looking at other threads, it is apparent that they try to wriggle out of producing originals. Surely not, I could quite easily produce a photocopy of one of those 'reply cards' and put anyones signature on it and claim they owed me money! Staggering. SHERLOCK

Thanks Rhia, I didn't know it was Barclays 'til I sent a S.A.R. to Monument and the reply came from Barclay's Customer Services. Sent the letter below on 5th June, and also sent a copy to Morgans. Dunno if I am 100% correct in including Barclays in the defence, but they must have some part to play as original owner because I am sure that not ALL responsibility for the account transfers with Cabot. Barclaycard Customer Services P.O.Box 5592 Northampton NN4 1Y June 2010 Dear Sirs, ACCOUNT NUMBER: Following my request under the DPA 1998 dated the March 2010, you subsequently provided me with a breakdown of default charges assuming this was the information I was looking for. I would like to point out / obtain confirmation of the following from yourselves: 1. The information request was for copies of all my personal data, covering the period of said account, it is not for you to choose which information I receive. Subject access request (Data Protection Act) Under the Data Protection Act, individuals can ask to see the information about themselves that is held on computer and in some paper records. If an individual wants to exercise this subject access right, they should write to the person or organisation that they believe is processing the data. http://www.ico.gov.uk/tools_and_resources/glossary.aspx 2. This account is subject to court proceedings and as such I give a further 7 days for you to comply with my request or give reason for non-compliance. LETTER BEFORE ACTION Data Protection Act 1998 I am in receipt of the letter that you have supplied in response to my Data Protection Act information request. The disclosure of personal data is incomplete in that at least the following documents are missing: · You have failed to provide a complete list of transactions and charges. · You have provided no notes, or documents, relating to any legal action between you and myself, inc passing / selling of account. · You have provided no notes, or documents, relating to instances of manual intervention. This is not an exhaustive list by any means, it is just an example of some of the information I am missing. Accordingly, I have to tell you that you have not yet complied with your obligations under the Data Protection Act 1998. The time for compliance with my request has now expired. If you do not comply fully with my Subject Access Request within 7 days, I will be left with no option but to include you in my response to the County Court with regard CABOT’s (Your Client) CCJ Claim. Yours Faithfully, SHERLOCK. With regard defence I was only to include Barclay's where there was no info upon which to defend such claims (debt amount etc.) within Cabot's POC. Upon receiving this, Morgan enquired for clarification if I was going to sign the Tomlin Order before I received any info from Barclay's. This is where I am at...already got todays post. Nothing from courts or Barclay's! Advice much appreciated, SHERLOCK

Thanks Rhia (pm'ed you) , POET, They've already put their costs on the order + thats before 'winning' the claim....is this correct procedure?? It's taking so long on my part coz I am still waiting for info from Barclays, stay extension requested twice. The only charges I know of is a list Barclays sent me totalling about 400 quid when I 'SAR'ed them (BY THE WAY THAT IS ALL I RECEIVED). Are we at stalemate until I receive the statements then, or do I carry on with the unenforceable angle with the charges refund as fall back?? Then again, if the charges should exceed the 4k then that would suffice + don't know what the figure was at when the alleged amount was sold to Cabot (they add their own charges too from what I've read). SHERLOCK

Hi all, In a bit of a quandary with Tomlin Order. One of the directives is 'if the defendant does default in the payments detailed in paragraph 1 above, the claimant be at liberty to enter judgement for the sum then outstanding'. For clarification, does this mean that they get automatic, guaranteed ccj if i miss a payment because by signing the Tomlin Order I have in effect accepted the original court claim made by Cabot. I have sent Barclay's (who I now know were the legal owner of the original Monument card) a 'Letter Before Action' because I need all my info. They are taking a long time but I am of the mind I cannot defend myself appropriately. Cabot have given a date of end of June to sign the order because proceedings are stagnating!! can a defendent prepare his own order or just make proposals as to the contents? The latest on the court hearing is I requested a stay some time in May pending delivery of documents from Barclays, not heard from courts yet. also, have recently read about asking Cabot for papers under CPR rules, shall I do this at this stage? They are also asking for clarification if I will not enter into the order until I have been supplied with the Barclay's info. I am really not sure where to go with this. My original angle (and defence) was the fact that the agreement was unenforceable, am I know changing tack........seem to be losing clarity, Thanks for any help, SHERLOCK.