As far as any DCA is concerned the lack of a 'valid' CCA has to be proven in court. When you request a CCA what you are trying to do as the debtor is prove there is no valid CCA, this then means the debt is 'non-existent' and thus the default has to be removed from the CRA records. HOWEVER the only way of achieving such an outcome is for the creditor/DCA to take you to court via a CCJ in order to pass judgement. The court WILL NOT accept a judgement if you, the debtor, contest/defend that no valid CCA is in operation, and thus the debt does not exist and so cannot be enforced, and win. But the creditor/DCA has to take you to court in order for you to win. If they know there is no valid CCA it is very unlikely they will take you to court. They will instruct the DCA to 'pursue the debt' untill the DCA get fed up. Having no valid CCA just removes the CCJ option from the process. Now the DCAs know that, but sending you letters and calling you 3 times a day is also a part of the process that can only be stopped if you have proven the debt is 'non-existent'. Which you won't be able to because the creditor needs to issue a CCJ.

Your half correct. A default notice is registered against the account with the CRAs on one occassion, but the DCA can issue as many default notice letters as it wants, and normal procedure for a DCA is to issue a default letter after a payment plan is broken. The point I was making in that post was if he had received a new default notice (in order to re-ignite the account that had dropped of his record) then he should have it removed from the CRA records.

Agreed. But 6 years is a bloooody long time

I would agree. But I have taken it for granted you have already complained to Trading Standards and FOS on the grounds of Harassment.

Lets take each point seperately: Statute barred. If the debt was not subject to a CCJ then they cannot pursue you for it. But it will take a few letters for them to get the message. Keep sending them. The letters will continue due to the process. Let it run it's course but ensure you have notified the DCA that you dispute the debt. Default Notice. It is correct that the DCA can only issue a 'default notice' if you have, funny enough, defaulted on the repayments. What would have happen was back in the 1990s when you stopped paying a default notice was put on your credit file because you stopped payments. Because you didn't agree a new payment plan the original notice remained on file then was deleted after 6 years. A DCA can issue a new default notice if you have agreed a revised or new payment plan and defaulted on that. But in your case that is not the case so they shouldn't have issued a default notice. If they have write to the CRAs to have it removed.

I understand your position. Put the DCAs to one side for the moment (unless the debt has been sold on by the original creditor). I agree with your strategy and forcing the original creditor to 'put up or shut up'. But to be honest, I think you will be caught in the DCA merry go round, with no one making the decision to go to court.

Yes and No If you are confident they do not have a valid CCA then call their bluff, demand they take you to court. If they DON'T have a valid CCA they will not 'enforce' the debt through the courts. So that will eradicate that option (regardless of the DCA threats). But that DOES NOT mean the debt will not be pursued by DCAs in the future. In fact, it is most likely it WILL be pursued by DCAs because it's their only option. There is a misconception that if a valid CCA cannot be produced the creditor will call off the DCA and write-off the debt, although this has happened, it is becoming a rarity. The most likely outcome is the DCA are told to pursue, and it is up to the DCA supervisors or managers whether they do or do not pursue to be honest.

In short Yes. But only if none of the debts have a CCJ. Stay put at 60% is my advice.

I think you mean they will reduce you debt by 25p in the £ or 25%? If this is correct, I think you can do better. If they have a valid CCA then a reduction for an immediate Full & Final would be close to 40% off or 40p in the £ If they DON'T have a valid CCA then a reduction for an immediate Full & Final would be close to 60-65% off or 60-65p in the £. HINT: Why not send a letter offering 40p in £ on a first come first paid basis. Give them a detailed breakdown of who/how much owed to each creditor and the lump sum you have to offer. Give then say, 21 days to respond. It may flush a couple out the woodwork. A risky strategy is to also add in the letter that you are likely to file for Bankruptcy soon. Consider you position before adding that though. I actually had this happen to me in 2005, when a guy sent just a letter on a £17k debt. I couldn't run down the corridor fast enough to get Legal Services to write a letter of acceptance, in fact 3 managers, me and the Director of collections debated in the corridor the merits of sending a taxi to pick up the chq....

The simple answer is yes....if the DCA determines the debt is not enforceable the file is often past back to the client, and the client sends it to a different DCA. Thus the cycle starts again. Some DCA legal staff will actively pursue the CCA from the client on the debtors behalf and if no CCA is forthcoming a wink to the supervisor sends the file back to the client.

