The debt will remain outstanding but it not enforceable. Under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless they can produce such an agreement, the alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

Hi David Who is the DCA? Lowell's? Anyway, whoever they are do a full CCA and SARS request on them using the standard template letters. Send a payment for 1 pound for the CCA and 10 pounds for the SARS. Personally, i would recommend in your SARS request also asking for a coopy of the ded of assignment or transfer document-this shows that they have actually got the rights to the debt. Remember at all times, it is up to the collector or DCA to prove that they are entitled to collect the debt, it is not your job to do that work for them.

I fully understand your point of view. however, as i understand it, and as I said earlier, I am not a lawyer, just because there is no CCA, does not mean that the debt does not exist. That is why various DCAs can chase you over the coming years. However, they cannot enforce the repayment, they can just try and give you enough stress to try and make you pay. Personally, I think it is easier to have a "get lost" template letter that says you will not enter into a dialogue with any of them, rather than try and negotiate over a collectible debt. have a search around and you will find examples of template letter to use for unenforceable CCAs.

1999, so 10 years, no CCAs.

Hi As I said, I am not a lawyer, but I took legal advice. As it happens, I got it for free. By the way, a point I have missed in my earlier post is to bluff i.e. For God's sake, don't actually tell them why the CCA is unanforceable, in your (or your Solicitor's opinion). Use a standard letter that simply says that they have not provided you with a true copy of the original CCA. Once it is in dispute, it is the job of the DCA to prove that it is correct, not you. Once in dispute you do not have to make any payments, nor can they demand any, nor can they add interest to the account i.e. dispute for a long time and the account is on hold. Additionally, when you state that "I'm also not sure that debts can be sold on without a properly executed agreement", I agree. Use a template letter and ask for a copy. I never got a copy from any of my creditors, maybe i will use that in the future if I need to. You can ask for a copy at the same time that you request the CCA or SARS. Put it this way. If you owed your credit card company 10 thousands pounds and the account went into default and some guy in a scruffy plastic mac appeared on your door step to claim the money owed to them, would you give him the cash? Of course not, so why would you just pay it straight to a DCA who hide behind a flashy letterhead or website, that you can have made for a few pounds yourself? It is up to them to prove "ownership" of the debt, not you. Their job is to lie, intimidate and work outside the law. Our job is to stand up to them. That is what I have done and I have won. I am not an expert nor a lawyer.

Hi As I said in my part of the thread, I am not a Lawyer and I am certainly familiar with secured lending and therefore cannot comment on that aspect of CCAs. I engaged the services of a Lawyer to advise on the enofrceability of my unsecured loan CCA, I was told that it was not enforceable and when i sent a letter to CapQuest debt collectors they replied in writing that they did not have a "true copy of the original CCA". This does not, however, wipe the debt out, it just means that they cannot enforce it through the courts. so yes, you can further DCAs chasing-the debt could be sold on again. However, look at threads that talk about harassment, threats, intimidation, etc and i think you will find plenty of information and template letters there to use in these circumstances. Let's be logical, anyone who keeps pestering you payment on an unenforcceable debt has got too be backing a loser. Wiith DCAs, keep cool and calm , appear the politest person ever to be in debt and over time they will drop themselves in it big time!

Hi CDS I know how you feel, I had similar problems, although only over a shorter period than you. The problem seems to be in two parts. Firstly, most of the posts are about Egg credit cards, presumably because Egg gave them out to anyone, like confetti at a wedding, so there are obviously more people questioning those CCAs. Secondly, the posts are full of well-meaning, but ill informed people, claiming that this is a reason to enforce, that is a reason not to enforce, etc. now I am not a Lawyer, but as I understand it some things would allow the CCA to be disputed and therefore any collections action or payments or interest would have to be frozen until the dispute is resolved. An example would be an unsigned agreement. This can apparently be resolved in court, assuming that all parties turn up. Something like no cooling off period would not on it's own be enough to warrant unenforecability. An unenforecable agreement is one where even the court is not allowed to make changes. This would have to be something like terms and conditions missing from the body of the Contract, as is the case in mine. they can, apparently, be in a separate booklet, but this would also have to be signed by both parties and I certainly never signed a second document. Like I say, I am no lawyer, so I contacted one who knows about such things. he said that in his opinion my CCA was unenforecable, mainly because there were no signed terms and conditions included in the agreement, which was only two pages long (unumbered) and because the total charge for credit is not on the agreement. Secondary to that, there was no mention of any colling off period. he drafted me a letter to send to them, and they responded by positively accepting that it is not a true copy of the original and the account is suspended-yes, I have it in writing. They are hoping that Egg will come up with something, but there is anything for them to produce.

