It seems the rules are just made up and are particular to each individual LA. The LGO's report on CTax recovery is quite an eye opener http://www.lgo.org.uk/GetAsset.aspx?id=fAAxADQANgA5AHwAfABUAHIAdQBlAHwAfAAwAHwA0, it seems the LGO is just another toothless Quango. It's fine when they investigate what happens to our rubbish and helping council's decide what colour bins to have, but when it looks at LA's draconian methods in ctax collections, it doesn't even touch the tip of the iceberg. It's quite clear outlawla from my experience so far that the Council is operating like it's just something out of Assad's regime. We have the cheek (as a country) to dictate to countries like Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran etc etc to be civilised when in fact, this country has become worse and resembles something out of the Stasi regime. This whole experience has made me wish I am / was witholding CTax wilfully, I now detest handing over £130 per month to this totally incompetent, corrupt organisation and their cosy costly relationships with Liberata / Capita et al. The Roger Hayes case is quite interesting, I think his case is more to do with him wanting a new bank system and his views on both Local and central Government rather than holding back pay council tax. The establishment want to silence people like him. Isn't this the reason we bombed Libya and Iraq? In fact, we are just as bad, if not worse when it comes to silencing people. The Government are pooping themselves hoping a civil uprising won't occur as we all find out how these, politicians, corporations and banks are milking us all dry, it only takes a few Roger Hayes to create a melting pot of anger / rage. God help them!

Hi Hallowitch, I have SAR'd them today by post, it would be interesting to see what they have. We received nothing from NSC prior to the Rossers 14 day letter which expires Friday. Looking forward to the knuckle head visit. Got CCTV and video camera finely tuned. Can't wait for the threats of prison.

Hi outlawla and caggas, sorry for the delay in replies, I have been over run with work, however I have this week off and have responded to their last letter and delivered by hand today. Whilst there, I enquired if our account was up to date which it was, I asked why Rossendales are still on our case. She, who I thought was a CTAX LA worker turned out to be a Liberata employee working on the front desk. I demanded I see a member of NSC staff. I had to make an appointment which is for this coming Thursday. The Local MP's office is meant to be on the case but they got flustered when I mentioned Liberata's track record and current reputation in North Somerset. The MPs office wants an update on Thursday and informed me the next step is the LGO. The council absolutely deny any responsibility for CTax and are quite proud that their contractors are solely responsible for CT. The response from the front desk staff was a disgrace, I ask for a receipt for the hand delivered letter and the 'Lady' snivelled that we don't give receipts. I protested and she shoved a compliment slip with a received stamp on it. What these LA's fail to grasp is we are customers and they are public servants and should treat us a little more civil. I took a photo of a poster in the reception stating they have a zero tolerance on threads, intimidation and violence. I reminded I don't take to threats and intimidation either and feel that they are demanding money with menaces by allowing Rossendales to continue their threat campaign. Here's the text from my latest letter to the Assistant Director of Corporate Services: Dear Mr.CTax Man Thank you for your letter dated XX XXXX 2012. Despite the failings of your contractors, Liberata, online payment system, our account is fully up to date. Still, your department has vindictively applied for a second Liability Order for the full costs of this year. We will not be staying here for a full year that’s for sure! We have also been threatened by Rossendales for full payment and threats of Criminal Charges and a £500 fine should I not return an Income and Expenditure form to them. Since when has Rossendales had the legal right to prosecute for non return of an I&E form? This is pure fraud and demanding money with menaces. I am currently seeking criminal offences of fraudulently demanding money by acting ultra vires, vis claiming to be able to pursue criminal prosecution for failing to fill in their I & E form and have taken legal advice on this matter. I have also found interesting information about Liberata, your primary contractor with regards to collections. It seems their track record is something to be desired and their constant failings of providing sufficient IT support is a legacy that even central Government fired them for. I’d be interested as to find out why NSC has a cosy relationship with this totally incompetent outfit and how NSC think they have no responsibility for Liberata’s actions. Is NSC seriously telling me there is no Framework Agreement between you and Liberata? Are you letting a Private Corporate Company deal with the public purse haphazardly? Considering Rossendales track record, in light of the recent ITV ‘Exposure’ programme, it seems NSC has employed the most unprofessional and cheapest outfits they could muster. I will be placing an advert in next week’s This Is Somerset appealing to those with similar experiences of NSC’s and Liberators objectionable practices with regards to Council Tax. I will be claiming compensation from North Somerset Council (NSC) with regards to the stress this has put my family under. NSC’s vexatious actions are purely to harass and cause physiological stress and my doctor has been informed as I have suffered depression for a number of years. I was lucky that Mr John Penrose was campaigning in my area at the weekend and I have explained this scenario to him. His office is organizing an appointment for me to attend and as an interim measure, I will be making this a Police matter as the response from you and you FOI department is flaky to say the least. NSC do not recognize the ‘Duty of Care’ you are obliged to use when dealing with Tax Payers and the public as a whole and shunning the responsibility of code of conducts between NSC, Contractors and Sub Contractors is Illegal. Both the ‘The Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 1996’ and the ‘Local Government Finance Act 1992’ apply to NSC and I have been studying this thoroughly. I feel I have expired all avenues with North Somerset Council and after seeking advice will be reporting this matter to the Police and the LGO. I will also be appealing this last Liability Order through the High Court. Yours sincerely, Banana Man From the Banana Republic of Britain