Thanks for the post. You have highlighted the major drawback of the 'CCA approach' and the honest answer is 'very little'. The creditor you owe money too will pproceed with the 'enforcement process' until such a time when they decide NOT to take the CCJ route. In these cases (mostly) the debt will be sold to a DCA and the balance not-recovered written-off in their accounts. That don't help you though, does it . Because a DCA is still chasing you for the debt. In these cases the DCA (which has bought you debt for between 15-25p in the £) knows they cannot enforce the debt through a CCJ (in fact you want them to issue a CCJ so you can be rid of it!!), unfortunately, it's unlikely to happen. Their tactic here is to hound you until you pay, and if you don't they will sell it on again. And the process starts again with a new DCA. You could call their bluff and 'insist' they take you to court, but they won't. The cycle you refer to could go on forever to be honest.

I don't understand the question, sorry! Do you mean: 'what's it mean when the debtor is not allowed to call the DCA, but the DCA is still calling the debtor on the automated system? or am I just thick! Let me start by clarifying a point: A CCA request is not ‘Prove to me the debt is owed by providing a CCA’ But it is ‘Prove to me the debt is enforceable because a valid CCA can be provided’ There is a BIG difference between the two: the first is not valid because by the very fact you are requesting a CCA indicates the debt is owed (or more precisely ‘the debt has been incurred’). What you are trying to ascertain is whether the creditor can actually take you to the CCJ stage and obtain judgement. If they can provide a valid CCA then they are more likely to obtain a judgement, whereas not to provide a valid CCA may rule out that stage of the ‘enforcement’ process. OK, more about the ‘process’: Within DCAs there are three main levels of staff 1) Account Managers/debt collectors (they call you up) 2) Managers/Supervisors (they sort out disputes and complaints) 3) Technical Experts/Legal Services (Legislation) When you send in a CCA request (always recorded delivery) the Admin Asst will stamp to confirm receipt from the Postman. The letter is opened and checked for payment – your £1 chq/PO is processed by the finance Asst and your file updated (at this point £1 is removed from your debt!!). The letter is put in the account manager’s in-tray. The account manager will up-date your screen with ‘CCA requested’ and the letter is passed to a supervisor. The supervisor puts your account on hold (48 hours) and updates the finance section to remove the £1 from your debt and pay it to the client (Cahoot for example). The 48 hour hold is so the client can receive the CCA request. The supervisor will read the request and note the DATE RECEIVED on the debtors screen. The letter is faxed to the client and the original then posted. The client will notify the DCA to ‘confirm hold on account’ and the DCA will then put a 14 day hold on the account. If no acknowledgement is received from the client after 48 hours the system will send the supervisor a reminder ‘request for action’. The supervisor will chase the client and the 14 day hold is actioned on the system. HINT: If you find they are still calling and sending letters confirm they have received your recorded delivery CCA request, and the send them a letter requesting the account be held until the CCA is provided. A Good DCAs with a good supervisor will comply, but it might be to your benefit if they continue to pursue (see below). They find the paperwork… The client will notify the DCA that the debt should be pursued and send the paperwork they have to the DCAs legal section. This is then forwarded to the debtor by the legal services team. Alternatively The client can send you the paperwork they have directly and notify the DCA to ‘pursue the debt’. In this case the DCA receive no paperwork. If this is before the 14 day ‘hold’ deadline then action begins after 14 days, but if it is afterwards it starts the following day. A supervisor will update the system and put on the file ‘request complete’. The account manager/supervisor will not have seen a copy of the CCA or paperwork issued by the client/legal team. The only information they have is that your request was ‘complete’. If the CCA is valid. The DCA will reactivate the account and pursue. You and the DCA staff are in the same boat. If you think the CCA is NOT valid Then clearly you are going to write a letter and tell the DCA why you don’t think it is valid. The letter is processed and either sent to the client or legal team. Don’t bother calling them (see below). NOTE; at this stage the client and/or legal team WILL KNOW if it is valid or not, but as stated in previous post, DCA staff will only give you information that you have already provided. And policy is that only ‘operational’ staff can update your files (account managers/supervisors), and remember, they haven’t seen the paperwork!! Your file will NOT be updated with information pertaining to the validity of the CCA by the legal team for this very reason (because if you do a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)/data protection request that information would be sent to you (proving your grounds for dispute)). If you do call them it may appear the left arm doesn’t know what the right arm is doing, but think about it, they certainly DO know what their doing. When you call up and argue that ‘the CCA is not valid…’ the staff are ignorant to whether it’s valid or not. On their screen it tells them to ‘pursue’, and so they return to the script ‘you must pay this NOW Mr X’. Staff ignorance…. DCA staff only know as much as is on their screen, and to be honest, very few bother to read up on the technicalities of CCAs or Default Notices, etc. Why, because that’s what legal services are paid to do. Also, the staff have to process a target number of debtor accounts each day and getting bogged down in legislation does not help them hit their target. HINT: So the next time you want to call the DCA about an invalid CCA, just don’t bother. It’s a waste of money. Send them a letter instead. Supervisors Most supervisors have a good knowledge of the law, and will (hopefully) act upon the information their provided with. HINT: If they were to receive a letter that says ‘this CCA is not valid because…detail the dispute’ and ENCLOSE THE PAPERWORK you received from the client or legal team, they will have a look and may even have a chat with someone in legal services. If they know it’s not enforceable they can…..ummmm…. speed the process up shall we say. I mean their not going to get paid are they, and your one less account in the system. What will they do? Send the account back to the client with the recommendation to pursue through litigation (debtor refuses to pay). They pass the ball back to the client. Will the creditor write-off my debt then? In honesty, I don’t know. More than likely they will pass it to another DCA and the process starts again. If it does, send a letter and ENCLOSE THE PAPERWORK you received again. They still don’t listen, and calls keep coming. They will do, won’t they? The DCA is on a cycle remember, 120-180 days. When they have run the cycle it will be passed back to the client anyway. It is then up to the client to decide on the next course of action. NOTE: this 180 day cycle often restarts if you respond to a letter or call. HINT: If you are 100% confident they do not have a valid CCA, and have exhausted all attempts to get one, and you want to take this to judgement stage. Then ensure your dispute is known to both the DCA and client through the sending of a legal letter to both parties (there are templates on here) and then let the cycle run its course. I hope this helps.

