Hi simeon - ok maybe that sounds a bit more promising. Let me have a quick think about this and I'll get back in 30 mins or so. But remember - I'm not a lawyer and as I've said before I have absolutely no knowledge or experience whatsoever of civil court rules and procedure. I can't give you legal advice on the best or the correct way of doing this. As I've said before, if you want legal advice you can rely on, then you need to pay a solicitor. If you can't afford that you are going to have to make your own decisions having already decided to sue your builder for £16k. I've already suggested you speak to Citizens Advice Bureau or ask if your local university law school provides a free legal clinic. All I can tell you is what seems like common sense to me. I suspect Andyorch is the person you need to be asking what you should and should not be doing from a legal procedure point of view. But at the end of the day it's only you who knows exactly what has happened and you have to make the decisions. I'll be back shortly.

My fear is the ball park figure being claimed has been based onthe dimensions of a polo field when it should have been based on the size of a snooker table. I don't think we've seen anything that justifies £8k let alone £16k. I'm not sure simeon has any idea of the real value of his counterclaim. Sorry.

Thanks Andy Whether that makes things clearer for simeon or not, I don't know... Yes - simeon should have ensured long before arriving at this point that he had an accurate breakdown of the uncompleted work, the damage caused by the builder and what it will cost to put that damage right. Why he didn't have that before he submitted the counterclaim is unclear. But that's where he appears still to be even now. The only possible explanation as I see it (and I have no idea if this is true or not) is that simeon's solicitor seemed to advise him not to bother to get a surveyor's report before the court hearing. I'm also wondering whether because of the excessive delay in the solicitor enforcing the original default judgment and simeon's subsequent dismissal of the solicitor, that the need to back up the counterclaim was overlooked. Of course, that's all pure speculation on my part, and I have no idea whether it might help simeon buy more time or not? [Edit: I was replying to Andy's #71 and I see I've cross-posted. I think I agree with FTMDave that simeon can only do the best he can and hope...]

And presumably that fully particularised counterclaim will need to give a breakdown of the amount (£16k) claimed, or can that wait until later? (I'm asking because I don't know and I'm pretty sure simeon doesn't know either... ) Thanks

So apart from drafting a counterclaim that explains why he's suing his builder for £16000, what else do you think @simeon1964 should be doing? I freely admit I'm well out of my depth here and I don't want to inadvertantly guide simeon off in the wrong direction. And I think FTMDave probably feels the same way. I'm a bit concerned that it will turn out that there has never been any "real" evidence to support the value of the counterclaim and that at the time it just seemed like a "good idea" to both simeon and the legal friend who helped him draft the original defence and counterclaim.

As he appears not to be able to remember, should he ring the court ASAP tomorrow morning and ask? I fear it may be a waste of time but what else can he do?

I really don't want to make this any more complicated than it is already, but can I ask a really stupid question? Is it absolutely 100% clear that the judge has chucked out the builder's claim for £2866 and that no more work is required on the defence to that? I'd just like to be certain that it's not the case that the original claim is still extant and is to be heard by the court, but that neither the claimant nor the defendant are permitted to change what they've already submitted to the court in respect of that original claim. (Does that make sense? It's just that it's not as clear to me as it obviously is to Andyorch and FTMDave that the original claim from the builder is now dead. But no doubt that is due to my lack of understanding!) @simeon1964 - if Andyorch's interpretation of that order is correct (and his interpretation will always be better than mine!) then all you really need to concentrate on is justifying your counterclaim for £16000. To do that you will need to demonstrate to the court several things: (1) that work you have already paid the claimant for was never completed by the claimant, and the value of that uncompleted work; (2) that damage you are claiming for actually exists; (3) that that damage was caused by the builder; (4) that the builder caused that damage in such a way that he is legally liable to put it right (eg he carried the work out negligently); and (5) the cost of putting that damage right. Can you do all that? (If anybody else thinks I've got that wrong or that I'm telling simeon the wrong things to concentrate on - shout out and tell him!!!)

