This is why I intend to find out how the figure has been calculated. The costs of sending the original bill are hardly legal "costs" because they are the same for both payers and non-payers. And "future attempts to collect the money" would bring additional costs anyway - e.g. bailiffs fees. What annoys me is that I am (presumably) paying for the overheads of running the department that carries out enforcement of council tax. This includes the costs of giving Council staff 30 days holiday and a final salary pension scheme - along with all the other inefficiences. If council tax was abolished then I wonder how much the basic rate of income tax would have to be increased by to cover the shortfall. Less than 1% I should think, especially when you consider how many Council workers you could sack as a result, and what you could do with the prime real estate where they work. In the meantime I just want to be treated fairly - and, as I stated earlier in my thread, I don't think it's fair to issue proceedings on two people after just one reminder sent addressed to both of them. The Council are clearly abusing the powers that they have under Council Tax Law to maximise profit at the expense of the taxpayer. And in my opinion they should stop doing it.

Was there a coursebook? I'd really love to read something that would make it easier to understand this legislation.

Hi Carpinjoy, and welcome to CAG. This could be the best thing to do, but I suggest you start your own thread in the relevant section of the forum (depending which bank it is). Then you can put all the facts in one place and you will get some specific help from people - plus your case won't get mixed up on this long thread. You can always post a link on here as well to help people find it. Good luck

I was in court today for Council Tax (see my thread for full report) and this issue came up in somebody else's case. The guy from the Council stated in court that the tenant is usually responsible for the Council Tax. He didn't mention about terms of the tenancy agreement, but did ask to see a copy without giving a reason, so perhaps what the other posters have said is true about whether it has that term in it or not about the tenant being liable. He also stated that the landlord is responsible in the case of "HMO" properties ("Houses of multiple occupancy") - which is where the property is divided up with locks on each bedroom door and separate rental agreements. As a general point, if you think you are going to win, you might as well go into court and show your evidence to the Magistrate, as you will then be given the opportunity to claim costs against the Council. If you lose then the worst that happens is that you get a liability order against you, which just means you have to make an arrangement to pay the Council Tax. In my opinion the Council are just firing these summons off to all and sundry because of the excessive profit that they make on them (today at my hearing it was over 2,000 summons and over £130,000 made for the Council just in "costs"). They shouldn't be allowed to bully thousands of people and then negotiate with the ones that they cocked up on 5 minutes before the hearing. Everyone should stand up and be counted until the system breaks down - Councils are out of control.

So, in summary, I had only a tiny and partial victory in that I am £18 better off than I was this morning. But I lost the case, and I still have to pay the £68 in addition to my 09/10 Council Tax. And they have the liability order to back them up. But I also had a fascinating day out, and it was my first experience of appearing in court. It certainly hasn’t dulled my desire to get my own back on the Council over this – if anything, their arrogance and moral bankruptcy has hardened my resolve. And, from a political view, I feel more strongly than before that there is something seriously immoral about the way Council Tax is being collected, and I intend to do something about it. I would recommend that anybody in this situation goes along to the hearing. You have nothing to lose, because by this point you have already incurred the costs. It took the Magistrates over an hour to hear 4 Council Tax cases, but over 2,000 people decided not to have their day in Court. If we all stood up to be counted, they simply wouldn’t be able to do this at all.

Finally we moved onto the list of people who had not turned up, some of whom had written letters to defend themselves. Some cases seemed to be in the hands of solicitors, and there was much hushed discussion and passing around of paperwork. My girlfriend was made jointly and severally liable for the same liability order as me, as her letter made the same arguments as I had about the two payments last year. And then came the most interesting part from my point of view. After reviewing documents submitted by Mr “D”, the Magistrates granted a total of 2,034 liability orders. Assuming each of these had the same £68 of costs added, that means that the Council obtained £138,312 out of today’s hearing. With £3 as the actual costs incurred, that means that the Council made a profit of £132,210. And this was mostly at the expense of the poorest local residents - from what I could gather. I was so outraged that I stood up and asked if the Council had really made a £130k profit out of today’s hearing. Of course, I was told that this was a question that should be asked at another time and place!