Thank you to all those that have sent PMs. I appreciate the comments. If you asked a specific question I will answer here on this thread - I mean, if you need to know the answer I'm sure someone else does too! Please understand (as Andrew1 has said on the other thread - Thanks Andy) I will explain how the 'cogs turn' at a DCA, and why DCAs do the things they do, I am happy to answer specific question in a unbiased independent way. What I will not do however, is undertake in a debate on the moral issues surrounding DCAs, and I'm sorry but I just won't explain why 'those little runts keep hounding me'. If your angry and upset because a DCA is not 'acting reasonable' then tell me what you are hoping to get from them and I'll tell you how its possible, or why it is not. After lunch (I need to earn a crust too you know ) I will answer the question most have asked : 'why do DCA staff know so little about 'the law' and CCAs'

I'm happy to answer specific questions but can you do it on the new thread so I am not seen as hijacking this thread. see 'Inside a DCA' (sorry don't know how to do a link - maybe a Mod will help me out there )

I know I am going to get slaughtered for this but hay ho. I worked for a DCA as a staff member and later as a supervisor between 1992-1997 (FCA UK Ltd now called NCM Collections Ltd). I'll apologise for calling us 'debtors'. Training: I was allocated to a client account (Halifax). It was my responsibility to collect as much money for the Halifax as possible. If my memory is correct I had in excess of 4000 accounts on file. When I started I received two days 'on the job' training. This revolved around three pimary objectives. 1) get them to pay....something. 2) obtain as much information from the debtor and document it on the system. 3) Assess the likelyhood that objective 1 can be achieved through the use of objective 2. I was provided a script that should be followed verbatim. In bold letters was the sentence 'NEVER TRUST A DEBTOR'. There was a number of responses to key 'excuses' put forward by the debtor, i.e - - 'I cannot afford to pay this' = response, 'you will need to resolve this Mrs X or you will have to appear in court.' (fear tactic) - 'go on then, take me to court' = response 'Mrs Y, if a CCJ is issued the court can instruct the bailiffs to seize your goods.' Throughout my 2 day training I was never told about legislation, or the requirements under the CCA, etc. Such information was irrelevant. The only exception to this was regarding CCJs. If a debtor stated they already had a CCJ we were required to check the credit file of the individual at his last two addresses. If a CCJ was registered we were to send the account to a supervisor for determination. If a debtor gave information that was 'out of the norm' (legislation, etc.) we were required to pass the account to a supervisor. When you are a DCA staff member you are required to collect as much money as possible. On the wall of the office was an tv screen that detailed the recovered amount per 'client' (Halifax) for the proceeding day. It was the first thing that the staff checked when they arrived at 8am. Payment/letter Processing When you send a letter or cheque they are opened and the chq/cash/debit card instruction are processed by a Finance asst. They would update the finance section of the debtor records. Any letters were passed to the 'account manager' (staff member but it sounded more senior), Hence when you say, I want to speak to a manager the script reply is 'I am the person that manages your account, it is me you need to discuss this with'. I was told to keep the pressure on the debtor and only pass the account to a supervisor if the debtor got abusive or quoted legislation. Anyway, as the system is calling debtors I would go through each letter in the in-tray and update the system notes. It really depended on the content of the letter that determined action. Mostly it was the normal 'I cannot pay' or 'I need more time'. If my headset bleeped I would take a call. If I got a letter I did not understand, from a solicitor, or quoting legislation I was required to pass it to a supervisor. If you want me to go on I will, but if this is boring anyone then tell me to shut up. I'll check in tomorrow to update if required. Other areas I know about: Collection Procedure/timescales CCA requests S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request Recommend Write-offs/unrecoverable Debts over 2 years old. Debts in dispute. recommend CCJ. Supervisor responsibility. Thanks, OK, I'll do the procedure/timescales then off for the night. Telephone calls. Staff members work on an automated calling system where each account is rotated and called. If you answer it is picked up by a member of staff that gets a bleep in the headphones. Each member of staff would only talk to a debtor for his client (Halifax). If YOU call them, and the Halifax account managers is on a call it is diverted to a supervisor (your details are requested). Staff cannot see who the computer is calling! if a call gets 'a hit' the screen they are in closes and your account details come up, the conversation is then recorded and a clock appears on screen, staff have a time limit to talk to you (they won't chat all day!!) and this can be btween 2-15mins, at the 15min point the computer notifies a supervisor that a 'long call' is in progress and will automatically tune his headset into the conversation (if the supervisor is not on a call themselves), if they are on a call a message is flashed on their screen. The whole point of the telephone call is to get you to pay. The staff member will start with 'you need to pay the balance in full today' and slowly give ground until a 'compromise' is reached. HINT: stick to your guns, offer what you can afford. Don't get angry (easy to say I know) but they are working from a script and enjoy it when they wind you up. NOTE: the staff member is their to get information out of YOU, they won't give you any information except what YOU have already told them in previous calls!! When the call ends the recorded conversation is shunted to an archive file and can only be replayed by a supervisor. The member of staff has 2 minutes to update the screen before the computer starts the call cycle again. If there is no answer to your 'phone the computed will reallocated a new slot later in the day. This could be in 2, 4 or 6 hours depending on the number of debtors from that client. DCAs can