I agree with all that. Can I just add that I've gone through the defence again and tried to make a bit more sense of it - and perhaps try to address or skip over some of the questions asked by FTMDave. Can I make clear I am not criticising what FTMDave has already done - I think that was a great job. It's just that I have found the OP's explanations still very unclear and difficult to understand so I've tried to make more sense of it. If what I've done is just making the whole thing more complicated and confusing then by all means ignore it. Bits I suggest deleting altogether are struck through. eg this Bits in red are my suggestions/improvements. (Or maybe they make things worse!) Bits in blue and bold are my questions. Whether this is really an improvement or not I don't know. Feel free to ignore... =============================================================================== 1. In this Defence: a. References to the paragraph numbers are in reference to the paragraphs in the Particulars of Claim issued on 25/02/2021. b. A matter that is not admitted is a matter which the defendant is unable to admit or deny and requires the claimant to prove. c. The defendant adopts where appropriate the abbreviations and terms in the Particulars of Claim for convenience only and without making any admissions thereby. 2. The defendant admits paragraph 3.1 of the claimants claim. 3. The defendant denies paragraph 3.2 of the claimant's claim. The true agreement between the parties involved the defendant and claimant agreeing that the claimant would undertake building work (Project 1) at the defendant’s property in relation to 3 specific areas. These were; and named Project 1 a. To underpin the bay window at the property, b. To repair a previously-removed chimney breast and, c. To install a new beam to the patio door. 4. During the process of the contract agreement above Subsequently the claimant was also engaged on further work to do the attached on 07/09/2020 for a total amount of £2,580.00 called (Project 2). 5. In relation to the installation of a new beam and the above this work was agreed between the parties It was agreed between the claimant and the defendant that Project 1 was to be carried out under the instructions of a structural engineer engaged by the defendant. It was agreed between the parties that the claimant's work would be as a result of instructions received following the structural engineer's assessment of the property. 6. Between June and July 2020 the defendant provided the claimant with a full copy of the structural engineer's report which detailed instructions to the claimant for the works to be carried out. 7. It was agreed between the parties that the works would commence on 13/08/2020. 8. It was agreed between the parties that the total sum for the completion of all the claimant's work regarding Project 1 would be £4300 called project 1. 9. It was agreed between the parties that the claimant’s fees for the work would be paid through three instalment payments. The first payment would be made at the start of the claimant's work. The second payment would be paid at the halfway point of the claimant's work. The final payment would be made on completion of the total works. As such three payments were to be made each of £1433.33. 10. The builder arrived at arrived at work at 2pm on 13/08/2020 when a contract agreement was drawn up. A cheque for the first payment was issued on the day and he worked for two hours. 11. On 24/08/2020 the builder approached me to book an appointment with the building inspector to inspect his work as the work was approaching midway and he would need the mid-way agreement money, I obliged and a second cheque was issued. He had carried out about 25 hours of work time in the property, attached is my diary of his work. The appointment was confirmed with the building inspector and builder the informed. 12. The building inspector showed up and but the builder, having promised to be there, was absent. The inspector walked around inspecting inspected the builder’s work and making comments in anger was obviously displeased by the standard of work. I called the builder and pass the phone to the building inspector. All I heard from the inspector was “Do you know what you are doing", repeatedly, “why are you not here you knew I was coming?” followed by describing the mode of doing the work to him. After the conversation with the builder he then asked me for a piece of paper and he started to explain the process which might be useful to the builder when he came. The inspector spoke to the builder by telephone, asking him why he was absent and questioning him about the work he had done. The inspector then gave him some instructions over the telephone also and left a list of instructions with the defendant to be passed on to the builder. The building inspector then said he would be getting in touch with the structural engineer with his findings and the defendant should hear from the engineer soon. 13. The builder came late that afternoon and I handed him the paperwork given by the building inspector and the builder assured me he would sort it out, that he now had an idea how to go about it, to which I said the inspector would communicate with the structural engineer who would be contacting us so he should wait and he agreed. 14. The structural engineer visited and recommended piling to complete the underpinning. The builder then said that he did not have the appropriate tools for piling. It was suggested to him that tools could be hired, but he did not respond. “But you can hire them most people do.” There was no answer. The structural engineer then introduced another tradesman who was able to do it for £3,000.00 and I paid the that tradesman to do the piling. 15. The defendant explained to the claimant that that £3000 would have to be deducted from the agreed price for Project 1 as that work had originally been agreed in that project. I then turned to my builder after payment that you are now £3,000.00 in deficit but we will sort this out after the rest of the work is complete. [Is all of that true? I don’t know. Is there evidence it was included in Project 1?] 16. On 02/09/2020 he the claimant asked for more work to cover his losses having paid lost the £3,000.00 for underpinning to another tradesman. I agreed and I asked him to price the job. His quotes were outrageous. Little did he know that I had had quotes from other people and the internet. e.g. he quoted me £1800.00 to plaster three rooms as against another plasterer who quoted £850.00. When I showed him the plasterer's quote, he was not shocked, I told him that, because he was on site I would pay him £900.00 final and he accepted. See attached builder quote for Project 2. [I think that is all waffle and I don’t understand it] 16. The claimant asked if the defendant needed any more work to be done and, despite the problems encountered on Project1, the defendant agreed on 7 September 2020 to have more work done (Project 2) at an agreed price of £2580. 17. For this reasons the builder was able to obtain a second contract from me for the amount of £2,580.00 signed on 07/09/2020 which I called Project 2, being, I believe the only way I could compromise the £3,000.00 paid to the tradesman. Again the contract agreement was identical to the initial contract for £4,300.00 (Project 1). [I don’t understand this paragraph. Delete it?] 18 17. Both the initial project 1 and project 2 started to go badly and I made several complaints to him, e.g. bad pointing. His response was all it needed was a good wash down and this bad pointing remains so to date not washed. As work commenced on Project 2 and continued on the remaining work for Project 1, the defendant had occasion to make several complaints to the claimant regarding the standard of work 19. 18. Around 15/09/2020 barely a week the builder had got the project 2 job, he was trying to ask for money for project 2. Barely a week after starting on Project 2, the claimant demanded payment. After a period of negotiation I agreed to pay him £2000.00 on 18/09/2020. 20. On 18/09/2020 I handed a cheque for £2,000.00 to the builder. He insisted on payment in cash even though my previous two payments had been by cheque. I was only able to withdraw £1500.00 which I paid him. The atmosphere was extremely hostile and under a steam of pressure I mistakenly wrote that the contract was agreed as £2,800.00 instead of £2,580.00. However, balance at completion was correctly indicated at £1080.00. [Way too complicated to follow. Delete?] 19. I paid the claimant £1500 in cash. We agreed that this left a balance outstanding on Project 2 of £1080. 21. We both signed the contract. The builder left. Later we saw the builder and his colleague on my CCTV camera walking away with my steel beam that had come off lintel. When I rang him and told that I had seen him on CCTV he admitted what he had done. I have now included the cost of the pair of the steel beam in my schedule of loss. He charged me for work during which he stole my material to do the work without refunding the material used. This was the beginning of my dissatisfaction with the builder. 20. It came to the defendant’s attention that the claimant had removed material (including a steel beam) from the defendant’s property that the defendant is clear either belonged to the defendant or had been paid for by the defendant in connection with Project 1. When challenged the claimant admitted he had done this. The defendant has included the value of this material in his counterclaim detailed below. 22. 21. On 21/09/2020 I highlighted and sent a snagging list to the builder. On 26/10/2020, he sent somebody to my house to clean up plaster damage to the wall and to the living room laminated flooring almost four weeks since he had last worked on the house. The person he sent made a mess of the job. I then updated the snagging list and gave a copy to his colleague who was doing the cleaning to give to him and emailed him a copy and sent copies by post to his address. Over a month later he sent an employee to attend to this work. It was not carried out satisfactorily and resulted in an updated snagging list being sent to the claimant 23. 22. The next contact with the builder was on 12/01/2020 when I saw a note on the door demanding he demanded 2,800.00. to which I immediately responded in my letter dated 17/01/2021 for asking him to explain how I owed the that amount as all that had been agreed as outstanding on Project 2 was £1080. so that I can deal with his claim. As I had no response from him on 05/02/2021 I sent him a recorded delivery pre-action notice. 24. 23. The claimant builder then acknowledged my pre-action notice by sending me notice to pay pay £2,866 by 26/02/2021 otherwise he would take me to court. I therefore waited for his court claim to defend and counterclaim. 25. The builder's court notice arrived and this was the beginning of assessing the cost of the damage and uncompleted work by the builder, by inviting tradesmen to come to the property to assess and give me quotes. More information was also sorted from the internet. Where I am not able to get accurate information or tradesmen to give me a quote I have left it as blank or TBA (to be assessed) on my schedule of loss, attached to this statement. [Is this relevant here Delete] 24. For the above reasons the defendant denies the claimant’s claim and seeks to make the counterclaim detailed below. [Does that seem right? I don’t know?]