There are two easy answers to that: Firstly, in that case, I don't expect hear anything else from them about collecting the alleged debt. Secondly, whether they want to reply or not, it's all down to the law. If they have tried to collect and continue to try and collect, unlawfully, an unenforceable debt, they may choose not correspond with me (lucky me ), but they will have to correspond with all the regulatory bodies, such as the OFT, Banking Ombudsman, etc. Both scenarios suit me.

If it helps, I can you scans of all letters and contracts, but we will have to do it through secure messaging. Also the letter I sent to capQuest that put the fear of god into them!

Hi CDS I had the same problem i.e ;ots of info on Egg cards and little on CCAs for loans. First, I got a solicitor to look over it who speicalises in this. I then sent a letter specifying that what they supplied me was not a true copy of the CCA and accordingly, they are in default. In a letter to me they accpeted this in writing, I have to say I was a little surprised, albeit pleasantly. Egg cannot supply anything else, because there isn't anything else signed, so the agreement is unenforceable. Quite simple if you stick to your guns.

just received a letter from Lowell's Debt collectors, who purchased a credit card debt of mine from MBNA, previously Abbey National, a few years ago. The debt was just over 10 thousand pounds. I sent off a payment in May 2009 to get a copy of the CCA. They said it was taking a long time to search for it in a recent letter. Yesterday, I was informed that Abbey did not keep records going back that far and the debt has been written off. Simple as that. For completeness, I also have two other CCAs with Egg and they are both in dispute because they are unenforceable, as apparently were many loan agreements from Egg dating back to that time-mine were 2002 and 2003. these debts cannot be legally collected and cannot be challenged in the County court (I live abroad anyway!). Hope this encourages you.

I just received a letter from Lowell's Debt collectors, who purchased a credit card debt of mine from MBNA, previously Abbey National, a few years ago. The debt was just over 10 thousand pounds. I sent off a payment in May 2009 to get a copy of the CCA. They said it was taking a long time to search for it in a recent letter. Yesterday, I was informed that Abbey did not keep records going back that far and the debt has been written off. Simple as that. For completeness, I also have two other CCAs with Egg and they are both in dispute because they are unenforceable, as apparently were many loan agreements from Egg dating back to that time-mine were 2002 and 2003. these debts cannot be legally collected and cannot be challenged in the County court (I live abroad anyway!). Hope this encourages you.

To update this thread, it turns out that the agreement is none enforceable and even CapQuest have confirmed that in writing. therefore they cannot legally chase this money, besides which I live abroad and so the County court system does not stretch this far! Furthermore, the same applies to a second Egg Loan, which is also disputed and on hold. I also had a debt of just over 10000 pounds (ten thousand0 with Abbey and they sold the debt to Lowell's, who now say the card agreement is so old, there isno copy any more and they have written to me to say that they will not contact me any further to pursue the loan. So to anyone out there reading this, get your CCA from your creditor and see if it can be disputed.

Hi I managed to get some "official" legal advice on this and thought I would pass it on to anyone who has a similar CCA. CCA problems fall intto two categories. Firstly, badly executed agreements. If you dispute such an agreement the whole thing is put on hold, they cannot take payments from you or add any interest or charges. At least this buys valuable breathing space. In the case of the agreement that Imposted above, it is more than likely unenforceable. This is because the "prescribed terms and conditions" are not included in the two page agreement. These terms should either be part of the agreement and therefore signed for, or if in a separate document that should also be signed by both parties and should be produced when the CCA request goes in. Obviously, that is not the case here. Furthermore, they quote the amount of money borrowed and payment terms but they are supposed to quote the actual cgharge for credit as a separate figure, which obviously they have not. Finally, there is no indication of a colling off period. Now don't necessarily think that the debt just goes away. yes, you can dispute it for years to come and it may be that other DCAs jump on the case. Persoanlly, I know some would disagree with me, I would rather use this as a negotiation tool for a reduced settlement. I sent a letter to CapQuest drafted up by a Lawyer, sotty I cannot post it until I know the outcome,, but basically as a result of this CapQuest have gone very quiet, so I am anticipating the ability to settle F+F for a low figure very soon.