Wow, to put an 8 page letter together, you really have got these on the run!! Annettte, you rustled their feathers, the best course of action with them now is silence and carry on with your action. It would be interesting to see their reply, I bet it's full of snivelling lies to put you off and make you feel like you don't stand a chance. If you didn't have a case they let you carry on, the sheer fact you've got an 8 page letter tells me they are panicking and running for the hills. Go get 'em!! It sounds like they've sent the kind of letter a fraudster would send designed to intimidate. 8 pages, man, they must be desperate!

Thanks Ploddertom, this just confirms just what a bunch of criminals I'm having to deal with. I've looked up their Head Office on their website, any company using the term 'Mash Up' as one of their page links gets me concerned right away. Looks like I might be paying these idiots a personal visit too. Apparently, this outfit is shaping the lives of 35 million people....God Help them, they have nothing to do with shaping my life thanks! I see they are working with my friends at the MOJ (liberata.com/testimonials.asp) Explains all!!!!!

Annette, I have read this thread with interest the last few days. Don't let the councils lies sway you and put you off. The council have to be liars to enforce their illegal practices, and I don't just mean CTax illegal practices. Councils need exposing just as the MP's expense scandals. If it we're, it would make the MPs scandal look like childs play. Always remember, when dealing with the council, they are cheats. liars and the lowest of low. Go ahead with your action and watch them squirm.

This statement is in reply to question 5 in my FOI request: 5. Provide Contract and guidance information provided to North Somerset's contractors, namely Rossendales. There is no contract between North Somerset Council and Rossendales. The contract is between Liberata and Rossendales. The Freedom of Information Act does not apply as Liberata are not a public body (see legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36/ schedule/1?view=plain )

Hi BN, after the last round of problems when the 1st LO was issued against us, I delved deeper into the actual process of summonses, the court process and how the LO was executed. It seemed I touched raw nerves at NSC and when I challenged both the Magistrates Court and the LA, I didn't realise what can of worms I have opened. I submitted a FOI to both the MOJ and NSC, both replies supplying nothing more than smoke screens for their seemly unconventional practices. I think they, NSC, thought I'd pay up, like we did but then just go away and forget about how we had been treated. After all, it was their contractors system that messed up my online payments and further investigation to what happened there drawn a blank, instead the blame was put entirely at my feet. NSC did not even make an enquiry with Liberata and just took it that their system is perfect and faultless, when I provided evidence of their systems failure, the Ctax Coolections Manger(ess) got very angry, to the point she started banging the desk in the interview room on numerous occasions. I took the liberty to record the whole thing on my phone. I am convinced this whole scenario has come about because I asked too many questions. I requested the framework agreement and code of conduct information for their collections contractors (Liberata and Rossendales) they have told me twice, once verbally and now in writing they (NSC) don't have any responsibility. I think I am upsetting the grind here and am seriously questioning NSC's due processes and contractual agreements with third parties, this seems to be information they are reluctant for us, the public, to see. I can see nothing other than a public enquiry into their contracts and framework agreements with the likes of Liberata / Capita etc. I think LA's have forgotton they are a PUBLIC service and those working there are public servants who are answerable to us Tax Payers and the public alike. They don't like this stance and will do anything to present themselves as a total authoritarian organisation. I am visiting their offices in person tomorrow and taking unpaid leave from work (Which I will claim back) and will not move from that office until I have all my questions fully answered and those buffoons at Rossendales off our back. Even then, I am determined to take this much further.