only make a max of 25 calls a week (6 days from 7), so this can be about 3 unanswered calls a day. Once they have spoken to you the system needs to be given an 'action' when the screen is completed by the staff member. This action will depend on what the staff member feels is appropriate (see 'actions' at the bottom for more info). Letters: You are correct in you assumption that 90% of the letters sent out by a DCA are pre-written or template letters. The system can generate a letter every 5 days if no phone call is answered and it will move up a scale of seriousness from say, 'call us' to 'pre-Litergation', etc. The member of staff can also request a letter based upon the conversation you had with them by pressing the F1-12 keys. Each letter sent out is just a template and when the DCA has run out of letters with NO response at all, it is passed back to the client for legal action to commence. NOTE: some DCAs have a legal section that can issue CCJs via an associated solicitor, but the client must approve such action. When an account is passed back to the client for a decision there is usually a 14 day 'quiet' period, where you hear nothing at all from the DCA. After this you may get it passed to another DCA (and the process starts again) or sent for legal action. If you have asked a question outside the norm and a template letters does not answer the query, this will be sent to a supervisor for determination. DCA staff do not have the function to respond to your letter in person. And sometimes this can be VERY frustrating for the member of staff/supervisor. One of the biggest problems with DCAs is this lack of 'human' consideration. The staff member may actually agree with what your saying but may not have the option (within the 'action' list) to satisfy your request. She has to move you from a position they cannot (note I didn't say will not) agree to because the system won't let them, to a position the system will allow. In the 10% of cases where a 'personal' letter is sent out, this is always where you have made a formal written complaint regarding a recorded conversation that either breach the rules or where you were abused by the account manager/staff member (same thing). NOTE: You may complained about a staff member swearing at you but if during the conversation up to that point you swore at him/her, you complaint would be ignored. The principle of 'get what you give' is very much in operation at DCAs. HINT: If you do receive abuse, then take a step back and think 'did I start this?' if you are 100% confident you didn't, COMPLAIN in writing, stating the date and time of the call and what was said. I have released staff because they lost their temper (it's unprofessional and should NOT be tolerated). You have a right to be treated with respect, but so do the staff you are talking to! Timescales: This is a basic rule: a DCA should not be acting unless a DEFAULT NOTICE was issued. If you have not received a defualt notice inform the DCA immediately. They will have a procedure where the account is put on hold for 48 hours and the client must send out a copy of the DEFAULT NOTICE. When the account is passed to a DCA the client must put the date the default notice was issued. the DCA then have 120 or 180 days to recover or start to recover the debt. If after 120 or 180 days there is no progress or contact with the debtor, the account is normally passed back to the client for legal action or a home visit, etc. It is the clients decision on what would happen after that. So the Defualt notice is a key document (not just for CCA reasons) because it is the start date for recovery action. I have seen a number of cases where a default date was entered on the debtors file by a client but no default notice was ever issued (if there is a dispute between the debtor and client over the issue of a Default notice then normally a supervisor would check the debtors credit file to see if the notice is recorded - this would normally be a min of 31 days after the default notice is issued and the debtor account would be put on hold by the DCA). The supervisor can refuse to process the debtor account until a valid default notice is issued and I did do this during my time (particularly with Lombard Tricity Finance). NOTE: the default notice can be issued by the DCA and with some you could get a 'pre-default notice' letter sent to you. This can form part of the DCA procedure but is often only done by 'in-house' DCAs (but not exclusively). Assuming you make NO contact with the DCA (either phone or letter) then the system will normally generate a letter every 5-7 days for 'aggressive' DCAs and each letter gets more 'serious' as they escalate (these DCAs are working to the 120 day aged debtor cycle). With some medium aggressive DCAs this could be every 14-21 days. And the maximum 'cycle' is every 28 days (these DCAs are working to the 180 day aged debtor cycle). Defualt Notice issued = 90 days after last payment Legal action determined (after NO contact) 180 days after default issued. Please understand that this is just a general rule. It will be decided by the client based upon YOUR actions. If you are trying to resolve the debt by making an offer they are less likely to go for a CCJ. However, if the information you provide the DCA staff member could give the client an advantage (say for example, you have a mortgage with positive equity) then they may speed up a CCJ in order to issue a charging order, etc. Actions: This, funny enough, is the most important stage of the process. At the end of the conversation or letter, the staff member must decide 'follow up action' they only have 12 letter options with a 13th as 'pass to supervisor'. Most action generate another threatening letter. But a few do not, they are: 1) Agree payment plan of £ 2) Refused to pay, (can but won't) - pursue. 3) Recommend Legal (CCJ) - because of 'reason' (i.e positive equity) 4) Recommend write-off - because of 'reason' (i.e Bankrupt confirmed) 5) Recommend Hold - because of 'reason' (i.e S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request/CCA request) 6) Recommend visit - because of 'reason' (i.e no contact in 120 days) 7) Pass back to client (hold) - because of 'reason' (i.e Account in Dispute) Pass back to client (end) - because of 'reason' (i.e Doctors note/death) 9) Pass to technical team - because of 'reason' (i.e Legislation quote) 10) Uneconomical to pursue - 'reason' (2+ CCJs on file) I hope this helps.