Hi I have still not received any further replies and remain somewhat in the dark as to the status of the CCA. Basically, is it enforceable or not? I also wrote to the National Debt Lin e two weeks ago, but they are snowed under, they cannot respond in a timely manner. The reason that this is important to me is that there are also two other debts that I have with Egg, for a credit card and a second unsecured loan. I will get copies of the CCAs shortly. Therefore I need to decide whether to challenge or try and settle at a lower amount. I prefer to challenge, but need to know how and the starting point is whether the CCA above is enforecable. Many thanks! Al

Hi Thanks for the replies so far. However, what I could really do with is knowing why the CCA could be deemed to be unenforceable. The only things I spotted myself so far are two things, but I am not sure if this is enough to make it entirely unenforceable: 1) I note that there is no reference to a cooling off period. 2) It also refers to various clauses in the personal loan agreement terms and conditions (e.g. clauses 6,7,8 or 9), however, as you can see, the CCA was only two pages long and there were no other documents included with it when I received it a few days ago. Many thanks!

Hi! I have all the info needed here to get started and made it as short and succinct as possible. In the early 2000's, I took out an Egg credit card and two unsecured loans. I kept all of the payments up to date and never missed a payment. I then started to work abroad and came home for short break and paid off 5000 pounds on my Egg card, leaving a small balance. During a routine call to Egg, they started to question my circumstances. Once they knew I was working abroad they the card would be "frozen", so I could no longer use it, but I would still have to make the monthly payments as usual. I used to make use of the interest free offers and then pay it off, so i guess I was an "unprofitable" customer, and i was amongst the first ever to be kicked out by Egg for that reason. They said their customers have to be in the UK all the time. There followed a big row between me and them, whereby I said that if would not let me use the account due to being abroad, how come they would accept payments from my UK bank (Smile), which I still have to this date at my UK address. I stopped payments for a while and then reinstated small monthly payments to the card and two loans. I agreed with Egg three ways to contact me whilsst abroad: using their secure email on their banking website, using my personal email and to my UK postal address. This is not where I live, of course, just somebody who colleccts my post and forwards it to me around the world. I explained that post to my UK address would be forwarded to me periodically. Needless to say, every time I received forwarded post, the bag was full of letters from Egg and a whole plethora of debt collection agencies. I meticulously took the time to write letters and emails to each agent and also Egg, confirming once again what i initially had said, that I was working and living abroad. Knowing this, Egg played a nasty trick of issuing a County Court summons (Northampton bulk court-surprise, surprise!) through a collection agency's solicitor and they won by default because I didn't even know about it at the time. The claim was against one account only, one of the unsecured loan accounts. When a later batch of post was forwarded to me, I found the County Court judgment against me. Firstly, I called the solicitor from abroad and said that he already knew I was abroad, and he seemed very embarrassed. Then I wrote to the County Court with a whole load of info. This was copies of letters to all the agencies explaining that I was abroad, likewise letters repeating amny times, the same details to Egg, also a copy of my working agreement on a cruise ship, certified and witnessed by the Chief Petty Officer (Accountant). Of course, the judgment was set aside and remains so to this day. I still maintain monthly payments at reduced rates. Some considerable time later, in a subsequent batch of post, I received a letter from CapQuest saying that they had purchased one of the debts from Egg i.e. the one from the bulk County Court, one of the two unsecured loans. So I switched my monthly payments to CapQuest. The credit card and second loan remain with Egg. However, despite the fact that I am now working in China and also sent Capquest