No intrusion at all. What is interesting is their very narrow interpretation of the Act - like someone has read 78(1) shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,-- Consumer Credit Act 1974 (c.39) (a) the state of the account, (b) the amount, if any currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and © the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor. This clearly ignores reading ALL the other things which must be in the original true copy of the signed executed agreement. They have also clearly missed the fact that an agreement cannot be reconstructed - why send you the current T&C - you (might have) signed on the basis of previous T&C, and why send the true agreement unsigned... amazing. The more I read the more I believe that very very few CCP have complied with the Act. Z

CCA S78.1 (1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of 15 new pence , 1, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer, CCA 78.6 If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)-- (a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and (b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence. CCA 167 - Penalties 167.--(1) An offence under a provision of this Act specified in column 1 of Schedule 1 is triable in the mode or modes indicated in column 3, and on conviction is punishable as indicated in column 4 (where a period of time indicates the maximum term of imprisonment, and a monetary amount indicates the maximum fine, for the offence in question). (2) A person who contravenes any regulations made under section 44, 52, 53, or 112, or made under section 26 by virtue of section 54, commits an offence. Now cross reference BAs Wiki link for details. Now do you see? Z

Thanks Jones, that adds a great edge to this thread which I find easier to refer people to rather than re-invent the wheel. Cristal is in exactly the same boat as me... I am working out our next moves Cristal.... my head hurts but its probably the Sunday booze.... ah well my excuse is the sun is out and I need several beers to keep cool.... Z

Nick Lets be clear about this and you too should be because they will run rings around you. There are two seperate processes for each agreement and you must be clear in your dealings with them. Look here for my strategy http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/57839-newman-debt-collection-agents-3.html#post582305 from #49 it will give you an idea of what these are. You need to send BOTH requests for the complete picture - to the CCP and copy Link into it. It may seem strange but I would actually not push for judgement since it is likely to be appealed or stayed, but I would ask the judge for a month stay to allow you to obtain the information on the SAR and provide you with information you need. Don't be in such a hurry, get the facts for both agreements, then seek advice here in how best to proceed. Also, what is the POC details of your case against MBNA - a brief summary will do. Z

No what I am saying is that for some accounts like bank accounts - these are not regulated by the CCA (yes I am aware of discussions re overdrafts) and they are subject to T&C which the bank uses to terminate the account. Other accounts (or should I say agreements) are regulated by CCA and so even if you are in dispute on one CC account, they should not be able to default you or cancel another as long as it is not indefault. So you say they have withdrawn facilities on what? Z

Eventually Z

thanks BA Z

Ross, The anonymous nature of this site leads to immediate handbags at dawn incidents like this. Smoothy has come across quite harsh, but he is really not at all like that. And as Peter said he knows from personal experience how easy it is to get into these really trivial exchanges. I too have opened my editor and put my keyboard in it without engaging brain: let me repeat - imho nobody on this site is trying to do anything but be helpful and explore some extremely complex issues. So lets all have a nice hug and go back to helping each other. Good luck with your approach, you may wish to pm Karnevil she could arrange the post to be moved. You might also find my own strategy useful, it is a devloping one, but pull anything out you might find useful http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/57839-newman-debt-collection-agents-3.html#post582305 from #49 Z

ahhhhhhh I thought it was just the CC you were referring to. The short answer is that it depends on the agreement you have for the others. Current account & Savings account - yes they cover themselves I believe in T&Cs, isa - I do not think so, nor interestingly any other regulated agreement unless you were in default. Z

JC yes but where does it stipulate the type of offence and likely punishment - the Act does not cover this detail - more to the point I dont understand s167 where are the modes columns in Schedule 1 it refers to?? Laiste, I have complimented your skills in a seperate thread - keep this standard up and your strength up, you know you have justice on your side - even though some (probably jaded) judge cannot follow your approach and logic. Judges like this do not appear to be unbiased and I would certainly complain about him to the judiciary, and is it possible to request an assessment of the correctness of his direction of the case and get the case transferred to another judge? Z

Blimey, your up early... that is a different issue - under the DPA the agreement will have a phrase agree to share data - this is your consent under DPA, in doing so as Tam points out you allow them to process your data through CRAs. But assignment of debt... maybe law has changed which allows creditor to do this without any mention in T&C. I was researching assignment a few weeks ago but couldnt find anything that suggested the creditor was obliged to issue anything in respect of the assignment details except that the new creditor was obliged to notify you that he now owned the debt. The SAR should contain details of the DCA own charges and if I was ever faced with those, I would challenge them as being unfair or penalty charges. Z