@simeon1964 - regardless of what @FTMDave drafts for you later this evening, you still appear to have made no attempt in #32 to explain how you have arrived at the counterclaim value of £16500. All you seem to have added to your previous draft is this: I'm afraid that does not advance your counterclaim at all. What you need is a detailed breakdown of the £16500. As I understand it, all you have (or at least all I've seen) is a list on unheaded notepaper of alleged snagging together with a second list, also on unheaded notepaper, of alleged remedial work. All you appear to have is a wish list with no substance. (Yes - you've also provided a couple of photos of small cracks in plaster and some missing floorboards, but those won't cost £16500 to put right, will they?) Put yourself in the judge's position. You are trying to persuade the judge to order the claimant to pay you £16500. The judge is going to ask themselves - and you too probably - WHY the claimant should be made to pay you £16500. So when the judge asks you that question, what are you going to say? Just producing a couple of lists of things is not going to work, you have to explain to the judge where the £16500 comes from and why the claimant is legally liable for it. That means that you need to demonstrate two things in your counterclaim: first, that the claimant caused the damage that you are going to spend £16500 fixing. Unless you can prove that the claimant caused the alleged damage, the judge will not make them pay you. Second, you need to provide evidence that the remedial work will actually cost £16500 or whatever you are claiming. Are you saying that you have nothing in the way of estimates or quotes on headed notepaper that show the damage will cost £16k to fix? You can't just pluck a figure out of thin air. It has to be supported by evidence. (Also when I say "alleged" damage, I'm not doubting you, but you need to provide evidence that the damage actually exists - and was caused by the claimant - and isn't just work that needs doing to your house that you've decided to try to make the claimant pay for. Do you see?) Also - and I pointed this out in the other thread - when you make a post here can you please explain at the beginning of the post (1) what it is, and (2) why you are posting it? I know Honeybee and FTMDave have pointed this out too. None of us are mindreaders. If you fail to introduce your posts properly, none of us has a clue what you are talking about. Are you producing a draft for comment? Are you answering a question? Are you asking a question? Is it a copy of something you have received? If you can't explain your posts, nobody can help you... [Edit: I know FTMDave did say some posts ago that if you have no evidence to support the £16500 counterclaim at the moment then, OK, we are where we are and you will just have to run with it. But if you have some evidence or a breakdown of the amount at this stage thenit would be nice to know. If you can't get the required detail in your counterclaim you need to ensure you have something for your WS... ]

