There is provision to allow the judgement to be set aside under 13.3 depending on when judgement was granted, but it is my experience that the courts are unlikely to set aside a debt on the grounds of no valid CCA with the prescribed terms put forward retrospectively. The hearing by the district judge is likely to ask the pertinent question 'why did you admit to the debt during the orginal judgement and agree a monthly repayment, on that debt you now dispute on the grounds on validity?', I would doubt the judge would set it aside on the response 'I didn't know the law then'. In my experience with the courts, 'ignorance is not defence'. But it is certainly worth a go.

100 posts.....yeaaaa...I feel better than David Beckham :grin:

If you enter an agreement to pay monthly via a ccj a charging order can only be granted if you default on that agreement at the request of the creditor. If the court orders you to pay the ccj in a lump sum (not monthly payments) and you cannot do that, the creditor can request a 'legal charge' on your home. Regarding the cca. If the CCJ was issued 'in adsence' you can go back to court and request a redetermination. But if you completed the 'admissions form' and returned this to the court you have admitted the debt and you cannot then 'defend' or dispute the debt retrospectively.

It was said with a slight sarcastic taint... ALL jobs are dictated by how were feeling on the day, and judges are no different

When it comes to CCJs the onus has always been on the debtor defending rather than the creditor proving. All undefended CCJ don't even pass under the eyes of a district judge, they are determined by a court clerk. And this can, and has caused a problem where the debtor didn't even know the CCJ was issued (issued 'in absence'). And in fact, when you return the 'admission form' it goes back to the OC or their agent and not the court. It's only if the CCJ is defended that both side have to then 'prove' their position.

Ok, it makes sense now. It really comes down to what you really want. Yes we all want to get as much out of them as possible, but is it realistic. It is also about the amount of the write off! I mean if you claim was 4k and your outstanding debt 2k you should press on, but if you debt was, say, 9k+, then they will argue to the FoS that their action was 'fair and reasonable'.

Maybe you should 'offer' the solution that they write the debt off on your CRA file, or demand 'your day in court'.

It will be based on the evidence presented, not which side of the bed the judge got out of. Thankfully.

Sadly, I have read far to many death certificates due to unnatural causes regarding debt to last me a lifetime. Debt can be depressing, but not enough to take you own life. If you reading this, have no one to turn to, no one to talk to, and feel there's only one way out. Then PM me, there is ALWAYS a solution to even the worse financial situations.

This can be a mojor problem where the debt is sold on, and that is becoming more common as the OC realise there is little they can do if there is no valid CCA. The DCA want to get their pound of flesh and the debtor is in a constant merry go round of DCAs.

You haven't sccrewed up at all. Idealy, it would have been better to say nothing and just turn up in court with your list of items missing. But hay, we don't live in an ideal world. OK, you have sent 'the other side' a list of missing items, it's still unlikely they will produce them all or even half of them...is it. You could even argue that you tried up to the date of the hearing that you gave them the chance to provide the information. To be honest, the decision will come down to your argement to prevent the charging order because they have failed to provide ALL of the information. My advice is to sit in a quiet place and think through what you going to SAY, and then use the list to support that. PM me if need be.

Yes stapely, that could be argued, BUT, it won't stop them pursuing a CCJ.

