Re the overdraft interest, there isn't an easy way to calculate this as its compounded on the outstanding balance but we believe the unauthorised rate is 29% or thereabouts and the interest would be added to the account each month. So if someone's handy with excel they could probably figure it out, but I'm guessing the monthly admin fee would be added for each month the authorised limit was exceeded. Obviously this will throw the figures way off. You are entitled to ask for historic statements of course, but I believe they are are only obliged to provide the past 6 years, inline with most financial records. The loan agreement is a different story. If you believe that its not your signature you really need to bring this to the bank's attention as a possible fraud. The tricky part will be proving that you didn't benefit from the funds and that you don't recognise their loan agreement, especially if you have signed a duty of care form. This form will have the headline loan details and will be able to tie you to the funds. The fact that they can't provide the actual original document would only be useful if the loan was brand new. There is case law on this and IIRC the decision in favour of the finance company was based on the fact that the claimant had "enjoyed the financial benefit and made repayments over a period sufficient not to be able to claim lack of knowledge of the loan" or something similar. It seems to suggest that you have to prove this is a mystery to you rather than them proving you have an obligation. If it was a standard rather than bespoke loan, the bank only has to prove what their lending terms, interest rates and penalties were at the time it was taken out, to show that your's is a typical example. I'll bet they can provide thousands of other loan agreements from that period to back this up. If was a "tailored loan" things are rather less clear cut as each agreement is different and they would need to show exactly what had been agreed for you. The key words are Fixed Rate or Personal Loan. Bespoke loans are called either Flexible Term loan or Personal Term Loan. Its a bit like a garage selling a car model at £10,000 but you came to an arrangement to get the same model for £8,000. You would need to show why your's wasn't the same price. Or the other way around you paying £15,000. They would need to show why you had been charged more. Hope this helps.

Tricky one, I don't think you'll get very far with the unfair charges as they are caused by membership fees, which I guess the bank would say you signed up to. This is a bit like agreeing to a regular payment but not funding your account to cover the payments. I don't suppose you didn't actually sign up to the Royalties account? If you didn't you'd be on a much stronger footing as you could say you left money in your account and hadn't spent it so weren't expecting any charges. If you did, I would play the " I wrote in ages ago to get the account downgraded but you lost my letter" ploy. There's nothing to lose and as you hadn't used the benefits your case would be stronger. The best place to start would be a formal complaint to the bank asking why they never advised you of the charges? depending on their answer your line should be " I've never used these benefits so I'm not paying for them" If that doesn't work I'd go to the FSA under the "treating customers fairly" legislation. Let me know how you get on?

My best guess is that with fixed rate loans, the reason that statements are less important is because there are no changes along the way from the terms set out in the loan agreement. The only change from the original details is when an early settlement figure is requested and this would bring a freshly created statement specifically tailored to the date and outstanding amount. Although you could say the same for fixed rate mortgages they are covered by altogether different legislation that requires an annual statement be issued even for interest only loans where absolutely nothing changes until the end, as a home is at risk if payments are missed. Glad you found my reply useful:-)

sorry, but I just re-read your various posts. You said earlier that you never used the account but later said "when I last remember using the account" be careful here as non use strengthens your case immensely, but using it puts you in a weaker position.

From what I can gather, the Royalties account costs around £5/month for which you get various benefits. At the time of opening this account you should have received an information pack, or at least soon afterwards. This should explain the benefits and costs etc. If you never asked for the account type you have an excellent chance of reclaiming the membership fees and since they were incorrectly charged, the associated interest from the overdraft would therefore be erroneous too. The key would be to get them to prove that you actually asked for a Royalties account in the first place. Regarding statements, banks have a statutory duty to advise you of charges and interest and most will send a tally of each month's costs along with the statement. If you have never used the account, for anything, you have an excellent chance of a full cancellation under the FSA treating customers fairly legislation, but to benefit from this you need to register a complaint through their procedures and give them a chance to explain. As the process is monitored by the FSA this will ensure a quick response. What you mustn't do is mention unfair charges or the complaint will be parked with several thousand others waiting for the court case to be decided later this year. Your claim is about poor service more than unfair charges and if what you say is true, they cannot possibly defend this as you never used the account or associated benefits. Don't write, go into a branch and make your complaint in person, it'll save time and avoid the chance of your letter getting "lost in the post".

can you give me the snapshot explanation? I will pass this onto my pal. Hopefully he can have a discrete look from inside the bank and let me know what the internal line is on these things.

really sorry to hear that, or that you're not alone in being sacked. Is this you becoming a "Poacher turned Gamekeeper" ?

thanks for that, you seem to have your finger right on the RBS pulse!

No JonChris I'm not. The interest counts as income, the loan is simply a return of capital originally lent. Most big bank's profits come from mortgages and business lending which is for bigger sums of money and last far longer. They also tend to be base rate related whereas the greater proportion of personal lending tends to be fixed rate. If the base rate and LIBOR rise during the term of a fixed rate loan, the income drops therefore cannot be guaranteed. There's also the fact that few staff selling loans have any say in the rates charged so they have little impact on their own bonuses (what bonuses?). the real decisions are made by the bank executives whose bonuses are the stuff of many press articles over recent months. (My RBS contact received a 3.4% pay rise and no bonus this year despite arranging £10M of mortgages ensuring a decent level of income for years to come) his salary and those of most of his colleagues is far lower than you will imagine - I was stunned when he told me!

nice thought, but one of our wonderful sheriffs set a legal precedent making it illegal to clamp anywhere in scotland and classifying clamping as depriving the owner of the use of his/her vehicle punishable by a hefty fine if the victim decides to press charges - crazy isn't it? How about depriving the use of my parking space?

wow that's a real result! I don't suppose your agents are Peverel by any chance? I can't believe we could be that lucky to have a rolling code, but its worth a try. We've a committee meeting coming up so that would be the ideal time to discuss this. Our idea was similar, with all existing fobs deleted from the system and each owner visiting the concierge to get theirs coded with the new code. One of our issues is that the concierge may be part of the problem as we suspect he may be assisting people with "spare" spaces but haven't been able to prove anything

carole - try asking your business manager first, preferably in writing, and see what their first response is. My understanding is that business customers get their first years business banking free, but I could be a little out of date. If you have been there for some years now, I'd still be asking them for a detailed explanation. If they are confident they are correct, they shouldn't have any problems with this should there?