I'm having the same difficulty working out why @simeon1964 posted #32 without any explanation (again!) as to why it was posted.

It's the Federal Court of Australia channel on Youtube.

I know this is probably the wrong board, but it will probably be more appreciated here rather than elsewhere. I'm currently watching a live stream of the Djokovich trial in Oz. It's quite funny because Djokovich's legal team don't appear to have paginated their bundle correctly, which is causing the three federal court judges some inconvenience...

@FTMDave - Yikes! I like that. How much effort have you put into that? You've turned a dog's breakfast into haute cuisine... Even if @simeon1964 gets no more suggestions that's his defence there. Re your questions regarding para 14, I think it was simeon who suggested to the claimant that the claimant hired the necessary tools for the underpinning etc. Nada from the claimant. Dunno about your other questions. The only thing I'm wondering (and please bear in mind what I said earlier that I have absoluely zero practical knowledge of court processes and procedure) is whether some of the detailed points in the defence would be better in simeon's witness statement rather than in the defence? Sort of a bit less is a bit better? Certainly I'm in no way criticising what you've put together above, I simply don't know what needs to go where. Everything you've drafted above is required and needs to be incuded somewhere or other. I think it's justifying the amount of the counterclaim that is going to be the difficult part for simeon...

I'm fighting the urge to respond with the reply in the Pressdram case...

Good luck.

OK Thanks. I think the two eldest brothers need to have words with Mr Z... Hope you are recovering well

I do not feel qualified to have an opinion on that question. See what others think...

