Indiana Sorry - I've never had to go to court - so no experience on this. However I do think her solicitor is trying it on and exploiting your lack of legal knowledge. You need to get the court to order her to produce her bank statements and more evidence on the £1214 - but not sure on the procedure to do this. Not sure where DD is - haven't seen any posts for a few days from him, and I haven't been unable to pm him recently. I think you should try to raise a few hundred to consult a lawyer (PT2537 perhaps?). I'm sure he could kick this all into touch in a few hours - and her lawyer would advise her to give up then. Legal aid is a farce - available to habitual criminals at the drop of a hat - but not to decent citizens who've worked hard to build up a bit of equity in their home. IMHO home equity and a few thousand of savings should be disregarded. Hope others can help with the court stuff? BD

I love the way these companies advocate using Direct Debit - "this ensures you'll avoid late fees". Really? How come when my Bank bounced my DD's I got BOTH late fees charged by MBNA and unfair £39 charges levied by the Bank? Since MBNA are NEVER wrong this must have been a mistake. I must take this up with them as I have just realised I agreed my 35% F&F with them in May 2007 on the basis of wrong assumptions and didn't realise they had taken loads of late (and over balance) fees in error! That'll be a nice little windfall once I've included contractual interest after nearly 4 years! Do they have an arrangement with all the Banks that any DD they present will be paid to them - even if this results in the unfair £39 unauthorised overdraft charges? If so - and they must - as otherwise their statement is untrue - which is surely not possible from such a "reputable" organisation - then that's VERY worrying! That would mean any current account is totally open to them hoovering out exactly what they want from it! Surely if they give this "advice" they should being giving full and "balanced" advice by also spelling out the cons and risks of using DD's? Come to that - are they actually AUTHORISED to give Financial Advice at all? BD

Min That's what the CPUTR 2008 letter does - and scares the Sh*t out of them so much they don't lie - just ignore! However Rankore has another issue in not wanting to have an excellent credit rating trashed before remortgaging - but there's nothing to stop him establishing just how enforecable his agreements are while continuing to pay in full and keep his CRA file clean. I think it's despicable they can use the CRA's to put pressure on us to continue paying debts they couldn't enforce in court. Thank God my rating is so trashed they can't do it any more damage! BD

Eman Totally agree! BD

If this was in request to a letter asking for the CCA then I think it's time for the CPUTR 2008 letter - but P1 is the expert on this.

P1 I think minmoo is talking about an offer to continue paying a token £5 per month with frozen interest and charges whilst they find (or forge) the CCA - not an F&F. I think in the current creditor-friendly climate this might be a wise move - shows a court the debtor is not walking away from debts - just quite understandably wanting to be sure of the exact T&C's agreed by both parties as applying to these debts - as they may well be "totally repaid" already (assuming they were agreed at 0% or very low interest charges???). Any plea from the OC or a DCA to pay more can be met with "sure - I'll pay you exactly what you're due as soon as you show me exactly what that is - based on the exact original T&C's I signed for and any subsequent T&C's I accepted". Until then the debtor is very kindly giving the creditor £5 (without any proof it's actually due) to go against any remaining debt balance subsequently established and based on the T&C's applying right through the life of the debt - or simply buy a drink with to calm their nerves - very generous of minmoo! BD

Rankore You're expecting miracles! They take ages to reply - if at all! Read up on some relevant CCA threads and you'll soon realise just how it works (or doesn't!) Your Credit Rating WILL get trashed as soon as you are late paying them one monthly payment - or even agree a short settlement F&F. If your rating is still A1 (worth checking for £2?) then you need to prioritise: a) get them worried so they will agree to freeze interest and let you pay the debt off at affordable monthly amounts - but accept your rating is trashed. They are VERY unlikely to agree to a decent F&F right away - especially if your payment record has been A1. OR b) you keep up your payments and see if you can negotiate an F&F (unlikley) OR if you can raise the money to pay them in full at cheaper interest rates elsewhere - Personal Loan, Overdraft, Re-mortgage etc. NB - Reputable finance sources only! - no consolidated loan merchants etc.! Beware - some outfits (MBNA for one) will introduce you at an outfit charging huge apr's. As far as I am aware there is no third option - and they don't tend to agree to freeze interest or agree to short settlements until they're worried they might end up with zilch. However there's nothing to stop you doing CCA, SAR and CPUTR 2008 (all in order and in good time) while faithfully keeping up your payments. If they suspect you may go for unenforceability they may agree to F&F then - but they will then probably screw you with the CRA's no matter what they promise. Your SAR may unearth unfair charges you can get back - with lots of interest at THEIR rates - making a big dent in your balances! If you do find the golden key to your situation please let us know. Many of us have looked for it for years! BD