letters saying so (even some Chinese documentation) they have been repeatedly sending letters (right up until the present time)threatening County Court action to my UK address and emailing me weekly, also asking for higher monthly payments. Furthermore, the unsecured loan debt at the time of default with Egg was around 2600 pounds. With late payment charges, added interest and other penalty charges it was bumped up to around 3800 pounds by the time it was sold to Capquest. Now I note CapQuest are adding interest charges to the debt. Currently 800 pounds or so, taking it up to near 4600 pounds. I did not realise that debt collection agencies could add interest payments to purchased debts. I recently sent by international DHL recorded courier delivery, two cheque payments of 1 pound and 10 pounds to CapQuest for a true copy of my original CCA and my Data Protection data, along with standard template letters asking for this information. It has been like pulling teeth. They have cashed both cheques but refuse to send me the data Protection info. Firstly, they don't want to use email to send the Data Protection Act stuff, as they say it is unsecure, despite using the same to ask me for payments and threat leagl action every few days for ages. Secondly because I don't live in the UK (although they are quite happy to send letters, threaten County Court action and receive payments from my UK address) and thirdly, they claim to have lost my Chinese address. This is despite the fact that DHL international couriers confirmed to me a signed delivery of the documents to Capquest's Fleet, hampshire, address, a few days ago. The package, by Chinese law, had to inform the recipient of the sender's address in China (i.e. my address). Yesterday, they emailed me, saying that I was sending the letters and cheques from within the UK, which assumes that I am really living there (not in China), or that I have a contact who is fraudently signing my letters and cheques for me! They also refuse to acknowledge the set aside County court Judgement, saying that it never happened! However, they did send a copy of the CCA. I have attached the two pages for your inspection. I am not sure if you can read the scan, but it states the following: Date of agreement: 26th May 2002 Signatures: mine and theirs, are both on the document. Interest rate: 9.51% APR: 9.9% Loan: 6000 pounds Monthly instalments: 105.41 pounds It also refers to various clauses in the personal loan agreement terms and conditions (e.g. clauses 6,7,8 or 9), however, as you can see, the CCA was only two pages long and there were no other documents included with it when I received it a few days ago. I also note that does not mention a cooling off period. So, there we have it. Any suggestions? Many thanks from me here living and working in China to those who reply! A Hi! This is my first thread! I have all the info needed here to get started and made it as short and succinct as possible. In the early 2000's, I took out an Egg credit card and two unsecured loans. I kept all of the payments up to date and never missed a payment. I then started to work abroad and came home for short break and paid off 5000 pounds on my Egg card, leaving a small balance. During a routine call to Egg, they started to question my circumstances. Once they knew I was working abroad they the card would be "frozen", so I could no longer use it, but I would still have to make the monthly payments as usual. I used to make use of the interest free offers and then pay it off, so i guess I was an "unprofitable" customer, and i was amongst the first ever to be kicked out by Egg for that reason. They said their customers have to be in the UK all the time. There followed a big row between me and them, whereby I said that if would not let me use the account due to being abroad, how come they would accept payments from my UK bank (Smile), which I still have to this date at my UK address. I stopped payments for a while and then reinstated small monthly payments to the card and two loans. I agreed with Egg three ways to contact me whilsst abroad: using their secure email on their banking website, using my personal email and to my UK postal address. This is not where I live, of course, just somebody who colleccts my post and forwards it to me around the world. I explained that post to my UK address would be forwarded to me periodically. Needless to say, every time I received forwarded post, the