Lastly it was the turn of a Miss “T”. The Council had a assessed her for Council Tax on a house that she claimed she had sold last year. Mr “D” from the Council had a printout from a Land Registry website to prove she still owned it. But when Miss “T” said she could prove she had sold it, and the Land Registry must have made a mistake, the Council tried to withdraw the case, saying she would have to write to them with the details. Miss “T” then produced a document and said the case could be settled immediately. The Magistrates accepted this and stated that the liability order should not be granted. Miss “T” was offered costs against the Council, but she declined, saying she was just pleased to see the end of the matter.

Third up was A Mr “B”, who had long standing arguments with the Council going back 10 years. He had bought a derelict house and told the council he was not liable to Council Tax on it because it was not being lived in. They had sent a bill anyway, then a reminder and finally a summons, all to the derelict house (which didn’t even have a letter box). So they had obtained a liability order, then issued a statutory demand against him and tried to make him bankrupt for the sake of £500. That was all in the past, but in the current year the house was finally renovated and he was planning to rent it out later in the year. He was assessed for full Council Tax for the whole year and had now received a summons. He claimed that he had sent a letter to the Council pointing out their error prior to the summons, but the Council denied this in Court. He also tried to show a newspaper article about how the Council were meant to be helping people renovate empty houses, not prosecuting them, but he wasn’t allowed to talk about this because it wasn’t considered relevant to his case. The full liability order was granted against him.

I was up next and I started by asking if I could also represent my girlfriend at the same time. I was told no, she could only raise points if she attended court or wrote a letter. We had already anticipated that, so I had some letters with me. I was told to produce them when we came to the cases of people who hadn’t turned up. Mr “D” presented the Council’s case against me – just a list of facts, figures and dates, plus he mentioned the letter that they had sent me two days before the hearing. I said that I had written down my arguments and asked for permission to read them out – as it was my first time in court and wanted to make sure that I didn’t forget anything. Permission was granted, and this is what I said:- I’m very disappointed to have to appear in court today as I believe that XXXX Council has acted completely unreasonably in issuing a summons against me. They’ve made no attempt to sort things out amicably – they have my email address and phone number but resorted to completely unnecessary legal action. To send just one reminder notice to two people seems, to any reasonable layperson, a totally unfair level of warning that proceedings are going to be started and additional costs incurred. Mr “D” has admitted to me that the costs incurred by the Council in issuing this summons are just £3.00 – so by charging £68.00 they have made a profit of over 2,000%. I believe that the £68.00 charge has no justifiable basis whatsoever, and I will be using the Freedom of Information Act to find out how it has been calculated (if at all) and how much money the XXXX Council have made out of this practice. There appears to be a systematic and deliberate policy of minimal enforcement, swiftly followed by legal action. This operates in direct contrast to the requirements of the rest of the legal system, where disputes should be settled out of court wherever possible. I can only conclude that XXXX Council is treating court hearings as nothing more than a money-making exercise – a tax on the poor and the forgetful I would now like to point out that, under article 6 of the European Declaration of Human Rights, which must be incorporated into UK Law, every defendant in a criminal trial is entitled to certain inalienable rights (and Council Tax proceedings are considered a criminal matter for these purposes). [The Clerk then interrupted me to state that this was a civil, rather than a criminal case, and I replied that the European legislation considered that it was considered criminal, partly because you can go to prison for it. The Magistrate told me that I couldn’t go to prison today, and I said I was very pleased to hear it, before continuing with my speech:-] The right to be presumed innocent until you have been proved to be guilty – not a rubber stamping exercise of a Council computer printout The right to legal assistance – which [my girlfriend] cannot afford and has not been given the opportunity to take up. The right to question the main witnesses against you and to call witnesses of your own – we have both been denied that The right to adequate time to prepare your defence – which should mean no new evidence at the last moment – however the Council have written me a letter full of calculations, and this was dated only two days ago (and came through my letterbox this morning). It should also mean complying with my subject access request made last week under the Data Protection Act - which has been ignored. Now, of course I realise that these concerns are not going to be addressed here, and that I may need to take my case to a higher court, and I will therefore turn my attention to matters which CAN be dealt with today. I then stated that I had made two payments of £XX on a specific date in October last year, but the Council had claimed I only made one, according to an email they had sent me 5 days later. I showed the Magistrate a copy bank statement and a printout of an email from the Council. (I also had information to prove that my bank was making “faster payments” at this time, but I didn’t need to show this). There was a lot of discussion about whether or not something in the prior year was relevant to the liability order now being applied for. I said that it was because they actually owed me money from 08/09, yet their reminder had stated that I owed them £18.03. Mr “D” kept saying that I hadn’t made any payments at all on 09/10 and so the liability order should be granted. There was also a lot of discussion about the £68 figure. The Magistrates went off to deliberate for about 10 minutes. When they returned, they granted the liability order against me for the full 09/10 balance PLUS the £68 of costs. They did NOT include the £18.03 and they also said that I should go through the Council’s appeal process (which I had never heard of). This hardly seemed fair as they had obviously accepted that the amount claimed on the bill and in the reminder was potentially wrong in total – otherwise the liability order that they granted would have included the £18.03 from 08/09. Yet, because there was no challenge to the element relating to the 09/10 year, they still granted the liability order against me for that part, plus they awarded ALL of the £68 in costs against me as well. In fairness to the Magistrates, their hands really did seem to be legally tied on this, as they had explained at the beginning of the hearing.