‘The role of the supervisor’ Lets just start by setting out the hierarchy of a DCA: Debt Collector/Account Manager The person you talk to when you call. Team Leader/Legal Advisor A more experienced debt collector that is responsible for a section of the floor or legal queries. They also provide the initial ‘on the job’ training. However, they are just glorified debt collectors and they can often be ‘the supervisor’ when you demand to talk to one. Supervisor See below Manager Is responsible for the management of the accounts returned to the OC. To ensure compliance with the DCAs policy and procedures. They will also get involved in complex disputes or complaints. You will rarely talk to them unless you have formally complained and had that complaint accepted (racial abuse for example). Senior Manager/Director Responsible for all operational matters throughout the office. You will never speak to them, no matter what the issue. The Supervisor In some DCAs the supervisor can also be the ‘manager’ but normally the responsibilities are segregated. The supervisor’s role is: Firstly to ensure the accounts are turned over at an acceptable rate. DCAs work on the rule of percentages. If they have 5000 live accounts for a client (MBNA for example) they will want the team to turnover 20% per day (so all the accounts will be turned over in 5 days), which equates to 1000 accounts per day. With 10 debt collectors that equates to 100 accounts per day. The database, as we have already seen, is automated to just keep calling throughout the day until there is a response. So you can end up with 3-5 calls a day. The supervisor will be made aware via a system pop-up if the daily target is not going to be matched. It is her responsibility to speed up the calls through a number of methods, including removing debtor accounts on the list to be called where there has been no previous response (these can be allocated to a ‘night call’, which is after 6pm). The supervisor can also select all accounts with employer telephone numbers and delegate them to a team leader to call. Or they can select all accounts where the debtor has failed to pay the monthly instalment and pass them to a team leader. There are others but I think you get the picture. Secondly, to ensure the weekly recovery rate per client (OC) is achieved. This is the total revenue recovered from debtors for each defaulted account. This is purely a monetary value and will be linked to debt collection agreements made with the OC upon account set-up. With some OCs there is a set limit of repayments required. For example the OC will have an agreed contract with the DCA to only accept repayments that are equal or more than 1-3% of the total debt outstanding. Thirdly, to resolve complaints both informal and formal, and this can be either in writing or on the telephone. Normally, if you had a complaint it will be heard by a team leader. If the team leader cannot resolve the complaint, or prove either way whom is correct, they will request supervisor intervention. The supervisor can listen to any call recorded within the last 7 days instantly via the archive, or the last 28 days via request to the archive administrator (normally takes 48 hours). The supervisor has the authority to issue a formal apology, and can dismiss on the grounds of gross misconduct without further reference to management. Normally the account will be returned to the OC with an explanation as to the DCAs inability to pursue. Fourthly, they are responsible for the ‘final determination’ on an account. The aged debtor cycle as previously stated will just keep plodding forward if you don’t respond, but even if you do, there will come a day when the account will automatically be passed for ‘final determination’, or the account manager/team leader can request an F12 (as it is known) to the supervisor. It is the supervisor’s main responsibility to determine the future direction of the account. I posted some outcomes very early on but here is a more definitive list. 1) Agree payment plan of £? 2) Restart payment plan of £? 3) Refused payment plan of £? (constant default) 4) Refused payment plan of £? (below de-minimus) 5) Refused to pay, (can but won't) – recommended CCJ. 6) Recommend Legal (CCJ) - because of 'reason' (i.e. positive equity) 7) Recommend write-off - because of 'reason' (i.e. Bankrupt confirmed) 8 ) Recommend return to client - because of 'reason' (i.e. in dispute - CCA) 9) Recommend return to client – complaint (OC or DCA – accepted/rejected) 10) Recommend visit - because of 'reason' (i.e. no contact in 120 days) 11) Recommend visit – because of ‘validation’ 12) Pass back to client - because of 'reason' (i.e. legal enforcement not possible) 13) Pass back to client (end) - because of 'reason' (i.e. Doctors note/death) 14) Pass to technical team - because of 'reason' (i.e. Legislation quote) 15) Pass to legal/solicitors – because of ‘reason (confirm house sale) 16) Uneconomical to pursue - 'reason' (2+ CCJs on file) 17) Pass to…. (other DCA or local agent) reason (debtor pays 18 ) Recommend accept F&F offer (£ and %) 19) F&F accepted (£ and %) 20) F&F accepted (over 80%) 21) F&F accepted (client offer 35% reduction) 22) Return to client - Debtor not in default/not issued 23) Return to client – Debtor confirmed settlement in full 24) Return to client – Debtor confirmed subject to CCJ dated? 25) Return to client – other (detail) The debt will be determined and returned to the client. The file will be suspended and moved to an archive and if you call they will request you contact the OC as ‘we are no longer dealing with the account. The OC can then choose to take the action as requested, or pass to a different DCA and the process starts all over again. Sad I know, but look on the bright side. It is job creation after all. Why should I care? You don’t have too, to be honest, but the supervisor will review everything you have told them and make a judgement, not based on your ability to pay monthly, that stage has passed (with them), but on the best and most likely outcome for the OC. The supervisor will take into account ALL information from all sources, and will ensure that the DCA has fulfilled it’s responsibilities to the OC. Up until this point, it is fair to say, you have not been treated ‘fairly’, but when the supervisor makes the ‘final determination’, he will base his recommendation on what would be ‘reasonable’ and ‘realistic’. HINT: If you do have an interaction with a supervisor then be polite, helpful (but not to helpful ) and be concise but precise about what you are trying to achieve. For example, if you want the debt written off because of no CCA, say so. Explain why that would be ‘reasonable’ and ‘realistic’. NOTE: supervisors are trying to achieve a different outcome than the debt collector/account manager. You will be talking to someone that knows what their talking about and is trying to find the best solution. If that means a CCJ or even bankruptcy, or likewise, if it is a write-off or token payments, then that will be the final determination. I should end this with a real fact. The chances of you actually talking to a supervisor will be VERY unlikely, unless they call you. It is rare to ask to speak to a supervisor and they allow you to. It’s not personal, it’s just the policy of the DCA. Supervisors are important people in the DCA process so if you do get a chance to talk to one, use it wisely.;-) I hope this helps.

That should keep you going for a bit. Off to have a cup of tea, and the I'll post up the next chapter. :grin:

But why would the OC claim that the debtor had made a large payment during the missing month? Surely stapely is putting forward the 'hyperthetical' arguement that he could claim they have failed to provide one months statement because he (the debtor) had made a large payment which they wanted to hide. But if my interpretation is wrong I'm happy to look at this again.

You should win, and when you do a compensation claim is appropriate.

Can you give us some more info. Previous claims, won/lost Debts etc.

It's good to talk.

They don't need all the statements to take you to court but they do need a valid CCA with the prescribed terms. Just keep pointing that out to them each time they write.

You are defending the charging order on the grounds that they have failed to provide adequate evidence as required. So as said above it's to late to send the letter detailing what they have missed. Just present it in court and ensure they know you dispute the debt. I know your a bit 'on edge' at the moment, but you should be OK. I hope this helps.

Hi ginnever, Just keep that information to hand when you go to court, you don't need to provide to the 'other side'. You have requested information and they have given you what they had. When you go to court present what they have failed to provide and they will be given time to provide it to you. At this stage just play your cards close to your chest and go for the jugular.

The final decision is made by OC legal staff, or legal representative, based on the information provided by the DCA. Any court action will be determined on the likely 'risk' factor of them winning. If they fail to gain a judgement then very little happens to 'determining officer', you win some you lose some. Unless of course, they lost because he failed to realise the defendents reason was justified. Blindly pursuing a debtor when your walking through a minefield is suicide. But thankfully they do it everyday

Only if you was to admit the debt is covered under a regulated agreement!!! I don't think that would be wise though, but open to suggestions.

It is most likely to be sold on at a reduced rate and each DCA will try their luck. You should have a template letter ready stating what has happended to the debt previously and what they need to provide for you to further communicate.