If LA's are dismissive of their responsibilities, then there is only one option and that is to take matters up with the LGO and or the Police. LA's have a duty to carry out proper investigations, especially where fraud is alleged. Every council has a code of conduct to abide by and NSC's code of conduct advice in this matter will be a template for my actions. It makes it quite clear where false claims and allegations of fraud are made, that the Police are involved. I am seriously considering contacting ITV's 'Exposure' or even Channel 4's 'Despatches' and try to extend their investigations in to Rossendales by exploring the relationships they have with LA's. I'm prepared to take part myself. I think it's time for a dedicated web site and dig deeper in to this world of LA dodgy practices. NSC have put in black and white that they have no contract or framework agreement with their respective contractors or sub contractors. This I find absolutely unbelievable, that is unless they think they are dealing with a stereotypical 'Jeremy Kyle' contestant who spends most of their money in Wetherspoons, dropping babies and grabbing as many benefits as they can. I'm afraid after spending over 6 years in Afghan on and off, I'm sick and tired of this country which seems to be rapidly declining in to a dictatorship where those who try and those who work are punished. Sorry for the rant but I think my anger over this will help fuel my determination in getting to the bottom of my dilemma. I don't take threats lightly and letters like those from Rossendales is a red rag to a bull. We are entirely up to date with our CTax and this is nothing more than vindictive actions from an LA trying to fire a warning shot over the bow.

I think as things get tougher and those struggling to pay CT, will start to call in to question, the legitimacy of how all LAs are conducting their business. Looking around the internet I see more and more people suffering at the hands of these semi-legalised thugs and liars. The worm will turn and god help those benefiting off of those who have genuine problems paying this tax that does nothing more than satisfy the shareholders of private companies like Capita, Liberata, Equita etc etc. LAs are duping us all in to thinking this is purely to reduce costs when in fact, contracting out services has proven to be a very expensive policy. Council Tax is at it's highest, yet we are seeing less and less in forms of services to the public and more and more go to the likes of Managers with Quasi positions such as 'Shape Managers', 'Teenage Pregnancy Managers' and of course, the shareholders of those companies like Capita, Rossendales etc etc. This episode has opened my eyes up to how we are all being ripped off and lied to. Once you open up pandoras box, you can do one of two things. 1) Pay up and carry on watching the pap on telly and pretend none of this is really happening. 2) Take the lying, cheating low lives on. I have vowed to the MP who done his rounds yesterday that I will ensure this costs NSC much more than the £1200 a year CTax. I WILL GET MY MONIES WORTH and more. I hate liars with a passion!!

Thanks BN, coincidently, our local MP and his entourage was doing the rounds yesterday and I am glad they popped by. I explained my situation and he has offered to get involved if I have no success with the CON-SIL tomorrow. I am very keen to know if this 'Threat' by 'Wossendales' is criminal as I will take action against them and North Somerset Council. I recorded the last visit I made to NSC when I made an appointment with the CTAX department and quite clearly the (Cough) lady I saw was angry and banging the desk numerous times in which I stated why are you getting aggressive. She could not answer questions as to why Liberators online payment system failed three times to take payment which just threw back some error code un-interpretable by anyone in both organisations when I showed them the screen shots of trying to make payment. I'm considering starting a blog about this and using it as a diary of events, I got a feeling this will playout for quite some time.