bag was full of letters from Egg and a whole plethora of debt collection agencies. I meticulously took the time to write letters and emails to each agent and also Egg, confirming once again what i initially had said, that I was working and living abroad. Knowing this, Egg played a nasty trick of issuing a County Court summons (Northampton bulk court-surprise, surprise!) through a collection agency's solicitor and they won by default because I didn't even know about it at the time. The claim was against one account only, one of the unsecured loan accounts. When a later batch of post was forwarded to me, I found the County Court judgment against me. Firstly, I called the solicitor from abroad and said that he already knew I was abroad, and he seemed very embarrassed. Then I wrote to the County Court with a whole load of info. This was copies of letters to all the agencies explaining that I was abroad, likewise letters repeating amny times, the same details to Egg, also a copy of my working agreement on a cruise ship, certified and witnessed by the Chief Petty Officer (Accountant). Of course, the judgment was set aside and remains so to this day. I still maintain monthly payments at reduced rates. Some considerable time later, in a subsequent batch of post, I received a letter from CapQuest saying that they had purchased one of the debts from Egg i.e. the one from the bulk County Court, one of the two unsecured loans. So I switched my monthly payments to CapQuest. The credit card and second loan remain with Egg. However, despite the fact that I am now working in China and also sent Capquest letters saying so (even some Chinese documentation) they have been repeatedly sending letters (right up until the present time)threatening County Court action to my UK address and emailing me weekly, also asking for higher monthly payments. Furthermore, the unsecured loan debt at the time of default with Egg was around 2600 pounds. With late payment charges, added interest and other penalty charges it was bumped up to around 3800 pounds by the time it was sold to Capquest. Now I note CapQuest are adding interest charges to the debt. Currently 800 pounds or so, taking it up to near 4600 pounds. I did not realise that debt collection agencies could add interest payments to purchased debts. I recently sent by international DHL recorded courier delivery, two cheque payments of 1 pound and 10 pounds to CapQuest for a true copy of my original CCA and my Data Protection data, along with standard template letters asking for this information. It has been like pulling teeth. They have cashed both cheques but refuse to send me the data Protection info. Firstly, they don't want to use email to send the Data Protection Act stuff, as they say it is unsecure, despite using the same to ask me for payments and threat leagl action every few days for ages. Secondly because I don't live in the UK (although they are quite happy to send letters, threaten County Court action and receive payments from my UK address) and thirdly, they claim to have lost my Chinese address. This is despite the fact that DHL international couriers confirmed to me a signed delivery of the documents to Capquest's Fleet, hampshire, address, a few days ago. The package, by Chinese law, had to inform the recipient of the sender's address in China (i.e. my address). Yesterday, they emailed me, saying that I was sending the letters and cheques from within the UK, which assumes that I am really living there (not in China), or that I have a contact who is fraudently signing my letters and cheques for me! They also refuse to acknowledge the set aside County court Judgement, saying that it never happened! However, they did send a copy of the CCA. I have attached the two pages for your inspection. I am not sure if you can read the scan, but it states the following: Date of agreement: 26th May 2002 Signatures: mine and theirs, are both on the document. Interest rate: 9.51% APR: 9.9% Loan: 6000 pounds Monthly instalments: 105.41 pounds It also refers to various clauses in the personal loan agreement terms and conditions (e.g. clauses 6,7,8 or 9), however, as you can see, the CCA was only two pages long and there were no other documents included with it when I received it a few days ago. I also note that does not mention a cooling off period. So, there we have it. Any suggestions? Many thanks from me here living and working in China to those who reply! A