Nick In my opinion you have two seperate agreements in differing stages of dispute. I would go back to court explain the status of both, show the letter from MBNA and request that the order should be for the full amount payable directly to you. Also, send default letter to Link telling them that they are not allowed sell your debt while in default. Yet another example of MBNA distorting matters ... Z

Laiste I caught a flavour of some of your arguments in the last few posts. I am tired - too much drink - so need sleep and to be sober to soak up your thread. Looks very interesting. btw, if anybody knows why a CCA failed request after 30 days is punishable by £2,500 or 3 months imprisonment - can they let me know their source. Thanks Z

I have been posting the upto £2500 and/or 3 months imprisonment for a while. I really did see a detailed explanation somewhere.... have to go search again Z

rhys, First, the CCA is a very complex piece of legislation. By that I mean that there is within the legislation a requirement which a debtor may invoke - he may request a true copy of the executed agreement. The standard letter I believe is letter N in the templates library. You must understand a few things about this legislation. The CCA is very specific about what constitutes an agreement. Every financial transaction from £50 to £25,000 is covered by the Act except for property agreements. This thread discusses what happens if the creditor cannot produce a true copy of the agreement. In this case - where there is NO agreement then you can usually push for the debt to be reduced to zero - I have done this on 3 old agreements worth £6k. But there are more agreements which we have discussed which have a dubious discrepancy in them. Now in these cases, many people are writing back saying that they are unexecuted agreements. What this means is that for some of these agreements the creditor could ask a court for an order to enforce them, for others the discrepancies are simply too great. For these latter, we are currently at a standoff - neither party wishing to go to court in case they lose. There is very little case law. So it is a big risk and gamble. btw nobody actually denies their debt (usually) simply that the creditor cannot enforce (collect) it. So please do not think it is simply a request and wait for 30 days... it is much much more than that. x

Corn, as I understand they first sent you an application form and then this cobbled agreement? I would write back and say that you believe that what you received is a reconstructed agreement which is not permitted under the original request for a true copy of the original executed agreement nor would be allowed by a county court and that they are still in default and must supply you with the true copy of your agreement. Z Z

uni First thing is - from a simplistic view - if you say you have no agreement, then you havent one so why would the bank continue to allow you to use the facilities. One thing I am interested in is what is the form of withdrawal of the facilities? ie how did they tell you - because - whilst THEY are in default they cannot make any enforcement at all!!! seems a bit peverse not to stop you using something you havent signed for and allow you to knock up more debt, but in a way it seems an acknowledgement that there is no agreement - so how did they phrase it?? Z

Looks like you struck Gold(fish)!! You need to reply something to the effect that - thank you for the true copy of the agreement, since it does not contain my signature then you are formally in default on the agreement. Whilst in default you cannot enforce this agreement, any attempt to do so is unlawful, you cannot make charges or charge interest, you cannot default the agreement nor share any data with third parties. If you have raised any defaults on this agreement you must immediately withdraw them. Please confirm by return your compliance with your obligations under default. If you feel lucky you might wish also to attempt to recover all interest paid since you first had the card - this IS untried afaik - so also issue a SAR to get the interest and any other charges which shouldnt have been made. Z

Sheila First start a new thread so that folk can help just you work your way through the action. You need to set it up in the aprropriate Bank section, if its YB then this is the correct forum. You need to step back a bit and give us a little background of what it's all about, penalty charges, what you have done so far - raised a SAR, calculated your schedule, sent your refund request, sent LBA, submitted N1 and completed AQ? The more we know the better we can guide you - well Caro probably since I'm a novice!!! Also I saved this link which is a bit like you, go read: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/76402-so-desperate-some-help.html Z

Sorry Dave, Couldnt find where I read it so had to ask for help go http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/33174-consumer-credit-act-agreements-256.html#post690604 post #5119 Refers to Penalties within the Act.

Hi Gang Had a cagger on another thread quizzing me, quite rightly, as to where in the regs it says that non supply of CCA after 30 days is a criminal offence punishable by upto £2500 or 3 months imprisonment. I have read it but cannot find it in this thread... anyone??? Z

and i got two computers running in my office at home, one is work which is quiet, and this one is busy...

Caro What a clever idea. The court presumably will look at both AQ and I suspect issue a stay for a month. When I get that I will take the initiative. Z

thats what i said diddle i.... being a bit lazy with typing this out so I just edited it in ... by charges I meant ANY charges including interest... Z

oops thanks ladybird - not awake yet. In that case do NOTHING - if they are not aware of the timeline why should you remind them.... THEN when it expires by say 2-3 days hit them with the letter!! Z