Thanks Hallowitch, you bet I will. I requested an FOI some time ago with regards to the first LO. The councils reply was that they employ Liberator to conduct their collections and any agreement / contract is between them and Rossendales, not North Somerset Council. So, the council has put in writing they are not responsible for actions taken by Bailiffs. The replies to my questions we're dodged, here's my request via the 'whatdotheyknow' FOI site: I got the charges dropped on the first LO after paying the arrears, but vindictively they have got a second LO for the whole of this year despite carrying on paying normally online. From what I have found out during this debacle, the whole process stinks and sounds very flaky... Dear Mr Banana, Freedom of Information Act (2000) – Request for Information I write following your recent Freedom of Information request, date 14 May 2012, reference FOI/2012/0347 regarding your request for information about Council Tax. The information you requested is enclosed. 1. Please supply me with information that justifies why North Somerset Council send out their own Council tax Summonses, despite the following legislation clearly stating that it's the court who should send out these documents and that it's a criminal offence, amounting to harassment to impersonate the court? MAGISTRATES’ COURTS ACT 1980 Part II Civil Jurisdiction and Procedure Jurisdiction to issue summons and deal with complaints 51- Issue of summons on complaint Where a complaint relating to a person is made to a justice of the peace, the justice of the peace may issue a summons to the person requiring him to appear before a magistrates' court to answer to the complaint. THE COUNCIL TAX (ADMINISTRATION AND ENFORCEMENT REGULATIONS 1992 PART VI – ENFORCEMENT Application for liability order 34. —(2) The application is to be instituted by making complaint to a justice of the peace, and requesting the issue of a summons directed to that person to appear before the court to show why he has not paid the sum which is outstanding. ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE ACT 1970 – Part V Miscellaneous Provisions 40 Punishment for unlawful harassment of debtors. (1) A person commits an offence if, with the object of coercing another person to pay money claimed from the other as a debt due under a contract, he— (d) utters a document falsely represented by him to have some official character or purporting to have some official character which he knows it has not. "A summons may be issued by a justice, the justices’ clerk or a member of the clerks staff with delegated powers contained in the Justice Clerk Rules 1999 (Statutory Instrument 1999/2784). Para 1 - 37 of the Schedule to these rules specifies the actions the Justice’s clerk has been authorised to carry out." 1a) Nowhere in the above does it state that a Local Council can issue and/or send out a Court Summons. As Wigan Borough Council issues and sends out numerous Court Summons's each year relating to Council Tax, can you tell me if it is lawful for you to issue Court Summons's? Can you also quote the passage from the rule/regulation/law which states a local Council can issue Court Summons's. Regulation 34 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 (SI 1992/613) sets out the provisions for a billing authority to apply to a magistrate's court for a liability order for non payment of the Council Tax. This regulation provides that if an amount which has fallen due, and which has been the subject of a reminder notice* or a final notice**, remains wholly or partly unpaid on expiry of the conditions of the reminder or final notice the billing authority may apply to a magistrate's court for a liability order against the person who is liable for the Council Tax. The regulation goes on to state that the application is to be instituted by making a complaint to a Justice of the peace and requesting the issue of a summons directed to the liable person to appear before the court to show why he/she has not paid the sum which is outstanding. The summons must be authorised by a Justice of the Peace or by the Clerk to the Justices, and the person whose signature appears on the summons must have personally considered the complaint. A Justice's Clerk is empowered to consider a complaint and issue a summons, in the manner of a Justice of the Peace, by the Justice's Clerks Rules 1970. The task of signing a summons can be performed by the use of a facsimile signature, or a rubber stamped signature, of the Justice of the Peace or the Justice's Clerk signature. North Somerset Council, as the billing authority, makes complaint to the Clerk to the Justices/Justice of the Peace by taking to the court a list of all persons against whom we wish to apply to the court for a liability order and relevant information. If the Clerk to the Justices or the Justice of the Peace agrees that the complaint is valid they sign the list to confirm that they authorise the issuing of the summonses in respect of all persons on the complaint list. The billing authority then produces and serves the court summonses on behalf of the court. *regulation 23 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992. ** regulation 33 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992. 2. I have visited North Somerset Court House in Worle on Friday 11th May and they confirmed the Council hires out the court room for the day in which mulitple Liability Orders are batch processed. How can a Magistrate process all the Orders? I remind North Somerset Council that in the case Regina v. Brentford Justices. Ex parte Catlin, the closing comments of Lord Widgery C.J "....It must however be remembered that before a summons or warrant is issued the information must be laid before a magistrate and he must go through the judicial exercise of deciding whether a summons or warrant ought to be issued or not. If a magistrate authorises the issue of a summons without having applied his mind to the information then he is guilty of dereliction of duty and if in any particular justices' clerk's office a practice goes on of summonses being issued without information being laid before the magistrate at all, then a very serious instance of maladministration arises