JonCris - my closest contact would probably throw up his hands in horror! In the lower echelons of most banks the workers are not well paid and have no input into the procedures and policies they work with. Most of those I know are very sympathetic to customer complaints but hamstrung by "rules" that prohibit them giving refunds. I would assume that there are those that make genuine errors and other who, for whatever reason, do break lending rules. If reputational risk is at stake, the senior management should be ensuring that credit policy is enforced otherwise they leave the bank open to FSA investigations, fines bad publicity and disciplinary action. I'm not familiar with the term "router a/c" and my contacts can't help on this one either. My understanding is that financial institutions books are based on contract value and the total lending book includes the value of mortgage, overdraft and loan facilities and but specifically excludes charges and penalties. Interest from lending is counted as income and varies daily whereas term facilities are more stable so can be used as a measure of business written. For example, the balance of an overdraft can be quantified but it could be repaid tomorrow so any income would end overnight. cbradley257 - According to the RBS website the contact point for loan queries is 0800 121 121, for making complaints you could Write to the Customer Relations Manager , The Royal Bank of Scotland, Freepost ,PO Box 1727, Edinburgh , EH12 9JN or Call - 0800 015 5035. They may refer you to a branch first but hang in there!

That's pretty much what I was getting at. No bank (or other lending organisation) can unilaterally change a credit agreement after signing, that would seem to be basic contract law. What they can do is recreate the original loan agreement using the terms and conditions in force at the time of signing to produce a replica of the original. It seems sensible to keep your personal copy of the agreement in a safe place until the loan is cleared, which is why the CCA requires all lenders to provide one within 7 days of drawdown. That way there can be no doubt and the banks can't "move the goalposts" after the game has started. That would be totally illegal and morally reprehensible.

Now that's what I call a good idea! Its non damaging but incredibly time consuming for the miscreant. Lets hope they don't take it out on my car! Maybe I should buy a compressor to inflate my tyres?

I have to say I'm a little confused. Why do you feel that the amendment of the CCA in 2006 applies to a loan taken out in 2005? Annual statements become compulsory for fixed sum credit agreements from 1st October 2008. Prior to this date the requirement was to provide a copy of the credit agreement within seven days of signing the original. In practice you would normally receive a copy at the time of signing. Without the copy the creditor can only enforce a default with a court order. In this case it seems very much like the original obligations of the loan agreement will stand, including any penalties including interest, hope this helps!

I have contacts within RBS and do understand where this is coming from. The main issue is right there in the RBS memo helpfully provided by paulwlton (dating back to 2007). The bank uses the notion of a true copy to cover the fiscal points of the loan - interest rate, fee, term and monthly costs. Because the format of loans has changed through evolving legislation these details are permitted to be recreated based on the salient details of the original. What cannot legally be recreated is the customer's signature on the loan agreement. Bank records will prove that funds were released to the client's account and whatever payments were made to the loan account will provide evidence of the clients knowledge and tacit agreement that the facility existed. In response to danson79's comment, in what way was his agreement "tampered with a little"? Whilst I'm not supporting any attempt by the bank to appropriate funds by deception, they do need every penny they can get right now and we should expect them to play hardball in these cases. The good news now is that houses are unlikely to be at risk unless the loan is part of a regulated mortgage contract after the changes invoked by the FSA and there can be no doubt as to whether or not these are in force.

unbelievable! Whilst we've been discussing this my wife has come back to find a car in our space and another parked just inside the garage door partially obscuring the access and making it extremely difficult to get in and out of the garage! I'm sorely tempted to go down there with a hammer, but realise this won't help our case at all......

The roller door is controlled by remote controlled plips which we bought at the same time as buying the flat. There is a delay when leaving and my neighbours tell me that there are a number of chancers who sit in the lane near the garage waiting for us to leave and then quickly drive in before the door closes. Others simply retained their plip when they sold the flat and the new owners bought replacements from the building's factors.

helpful and entertaining idea but it would inconvenience those neighbours who legitimately use their own spaces. The local police suggested we install bollard in each space but we already have an electric roller door (maintained at great expense) and pay for insurance, lighting and general maintenance proportionate to how many spaces we own. My logic was that is as wrong as if someone had parked in own driveway or garage so surely I should be able to do something?

I realise this may be unusual and not often seen in these hallowed pages but we have a problem with unauthorised parkers using our parking spaces. As expected, the local police have confirmed they are powerless to stop this happening as "its not a public highway" and as the Scottish Courts have outlawed clamping in Scotland, we can't use that tactic either. We are becoming quietly demented by a combination of things: not being able to use the designated parking space we paid handsomely to buy and continue to pay both maintenance and council tax on and not being able to do much about it. The problem is magnified by the inertia of our property factors whose stock answer is to contact DVLA to get the owners details and then write asking them to desist from parking inside our security controlled, locked garage area. Whilst we suspect that they may be ex-property owners who kept hold of their garage entry "plips", or friends of same, it doesn't alter the fact that they shouldn't be in there. Any ideas anyone?