Hi Ida As I am new, did I post this in the correct place? I only got replies from you. Looking through the forums, I note that sometimes there are many replies. In the Bank Action group, there is section specifically about Egg. Should I have posted there? Thanks for your help! A

Hi Ida I see what you mean now. There could have been other pages missing, which would have been, for example, if my two pages were numbered 1 and 4. That would have meant two pages missing from the copy. However, I have just double checked and there was no numbering onn the two pages that I scanned. On that basis there could be a whole document that is part of the CCA, but it was not sent to me, and there is nothing in the page numbering to suggest that anything is missing, apart from referrals to terms and conditions, which were not part of the copy supplied.

Hi Ida The pages are single sided, so just two pages, nothing else in there. So when they refer to terms and conditions, etc, the info is not there. There was , stapled to the letter, copy of my original direct debit mandate. That's the lot.......

Hi Thanks for your reply. I have now changed to full sized images. A

Hi! This is my first thread! I have all the info needed here to get started and made it as short and succinct as possible. In the early 2000's, I took out an Egg credit card and two unsecured loans. I kept all of the payments up to date and never missed a payment. I then started to work abroad and came home for short break and paid off 5000 pounds on my Egg card, leaving a small balance. During a routine call to Egg, they started to question my circumstances. Once they knew I was working abroad they the card would be "frozen", so I could no longer use it, but I would still have to make the monthly payments as usual. I used to make use of the interest free offers and then pay it off, so i guess I was an "unprofitable" customer, and i was amongst the first ever to be kicked out by Egg for that reason. They said their customers have to be in the UK all the time. There followed a big row between me and them, whereby I said that if would not let me use the account due to being abroad, how come they would accept payments from my UK bank (Smile), which I still have to this date at my UK address. I stopped payments for a while and then reinstated small monthly payments to the card and two loans. I agreed with Egg three ways to contact me whilsst abroad: using their secure email on their banking website, using my personal email and to my UK postal address. This is not where I live, of course, just somebody who colleccts my post and forwards it to me around the world. I explained that post to my UK address would be forwarded to me periodically. Needless to say, every time I received forwarded post, the bag was full of letters from Egg and a whole plethora of debt collection agencies. I meticulously took the time to write letters and emails to each agent and also Egg, confirming once again what i initially had said, that I was working and living abroad. Knowing this, Egg played a nasty trick of issuing a County Court summons (Northampton bulk court-surprise, surprise!) through a collection agency's solicitor and they won by default because I didn't even know about it at the time. The claim was against one account only, one of the unsecured loan accounts. When a later batch of post was forwarded to me, I found the County Court judgment against me. Firstly, I called the solicitor from abroad and said that he already knew I was abroad, and he seemed very embarrassed. Then I wrote to the County Court with a whole load of info. This was copies of letters to all the agencies explaining that I was abroad, likewise letters repeating amny times, the same details to Egg, also a copy of my working agreement on a cruise ship, certified and witnessed by the Chief Petty Officer (Accountant). Of course, the judgment was set aside and remains so to this day. I still maintain monthly payments at reduced rates. Some considerable time later, in a subsequent batch of post, I received a letter from CapQuest saying that they had purchased one of the debts from Egg i.e. the one from the bulk County Court, one of the two unsecured loans. So I switched my monthly payments to CapQuest. The credit card and second loan remain with Egg. However, despite the fact that I am now working in China and also sent Capquest letters saying so (even some Chinese documentation) they have been repeatedly sending letters (right up until the present time)threatening County Court action to my UK address and emailing me weekly, also asking for higher monthly payments. Furthermore, the unsecured loan debt at the time of default with Egg was around 2600 pounds. With late payment charges, added interest and other penalty charges it was bumped up to around 3800 pounds by the time it was sold to Capquest. Now I note CapQuest are adding interest charges to the debt. Currently 800 pounds or so, taking it up to near 4600 pounds. I did not realise that debt collection agencies could add interest payments to purchased debts. I recently sent by international DHL recorded courier delivery, two cheque payments of 1 pound and 10 pounds to CapQuest for a true copy of my original CCA and my Data Protection data, along with standard template letters asking for this information. It has been like pulling teeth. They have cashed both cheques but refuse to send me the data Protection info. Firstly, they don't want to use email to send the DPA stuff, as they say it is unsecure, despite using the same to ask me for payments and threat leagl action every few days for ages. Secondly because I don't live in the UK (although they are quite happy to send letters, threaten County Court action and receive payments from my UK address) and thirdly, they claim to have lost my Chinese address. This is despite the fact that DHL international couriers confirmed to me a signed delivery of the documents to Capquest's Fleet, hampshire, address, a few days ago. The package, by Chinese law, had to inform the recipient of the sender's address in China (i.e. my address). Yesterday, they emailed me, saying that I was sending the letters and cheques from within the UK, which assumes that I am really living there (not in China), or that I have a contact who is fraudently signing my letters and cheques for me! They also refuse to acknowledge the set aside County court Judgement, saying that it never happened! However, they did send a copy of the CCA. I have attached the two pages for your inspection. I am not sure if you can read the scan, but it states the following: Date of agreement: 26th May 2002 Signatures: mine and theirs, are both on the document. Interest rate: 9.51% APR: 9.9% Loan: 6000 pounds Monthly instalments: 105.41 pounds It also refers to various clauses in the personal loan agreement terms and conditions (e.g. clauses 6,7,8 or 9), however, as you can see, the CCA was only two pages long and there were no other documents included with it when I received it a few days ago. I also note that does not mention a cooling off period. So, there we have it. Any suggestions? Many thanks from me here living and working in China to those who reply! A

Hi I am a new member. I wanted to post a new thread, but do not know how???? I am registered as a basic member. Sorry to jump in on this thread, but i could not see any other of getting this info other than by asking. Many thanks for your help.