I don't wish to ask what may be a tactless or insensitive question, but if your extended family are willing to pay £3k to Aviva to get them off your back (which is something I can fully understand from your point of view, even if I might not recommend it) why doesn't your extended family just put pressure on Mr Z (isn't he your brother?) to pay the £3k? Or the family treats the £3k as a loan to Mr Z? Or is this an awkward family issue best left alone? (Apologies if I'm causing any unintended offence - but I have to ask. The person at fault here is your brother but nobody in your family seems willing to take issue with him. They seem to blame you if I recall correctly)

I've had enough of this. I could wish you good luck in your search, but I don't think I'll bother...

@simeon1964 - OK. Well that looks like a good starting point for a defence. Note I say a "starting point" - I think it still needs a lot of work but well done. For the first time I feel like I'm beginning to understand what has happened. The first dozen or so numbered points of the defence read quite well and can be understood. But the second half of the defence gets a bit confusing and muddled again. It tends to degenerate into: "He said 'xxx' and I said 'yyy' and my wife said 'ZZZ'". I think you need to try to cut out the points of dialogue and detailed descriptions (keep them for your witness ststement?) and try to stick to a clear but concise statement of what happened, explaining why you should not pay his claim. I agree with Andyorch about needing much more explanation of the counterclaim. At the moment you are basically saying: "Defence I'm not liable to pay the £2800 claimed from the agreed fee because the claimant (a) did not complete the agreed work, so (b) I had to pay somebody else to do the work. and (c) he also damaged my property" Which is generally OK. But then you go on: "Counterclaim The claimant damaged my property and I'm claiming £16k for that". That's not OK because how does the court know it will cost £16k to put right as opposed to - for example - just £3000? You need to provide the court with something concrete to back up the figure of £16000.

So it was a waste of honeybee's time looking for information you already knew? Well (of course!) honeybee didn't know they were wasting their time because you haven't had the good grace to let us know what you already know. Yet you smugly say it "was already known to me." Don't expect other posters on here to give you any respect if you can't respect them for giving their time freely to try to help you. What a waste of time.

I find it amusingly ironic that you tell us this thread is about the address of a "process server and private investigator" when those facts, including, the name of the individual, are all things that posters on here have discovered and told you about, while you, of course, reveal nothing.

No.

So - Andyorch has confirmed you don't need to have any report on the damage or valuation to put it right before you submit your defence and counterclaim. Any requirement for reports will come later. So that's good. So for the time being you need to concentrate on drafting a comprehensive but easy to understand defence and counterclaim. In the defence you need to explain clearly and point by point why you don't owe your builder the money he is claiming. In your counterclaim you explain what damage he caused that you want him to pay for. And ideally something to back up the £16000 figure you are counterclaiming. (It might get a bit embarrassing if you get a report afterwards but it only identifies £5000 of work that needs to be redone, reimbursed and/or fixed).

OK. So when you received the original claim from your builder, you drafted your own defence and counterclaim with the help of "a legal friend". (Can't this legal friend help you again now, as they must be much more familiar with your problems than anybody here?). You then fell ill and had to get a solicitor to continue with the case, but all he had to do was answer the allocations questionaire because you won default judgement when the claimant failed to comply with court orders. As you say - Bingo! So does that mean that your solicitor actually had an expert written report, or just that he was planning to get one done, but had not yet got round to it? (I suspect honeybee13 is correct that "TBC" means "To be confirmed", which suggests to me that no report has actually been done... ?) My personal view - and it's only my view - is that if you have nothing else that provides evidence of the claimant's substandard and incomplete work and the damage he has caused to your property (together with an estimate of the cost of putting all that right), then you really do need some kind of "expert" report that explains all that to the court and which you can submit as evidence. Whether you have time to get that now within the deadline, I simply don't know, but if I were you I think I'd be talking to my structural surveyor/engineer ASAP, or getting a quote from another builder. Or is the document you posted earlier from Hale Surveys Ltd meant to be that expert report? We simply don't know - we have to rely on you to tell us and to explain what the different documents are. Honeybee may have some comments or might be able to get other members of the site team interested in the thread. [Edit: Ah! cross-posted with others. I see Andyorch and FTMDave are interested as well as Honeybee. Good.]