Subbing as have got phony NOA from Cabot recently. BD

Minmoo Have alook at this post (and this thread) - shoul;d be some useful pointers in it about getting a token offer accepted? BD http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?263744-We-have-so-much-debt-it-seems-only-hope-is-selling-house!&p=3145685&viewfull=1#post3145685

Min Without the CCA they SHOULD be unable to enforce - but who knows any more in this creditor-friendly lehgal system? They may well be open to a low F&F offer in a few months if you play it correctly. You still have 5 1/2 years or so until SB - so I would send a token £5 by cheque - only to be banked if all charges and interest frozen - and see if they accept this while they try to "locate" the CCA. BD

The Kid is right - if you're several years down the SB route then ANY payment will reset the clock, so this step should be thought about VERY carefully. Everything else like CCA, SAR and CUPTR 2008 requests - along with querying dodgy DN's and TN's - should be used first to extend the time and postpone any serious enforcement steps right up to court action. However if it's only a few months since your last payment then I would offer a token £5 per month - or send this as a cheque with a covering letter stating something like " this cheque no. XXXX is only to be cashed if you accept £5 per month from now on" They'll ignore it and cash the cheque anyway - but at least it gets round the judge's comments anbout stopping payment totally. I have had at least 3 creditors give up totally - no response to CCA or SAR and no chasing for ages - and I'm paying £5 per month to each of two other creditors (and nothing at all to all others while trying to sit it out until SB day). I'll have repaid the lower of these two debts (£4k) in full in around 800 months - (interest and charges frozen) - which will be around my 125th birthday - gonna have BIG party then - you're all invited (along with your carers). I'm not planning a celebration when the £10k one is paid off in 2000 months' time as at over 200 years old I might be a bit too tired by then! BD

GH Another very good point (as usual!). BTW can anyone remind me when the Brandon appeal is due to be heard? I'm so confused now that I'm not sure if this will help Pumpy or not - but it should surely overturn the Brandon verdict - which was totally perverse! BD

DX Your assumptions on 14 and 15 could be right - but I think my stalling tactics are safer in the final few months before SB kicks in anyway - any court case is always a risk - especially nowadays with so may creditor-friendly judges. BD

DX Normally I'd agree 100% with you - but in this case I'm not so sure. What if the OC and/or DCA go to court when the debt is only a few months or weeks away from SB? I think that would stop the SB coming into effect? If so at that point surely it's worth starting the CCA and then the "prove it" routine - to hold them up long enough to get over the 6 year line? I'm not sure that the lack of a CCA at the time the court case is scheduled and/or no proven NOA delivery would be enough to keep the SB clock ticking and get the case thrown out - so avoiding/delaying court action then is the safest option. If you don't agree can you tell us what's wrong with my suggested approach? BD

CSL tend to be just a DCA - i.e. they don't buy the debt - and probably won't have any paperwork - so haven't a clue what the debt is all about. Given you've only a year or so to wait (try to find out - but without alerting CSL or LTSB - so you know exactly how long you have ot wait) - then I would hold out as long as possible - but if it looks as if they WILL go to Court - then that's the time to ask for CCA etc. I think once they initiate court proceedings the SB clock stops - so important to avoid that happening by being "seen" to co-operate at the 11th hour - but only then - I doubt if you're even at the 9th hour yet! If they haven't bought the debt (absolute assignment) then they CAN'T take you to court unless along with the OC. Any NOA needs to be sent recorded delivery to be effective - so be careful if you ever get asked to sign for an RD letter from them! Howver this is VERY unlikely to happen as they tend to screw these things up too. BD

I tend to ignore them for as long as possible - let them waste a few stamps - then - but only if I think they may well escalate matters - tell them the account is in dispute and go back to OC. If they still persist then is time for "prove it" letter to them. BD

I would continue to ignore it. They're going round in circles - back to where they were in December when they were going to court in 7 days! Can you work out how long it is since the joint account was last used? If 6 years or more then any debt is SB. If near that then try to sit it out till then. By referring to "goods" your partner is "understandably now certain the letters are not for him", as he bought no goods on credit from them! BD

GH An excellent analysis (imho) - but this is applying logic and common sense - perhaps that is why the opposite outcome won out? BD

What the CCCS avoids saying is whether the OC or DCA MUST stop charges and interest - or if they ARE ALLOWED to continue charging them. I think the DCA has NO RIGHT to charge us ANYTHING - as we NEVER signed ANY contract with them. In any case remember CCCS is there to get the debt REPAID to the creditor - even if it takes a life time - not to help the debtor in any way other than possibly helping them avoid court action. This is why CCCS are funded by the creditors.