I thought I would start a new thread so there is no 'hijacking' of another thread. I have copied what I have wrote on that thread below. I am happy to answer questions but will not respond to abuse. If your having difficulty with a DCA don't take it out on me. I worked as a staff member (called Account Managers or Debt Collectors in the industry) and as a Supervisor from 1992 - 2005. During that time I worked for three DCAs and I am now a treasury manager for a FTSE 100 company.

I hope it's useful. I'll do some more tomorrow when I get in, but I must go to bed as I'm up at 5.30........aaaaaah

Thanks, OK, I'll do the procedure/timescales then off for the night. Telephone calls. Staff members work on an automated calling system where each account is rotated and called. If you answer it is picked up by a member of staff that gets a bleep in the headphones. Each member of staff would only talk to a debtor for his client (Halifax). If YOU call them, and the Halifax account managers is on a call it is diverted to a supervisor (your details are requested). Staff cannot see who the computer is calling! if a call gets 'a hit' the screen they are in closes and your account details come up, the conversation is then recorded and a clock appears on screen, staff have a time limit to talk to you (they won't chat all day!!) and this can be btween 2-15mins, at the 15min point the computer notifies a supervisor that a 'long call' is in progress and will automatically tune his headset into the conversation (if the supervisor is not on a call themselves), if they are on a call a message is flashed on their screen. The whole point of the telephone call is to get you to pay. The staff member will start with 'you need to pay the balance in full today' and slowly give ground until a 'compromise' is reached. HINT: stick to your guns, offer what you can afford. Don't get angry (easy to say I know) but they are working from a script and enjoy it when they wind you up. NOTE: the staff member is their to get information out of YOU, they won't give you any information except what YOU have already told them in previous calls!! When the call ends the recorded conversation is shunted to an archive file and can only be replayed by a supervisor. The member of staff has 2 minutes to update the screen before the computer starts the call cycle again. If there is no answer to your 'phone the computed will reallocated a new slot later in the day. This could be in 2, 4 or 6 hours depending on the number of debtors from that client. DCAs can only make a max of 25 calls a week (6 days from 7), so this can be about 3 unanswered calls a day. Once they have spoken to you the system needs to be given an 'action' when the screen is completed by the staff member. This action will depend on what the staff member feels is appropriate (see 'actions' at the bottom for more info). Letters: You are correct in you assumption that 90% of the letters sent out by a DCA are pre-written or template letters. The system can generate a letter every 5 days if no phone call is answered and it will move up a scale of seriousness from say, 'call us' to 'pre-Litergation', etc. The member of staff can also request a letter based upon the conversation you had with them by pressing the F1-12 keys. Each letter sent out is just a template and when the DCA has run out of letters with NO response at all, it is passed back to the client for legal action to commence. NOTE: some DCAs have a legal section that can issue CCJs via an associated solicitor, but the client must approve such action. When an account is passed back to the client for a decision there is usually a 14 day 'quiet' period, where you hear nothing at all from the DCA. After this you may get it passed to another DCA (and the process starts again) or sent for legal action. If you have asked a question outside the norm and a template letters does not answer the query, this will be sent to a supervisor for determination. DCA staff do not have the function to respond to your letter in person. And sometimes this can be VERY frustrating for the member of staff/supervisor. One of the biggest problems with DCAs is this lack of 'human' consideration. The staff member may actually agree with what your saying but may not have the option (within the 'action' list) to satisfy your request. She has to move you from a position they cannot (note I didn't say will not) agree to because the system won't let them, to a position the system will allow. In the 10% of