By the time the Council Tax hearing came up – about 3 hours later than it was meant to happen – there were only 4 people left who wanted to speak in court. First was a guy called Mr “H”. I had already met him outside and he had told me that he comes every year to make a political point because he is so angry at all the money being wasted by the Council. The Clerk started by explaining how the Magistrates had no option but to obey the will of Parliament by granting liability orders over Council Tax disputes, almost whatever the circumstances. She would later keep repeating this, almost by way of an apology for the miscarriages of justice that she could see happening on a regular basis. Mr “H” stood up and gave a speech about how much money the Council had wasted in investments in Icelandic banks, self-serving publicity leaflets, and a few other local scandals. He had all the facts and figures and it was quite impressive, albeit irrelevant. The Magistrates granted the liability order against him for the full amount, at which point he produced a cheque from his wallet, handed it to Mr “D” from the Council, and told him to spend it on subsidising his gold-plated, tax-payer-subsidised pension scheme!

Let me describe the Court room to you. It was a modern building inside and room was rectangular, maybe 15 metres in width by 30 metres from front to back. At the far end sat three Magistrates. They were on a raised platform, like a kind of stage, and below them was the Clerk, who dealt with administrative matters and advised them on technical legal points. Behind them on the wall was a big crest, just like the one on the front of the Times newspaper. There were then rows of chairs filling the rest of the room, and some seats on the two sides facing inwards. There was also a big glass enclosure on one side, which I think was the dock, though I didn’t see it being used. I sat through the first case, a couple who had 9 children and who were accused of not sending one of them to school for a long period of time. The mother explained how the girl was frightened of school and the local authorities had done nothing to help her. The Magistrates retired for a good 15 minutes to discuss the case, then came back with their decision. The parents were fined £290 each – they didn’t look like they had £290 to me. I then moved outside while I waited for the Council Tax cases to come up. The waiting area was like any waiting room anywhere (hospital, airport, etc.) except that there were lots of security guards, a few policemen, and some shady looking characters. The security guards seemed fascinated about why I was there, and one of them told me how much she admired me for coming along to stand up for myself against the Council!