Lhmcr1 Have you read this thread and the template letters right through? There is a wealth of help on thsi and other threads - but it needs YOU to act upon it to be successful. First thing to do is parachute account - which you seem to have done. 2nd is to get charges and interest frozen - or a lower cost personal loan set up if they won't agree to this. Many people have succeeded in one or other option. 3rd is to negotiate they remove ALL £2 per day charges that you didn't agree to in the first place (I assume the interest charged before this was less? If not then you've really no grounds for complaint!). If they won't play ball - and you feel you are in hardship and are not getting any help from them whilst in hardship then put in a formal complaint - followed up by a letter to FOS if they still won't play ball. 4. If you can't afford to repay £60 per month to Halifax then you need to tell them - NOW - before your overdraft grows even more and they slap you with the HIGHER £5 per day for UNAUTHORISED overdraft. 5. Have you any unfair credit card charges and associated interest you could reclaim right now? Remember it's only unfair overdraft charges that the SC ruling covered. Credit card default charges CAN be reclaimed IN FULL - PLUS CONTRACTUAL INTEREST - with the amount of refund due effectively doubling every 3-4 years they remain unclaimed (at around 2% per month or more compounded monthly). 6. Have you shopped around for cheaper options on other household bills - life, car, house and contents insurance, maintenance contracts etc. ? AS I said doing nothing is the worst option. It doesn't have to be a no win situation - but will be if you just accept it is so. Sorry if this sounds harsh but being saddled with an unjust £60 per month charge is pretty light weight compared to some of the situations appearing on CAG! Carpe diem! BD

No harm in writing to them telling them you do not accept them changing your T&C's and asking them to revert to previous T&C's - or freeze interest and allow you to repay at £60 per month interest free. You WOULD be better off - as your debt would reduce by £60 per month whereas at £2 per day charges paying £60 per month is just treading water - paying less is sinking deeper into debt. Alternatively ask them to convert it into a personal loan at around 7% apr. That way at least the bulk of it will go to repayments. Doing nothing at all is the worst option. BD

Not sure - but I would just focus on them not obeying current guidelines on treating those in hardship properly - unless others think a bigger complaint could be made and might get you somewhere? However surely the best outcome for you is to be able to walk away from the current £9k debt - so I think the LAST thing you want is them complying fully and finding an enforceable CCA - so don't put any more pressure on them to find (or forge) it!

CAB Some info on here that could identify you? Exact date, time and place of hearing - and name of claimant? BD

Minmoo Don't worry - I didn't think you were having a dig at all. I agree with all the sentiments expressed - we all used to do our best to keep on top of our debts - but based on creditors' behaviour in recent years most of us now just think "let 'em stew in a mess of their own making". Your situation is all down to their refusing to treat you sympathetically when you needed it. By all means play the longer game and leave SAR until it can be even more useful. One thing that might be worth doing just now would be to complain formally to MBNA that they have not treated your hardship plea fairly. If they refuse to do so then report them to FOS. It will almost certainly get you nowhere but will certainly cost them about £500 to be referred to FOS plus the hassle of having to correspond with FOS and pull the wool over their eyes (alas all too easily done!). Hope this helps? BD

Minmoo OK - I respect your views about debt avoidance - but feel MBNA and others have long since forfeited their rights to be treated fairly and with the respect we show to those of similar morals to ourselves. They clearly don't have an enforceable CCA - which is why they're ignoring the CPUTR request. Why not put this period of silence to good use? If you've got all your old statements then work out what unfair charges and associated interest you've paid over the years? Also work out how much interest you've paid them in total. You can then use these figures to form a judgement how "moral" you should be in settling the current balance or any proposed reduced F&F. If you've not got old statements then it might be worth spending £10 on a SAR to get this info. BD