cases where a 'personal' letter is sent out, this is always where you have made a formal written complaint regarding a recorded conversation that either breach the rules or where you were abused by the account manager/staff member (same thing). NOTE: You may complained about a staff member swearing at you but if during the conversation up to that point you swore at him/her, you complaint would be ignored. The principle of 'get what you give' is very much in operation at DCAs. HINT: If you do receive abuse, then take a step back and think 'did I start this?' if you are 100% confident you didn't, COMPLAIN in writing, stating the date and time of the call and what was said. I have released staff because they lost their temper (it's unprofessional and should NOT be tolerated). You have a right to be treated with respect, but so do the staff you are talking to! Timescales: This is a basic rule: a DCA should not be acting unless a DEFAULT NOTICE was issued. If you have not received a defualt notice inform the DCA immediately. They will have a procedure where the account is put on hold for 48 hours and the client must send out a copy of the DEFAULT NOTICE. When the account is passed to a DCA the client must put the date the default notice was issued. the DCA then have 120 or 180 days to recover or start to recover the debt. If after 120 or 180 days there is no progress or contact with the debtor, the account is normally passed back to the client for legal action or a home visit, etc. It is the clients decision on what would happen after that. So the Defualt notice is a key document (not just for CCA reasons) because it is the start date for recovery action. I have seen a number of cases where a default date was entered on the debtors file by a client but no default notice was ever issued (if there is a dispute between the debtor and client over the issue of a Default notice then normally a supervisor would check the debtors credit file to see if the notice is recorded - this would normally be a min of 31 days after the default notice is issued and the debtor account would be put on hold by the DCA). The supervisor can refuse to process the debtor account until a valid default notice is issued and I did do this during my time (particularly with Lombard Tricity Finance). NOTE: the default notice can be issued by the DCA and with some you could get a 'pre-default notice' letter sent to you. This can form part of the DCA procedure but is often only done by 'in-house' DCAs (but not exclusively). Assuming you make NO contact with the DCA (either phone or letter) then the system will normally generate a letter every 5-7 days for 'aggressive' DCAs and each letter gets more 'serious' as they escalate (these DCAs are working to the 120 day aged debtor cycle). With some medium aggressive DCAs this could be every 14-21 days. And the maximum 'cycle' is every 28 days (these DCAs are working to the 180 day aged debtor cycle). Defualt Notice issued = 90 days after last payment Legal action determined (after NO contact) 180 days after default issued. Please understand that this is just a general rule. It will be decided by the client based upon YOUR actions. If you are trying to resolve the debt by making an offer they are less likely to go for a CCJ. However, if the information you provide the DCA staff member could give the client an advantage (say for example, you have a mortgage with positive equity) then they may speed up a CCJ in order to issue a charging order, etc. Actions: This, funny enough, is the most important stage of the process. At the end of the conversation or letter, the staff member must decide 'follow up action' they only have 12 letter options with a 13th as 'pass to supervisor'. Most action generate another threatening letter. But a few do not, they are: 1) Agree payment plan of £ 2) Refused to pay, (can but won't) - pursue. 3) Recommend Legal (CCJ) - because of 'reason' (i.e positive equity) 4) Recommend write-off - because of 'reason' (i.e Bankrupt confirmed) 5) Recommend Hold - because of 'reason' (i.e S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request/CCA request) 6) Recommend visit - because of 'reason' (i.e no contact in 120 days) 7) Pass back to client (hold) - because of 'reason' (i.e Account in Dispute) 8) Pass back to client (end) - because of 'reason' (i.e Doctors note/death) 9) Pass to technical team - because of 'reason' (i.e Legislation quote) 10) Uneconomical to pursue - 'reason' (2+ CCJs on file) I hope this helps.