At this point I realised that the cases were all going to be heard, not on the 2nd floor where everybody had been sent, but on the 3rd floor. I couldn’t help feeling that some kind of deliberate policy was being used here to discourage people from getting as far as the courtroom – even the 2nd floor lift button was marked as “down only”! I decided to go upstairs and see what was happening, and I found that the Council Tax cases were scheduled for 30 minutes later than we had all been told. I obtained permission from the usher to go into the Court room (most cases are actually publicly accessible anyway). This was at a break between cases, so I sat at the back on my own. The magistrate asked me what I was doing there and I said that I was there for Council Tax but the usher had said that I could sit in for the earlier cases. I was told I would have a long wait! The magistrate immediately told me off for drinking from my water bottle, although she said that I could keep it with me. She said “Drinking is not permitted in the Court - I thought you would have worked that out”. I looked down at the jug of water and glass on her table, looked back up, and said “I’m very sorry”, as humbly as I could!

Here is my report - sorry it's a bit long, but hope you find it interesting I arrived at the Magistrates Court about 30 minutes early. After going through airport style security I was asked why I was there, and then directed to the 2nd floor for Council Tax. On the 2nd floor a Mr “J” from the Council took my name. He was booking everybody in so that they knew who was and was not attending. Everyone was invited to meeting rooms to “do deals” with Council staff so that their hearing did not go ahead. Some people came out looking happy and saying things like “I’ve won”, before leaving the building. What they had agreed to, and whether or not it included the £68 costs, I don’t know. One guy I spoke to told me that he had sold his house two years ago but was still being chased for the current year’s Tax. I know he later did a deal, but I don’t know what it was. I guess the Council really had the advantage at this point, because none of the people who had turned up knew what was coming next, or what their rights were. I was ushered into a room to meet Mr “D” – the guy from the Council who puts their case to the magistrates at the court hearings. He simply told me the time my case was likely to be heard and the room number where it was taking place. I guess he must have had me down as a troublemaker and wanted to size me up before the hearing. One of the Council staff told me that the Court would not let any cases start until the Council had spoken to everybody there – I guess they didn’t want to waste the Court’s time on matters that should have already been resolved. By this point I would say that at least 50 people had arrived. They were either sitting about waiting, they had gone into the meeting rooms, or they were chatting to their fellow accused. I was one of the most smartly dressed people there. Most were either students, mothers with babies, foreigners or ethnic minorities, and one lady was in a wheelchair. I have to say that at this point I felt slightly ashamed of the society that we live in, as it seemed like members of the lowest socio-economic groups had all been rounded up by the Government to pay their debts plus a £68 surcharge that they could probably not afford.

Right then, I've just come back from casting my vote in these extraordinary political times, and I'm about to bike down to the magistrates court for the hearing. I'm dressed in my normal work clothes - dark shoes, a dark suit and a business shirt (no tie). I've collated all the relevant paperwork and evidence into a neatly organised file, I've written out my arguments, and I've drawn up a one page plan so that I don't forget anything. I'm feeling quite nervous because it will be my first time in court, and of course it's normal to fear the unknown - but I'm also quite excited about the challenge. Win or lose (and it's more likely to be lose from what I gather) I will post a full report onto this thread so hopefully others can benefit from my experience. I asked my girlfriend this morning what's the worst that can happen. She replied "You could go to jail for contempt of court" - LOL!!! Yes, I will try to remain calm, whatever my personal views about the way the Council have behaved in this matter. Wish me luck, fellow CAGgers. As they say - nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Here's an interesting story from the news today in which an MP has accused HBOS of deliberate fraud running to hundreds of millions of pounds. AN MP has used his parliamentary privilege to attack alleged corruption at a major bank that has caused misery for a Cambridgeshire couple. (MPs are allowed to make allegations of fraud without fear of libel laws, as long as they speak only in the House of Commons) Latest news from Cambridge & Cambridgeshire. Cambridge sports, Cambridge jobs & Cambridge business - MP lays it on line over bank 'fraud'

I have told the Council verbally that I will be coming, and they have referred to this fact in the letter that they emailed to me yesterday. Perhaps I am missing something here, but how can you be summonsed to appear in court, but then be told that there is no time to hear your defence, so be found guilty anyway?!

I sent it last week (by special delivery) and told them I wanted it all back before the hearing so that I can have a fair trial! Now, if they were complying with this Human Rights thing that I keep going on about, they would probably delay the case for me (because Councils being Councils, they won't be able to return my SAR so quickly, or even in 40 days for that matter!) However, I strongly suspect that they won't even have opened my letter yet!