which should have the attention of the authorities without delay...." SI 1992 No.613 - The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 Application for liability order Section 34 states: (1) If an amount which has fallen due under [paras. (3) or (4) of reg. 23 (including those paras as applied as mentioned in reg. 28A(2)] is wholly or partly unpaid, or (in a case where a final notice is required under regulation 33) the amount stated in the final notice is wholly or partly unpaid at the expiry of the period of 7 days beginning with the day on which the notice was issued, the billing authority may, in accordance with paragraph (2), apply to a magistrates' court for an order against the person by whom it is payable. (2) The application is to be instituted by making complaint to a justice of the peace, and requesting the issue of a summons directed to that person to appear before the court to show why he has not paid the sum which is outstanding. Council Tax regulations do not dictate the summons or who should produce it as the summons is a court document. The court has authorised us to produce the summons on their behalf, to their specification, using a facsimile signature. The case of R v Brentford Justices ex parte Caitlin demonstrates that a facsimile signature is acceptable as long as the actual complaint has been properly considered by a Justice of the Peace, or delegated to a Clerk to the Justices by the Justice of the Peace. The court authorise us to produce summonses on their behalf, using a facsimile signature, to all cases listed on a single complaint. As a facsimile signature is acceptable, how the summonses are produced and who posts them is irrelevant. 3. Can you provide the Magistrates Oath before this administrational process is started? We do not hold the information in response to this specific request. The North Somerset Magistrates Court Service should hold the information that you are requesting. 4. Please provide evidence of the Clerk of Justice's wet ink signatures on all summonses. There is no requirement for the wet ink signature. The task of signing a summons can be performed by the use of a facsimile signature of the justice of the peace or the justice’s clerk (R v Brentford Justices ex parte Catlin (1975) 5. Contract and guidance information provided to North Somerset's Bailiff contractors, namely Rossendales. There is no contract between North Somerset Council and Rossendales. The contract is between Liberata and Rossendales. The Freedom of Information Act does not apply as Liberata are not a public body (see legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36/schedule/1?view=plain ) 6. A full breakdown of Liability Order costs relevant to costs involved in the liability order collections process. The calculation of costs for North Somerset is determined by the attached. This spreadsheet is provided to all London Authorities by the London Magistrates Court Service to enable them to calculate the level of their summons costs. No calculation sheet is provided by the local Magistrates Court Service so North Somerset has adopted this calculation sheet to determine the level of summons costs. NOTHING WAS ATTACHED! ……………………………………………………………………………………………………… In line with the Freedom of Information Act (2000) and the Freedom of Information and Data Protection (Appropriate Limit and Fees) Regulations 2004, the Council reserves the right to charge for disbursements, such as photocopying and postage. However, on this occasion no fee will be charged. Please note that the Freedom of Information Act only provides you with a right of access to recorded information. Any information subject to copyright will continue to be protected by the Copyright Designs and Patents Act (1998). This includes information which is copyright of the council. Disclosure of any information by the council to you does not provide you with any rights to use or distribute the information in breach of any copyright. North Somerset Council now considers that it has complied with your request. However, you have a right to appeal if you are dissatisfied with our response. In the first instance you should address your appeal for a review of the response or our handling of your request to the Council’s Information Governance & Compliance Manager, in writing at: Mr Gary Shipsey, Information Governance & Compliance Manager, The Town Hall, Walliscote Grove Road, Weston-super-Mare, Somerset, BS23 1UJ. If you are dissatisfied with the outcome of the Council’s internal review, you have a further right of appeal to the Information Commissioner. You can request a review of the council’s decisions by contacting: The Information Commissioner, Wycliffe House, Water Lane, Wilmslow, SK9 5AF. Yours sincerely, Rachel Vincent Partnership & Business Support Co-ordinator Corporate Services North Somerset Council

Hi BN, hopefully this link works: tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2qbr8si&s=6 - this is what they are calling the '14 Day Letter' (Cough) I had to leave the 'http' bit off as my posts won't accept links Thanks, Banana

Hi Brassnecked, Many thanks for your super quick reply!!!! I thought something stunk about this. Is this the dodgy outfit that featured on a TV Documentary some months ago with that, what seemed, mentally retarded Bailiff and Woman Director I wouldn't trust baby sitting a toy doll? I'm just scanning the letter now and will post a link. Thanks again for your reply

Hi, a newby here who has been studying the wealth of information on these forums. I fell behind a few months ago with my CTax and had a liability order issued back in March. The debt was brought up to date and since I have been able to pay and am up to date. Last week, the council got a second liability order for the demand of CTax for the rest of this year despite paying every month. Yesterday I got a demand from Rossendales for £1,069. I intend to take this up with the council in the morning by going to the offices in person. The letter Rossendales sent was if it was written by a 5 year old. A I&E form was enclosed and I have been threatened with Criminal prosecution and a fine of up to £500 if I don't send it back to them completed. Is this legit and legal? Thanks for any advice.