I know I am going to get slaughtered for this but hay ho. I worked for a DCA as a staff member and later as a supervisor between 1992-1997 (FCA UK Ltd now called NCM Collections Ltd). I'll apologise for calling us 'debtors'. Training: I was allocated to a client account (Halifax). It was my responsibility to collect as much money for the Halifax as possible. If my memory is correct I had in excess of 4000 accounts on file. When I started I received two days 'on the job' training. This revolved around three pimary objectives. 1) get them to pay....something. 2) obtain as much information from the debtor and document it on the system. 3) Assess the likelyhood that objective 1 can be achieved through the use of objective 2. I was provided a script that should be followed verbatim. In bold letters was the sentence 'NEVER TRUST A DEBTOR'. There was a number of responses to key 'excuses' put forward by the debtor, i.e - - 'I cannot afford to pay this' = response, 'you will need to resolve this Mrs X or you will have to appear in court.' (fear tactic) - 'go on then, take me to court' = response 'Mrs Y, if a CCJ is issued the court can instruct the bailiffs to seize your goods.' Throughout my 2 day training I was never told about legislation, or the requirements under the CCA, etc. Such information was irrelevant. The only exception to this was regarding CCJs. If a debtor stated they already had a CCJ we were required to check the credit file of the individual at his last two addresses. If a CCJ was registered we were to send the account to a supervisor for determination. If a debtor gave information that was 'out of the norm' (legislation, etc.) we were required to pass the account to a supervisor. When you are a DCA staff member you are required to collect as much money as possible. On the wall of the office was an tv screen that detailed the recovered amount per 'client' (Halifax) for the proceeding day. It was the first thing that the staff checked when they arrived at 8am. Payment/letter Processing When you send a letter or cheque they are opened and the chq/cash/debit card instruction are processed by a Finance asst. They would update the finance section of the debtor records. Any letters were passed to the 'account manager' (staff member but it sounded more senior), Hence when you say, I want to speak to a manager the script reply is 'I am the person that manages your account, it is me you need to discuss this with'. I was told to keep the pressure on the debtor and only pass the account to a supervisor if the debtor got abusive or quoted legislation. Anyway, as the system is calling debtors I would go through each letter in the in-tray and update the system notes. It really depended on the content of the letter that determined action. Mostly it was the normal 'I cannot pay' or 'I need more time'. If my headset bleeped I would take a call. If I got a letter I did not understand, from a solicitor, or quoting legislation I was required to pass it to a supervisor. If you want me to go on I will, but if this is boring anyone then tell me to shut up. I'll check in tomorrow to update if required. Other areas I know about: Collection Procedure/timescales CCA requests S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request Recommend Write-offs/unrecoverable Debts over 2 years old. Debts in dispute. recommend CCJ. Supervisor responsibility.