Thanks for your input, Conniff. Looks like I will have to show the bill is wrong! Any idea if I can represent my girlfriend in court? She may be unable to attend. I don't want to win and then find she is liable!

Not using the same area of law (Unfair Consumer Contract Regulations). However, when something doesn't "feel" fair, you often find that it isn't. This is, after all, mainly a tax on the poor to subsidise local authorities. In my opinion they are deliberately taking legal action to make a profit. In most legal areas, the law is concerned with returning the situation to how it would have been if nothing illegal had taken place. Not here. I may ask a question in the legal issues part of the forum later. And I may start a mini-campaign. And I may try to use the Freedom of Information Act to get them to justify their charges. But all that will have to come later - I have a summons to answer this week!

By "special powers" I mean that, if you compare this to credit card debt, you really don't get treated very fairly. One reminder (deemed to be received by EVERYONE at the property) is all it takes and they can follow it up with the summons, which then entitles them to deduct money from your salary and take things from your house. This is why I mentioned Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights which, love it or hate it, must be incorporated into UK Law. Now, a few years ago nobody thought that bank charges could be challenged, but then people started questioning it and it was decided (subject to appeal) that the Unfair Consumer Contracts Regulations applied. Imagine what would happen if these "costs" (mine includes a profit of more than 2,000%) went the same way. I have nothing to lose by going along to the hearing and, like I said, if I lose I will immediately pay the whole year's tax in advance, and the £68 of "costs". But I WILL get my own back on them. And revenge is a dish best served cold - so it won't all happen on Thursday.

In my post#10 above I quoted the acceptable defences, which I obtained from here: North Warwickshire Borough Council - Defence Against a Liability Order and Payment Are you saying that I cannot use any of these defences when I appear in court on Thursday?

Well done Bearington! I'm not sure why it seems such a victory when we manage to force our public servants to actually carry out the work they are paid (our taxes) to do - but for some reason that seems to be the way things have turned out!

Rocket1 You have my support on this. I am in total agreement with your analysis of the way that councils are behaving. Well done on obtaining that tape recording. Please keep it forever and make some good use of it. I hope to hear some of it on the radio one day. Or at least YouTube! The arrogance that these people are showing is astonishing, and they seem to be protected by the law most of the time (although I have my doubts about whether these liability order hearings are compliant with Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights - the Right to a Fair Trial). Anyway, I also at first became very angry about the Council's behaviour in my case, but am now taking a more patient and careful approach - collection of evidence, working within the regulatory and legal framework, and trying to get the right result. Before getting my own back! (But my case is far simpler than yours, and I am lucky enough to be able to afford the money they are asking for - it's not £10k!). I wish you the best of luck, and I look forward to hearing how it turns out.

All I will add is to say that I am in a very fortunate position because, if I lose, I can afford to (and will) immediately pay the full year's tax, including the £68 of costs. Let's call it a tactical withdrawl before the real fun starts! If I win I will come back on here with a BIG smile on my face.

As soon as I first received the summons, I sent a fax to the Council saying I disputed this. That was before I fully understood their incredible special legal powers and how you basically aren't entitled to any legal defence at these cases. Anyway, today the Council sent me an email with a PDF letter attached to it, in response to that fax. This letter did not come in the mail today (it's actually dated today) so I suppose I am meant to receive it tomorrow when I get home from work (i.e the night before the hearing!). Well, at least they have emailed it to me. Nothing was sent to my girlfriend, however, who has also been sent the same summons - which hardly seems fair! But then again, it hardly seems fair that ONE copy of a bill and ONE copy of a reminder is deemed sufficient warning that TWO people are due to receive a summons to appear at the magistrates court. Now, the interesting thing is that the Council seem VERY keen to make sure all disputes have been "explained" prior to the hearing. I wonder why that could be - perhaps they don't want any nasty surprises on the day. I won't post any more information on here until Thursday, just in case anybody has been lurking on here (unlikely, I know).