I think most should know this, but thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Taken from the Halifax website: What will happen to customer complaints about unarranged overdraft bank charges? Banks and building societies will not be dealing with or resolving customer complaints on unarranged overdraft bank charges while the test case is running. If you do complain about your unarranged overdraft bank charges, we will write to tell you that we have received your complaint and that we will record it on your file. When a final decision is reached in the test case, we will contact you as soon as possible to tell you how we will resolve your complaint. We will apply the decision in the court case to all complaints we receive. Why are the banks allowed to stop dealing with unarranged overdraft bank charge complaints during the test case? The banks applied to the Financial Services Authority (FSA) for a suspension of the normal timetable for banks to deal with unarranged overdraft bank charge complaints. The FSA decided that, in the circumstances it was appropriate to grant a suspension of the banks obligations under their complaint handling rules while the banks sought legal certainty on this issue (which is now affecting more than 100,000 UK customers). The conditions of the suspension are designed to protect customers' rights and ensure that customers won't be materially adversely impacted by the suspension. The FSA's suspension direction can be found on the FSA's website: www.fsa.gov.uk . Can I make a court claim for a refund during the test case? Yes, but we will apply to the court to put your case on hold while the test case is running. This is because the issues being raised in customer complaints on unarranged overdraft bank charges are being considered in the test case. Can I complain to the Financial Ombudsman Service about my unarranged overdraft bank charges? Yes, you can make a complaint but it will not be reviewed while the test case is running. The Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS) has decided not to review complaints while the test case is running. If you do complain to FOS, they will respond to you confirming their position directly. How long will the "test case" take? At this time it is too soon to give any timescales for a conclusion to the "test case" but we expect it to go for more than a year. We have agreed with the OFT and the FSA to conduct the test case in an efficient, prompt and orderly way. We will continue to post updates on our website to keep customers informed of progress on the test case. Will I be compensated for this delay? Should the test case resolve that the bank is due to pay money to you, any amounts paid to you will include an element of interest to compensate you for the delay in any payment due to you.:grin: Why hasn't a case been taken to court before now? We have been working closely with the OFT as part of its enquiry. Within this we have discussed the option of taking a "test case" to court and a decision has now been made by the parties to take this forward. Why wasn't a "test case" on credit card charges taken to court? The OFT made a ruling based on its interpretation and understanding of the law. This has not been tested in the courts and remains open to legal challenge. Is the OFT suing you? This action has been mutually agreed by the banks and the OFT in order to provide legal certainty over the issue of unarranged overdraft bank charges. Will I still incur charges while the test case is on-going? Yes, your account is still subject to the usual terms and conditions whilst the case is on-going. :mad: Will my bank account be frozen while the test case is ongoing? No, your account can be operated as normal and is still subject to the usual terms and conditions whilst the case is on-going. For the full article by the Halifax see the link: Halifax - Bank Accounts - Bank Charges Q&As

Any help????? Pretty Please

Hi all, As you can see I'm new here, so please help I went over my authorised overdraft limit by £26.24 and noticed in January that £5 per day was added to the account. Out of principle I refused to return the account back into balance. I wrote to the bank to complain about the charges and got the normal 'we acknoweldge your complaint but due to the court case....we will get back to your when hell freezes'. Since then they have been adding £150 per month onto the account and the original £1026.24 has turned into £1606+ and is likely to keep increasing. I am worried the A&L will argue that £5 per day is a 'reasonable and fair' charge compared to £25 (which is what the court case seems to be looking at). My 'wait for the court to decide' attitude may actually prove a stupid move and I could be left with a MASSIVE debt. What do i do? I cannot afford to pay off £600 to stop the charges increasing, and when I submitted my complaint the charges I detailed only amounted to £125. Can someone PLEASE answer these ? 1) Will the bank (if they lose) refund all the 'unathorised overdraft charges' or only the amount I stated in my original letter? 2) Do I need to write and request they stop adding this charge? Will they comply? 3) Should I take out a loan to payoff the £600 in order to stop the charges. 4) Should I continue to pursue them through the court as the step by step guide says, or should I just wait and expect the bank to act when the court case is determined. This court case is likely to go on for months and my debt is increasing at an alarming rate by the day. :confused: Any help is most appreciated.

Just came off the phone from Mercers after informing them they have not responded to my CCA request and it is now 14 working days (first breach) and they only have 28 days before a complaint is issued by me. Funny thing is she got really snooty and said 'an agent will call to collect the full balance within 48 hours' to which I responded with joy and glee, 'oh thank you so much, no one ever visits me any more. It will be great to see and talk to another human being, and all before my fortnighly visit to the job centre on Friday, which I add, I very much enjoy and look forward too also.' To my utter surprise she hung up..... and she had such a nice voice.

Excellent thread. I'll watch with interest