Thanks mate. the only problem is that a couple of new charges need to be added and the interest amended slightly compared to the one I sent Capone, does this matter ifI do it online?

Thanks And just out of interest. From experience, is there a "better" method between moneyclaim and handing them in by hand at the court? Or is it much the same? Thank you again

Thanks guys for all your help. I will get all my info tonight and have a go at completing the form tomorrow. Is it not possible to just send off the forms? or is it only, by hand or MCOL? I hope its ok to ask a couple more questions if I get stuck? Cheers

Right, so i'm guessing this is the correct form to send off? http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/n1_0102.pdf And am I right in thinking I have to send one off to court and one to the defendent? For the brief description do I just literally write claiming back penalty charges? In the POC part, there seemes to be only a smallish space, does it matter if I elongate this to include what the 1st poster suggested I could put in? Thanks.

Was that with moneyclaim? Thanks a lot for all your help.

Thanks mate. May I ask if you used the POC as per above? And did you use an official form to write it on? Congratulations though. Glad you got your money back

Thanks a lot. sorry but I am a bit confused. Is this what you posted the same as the N1 form? All I have at current is this old one from another forum. DO I not need to include any of that and just that from the one above? And if there an offical court form I need to write this on? Or do I just send it on an MS word doc with the cheque? Thanks "Fill in the Form as follows Claimant: Your name. Your address Defendant (s): You bank’s name. Head Office Address Brief details of claim: The claimant wishes to claim back money taken from his/her account in relation to penalty charges Value: Leave this blank Defendant Name and address: Your bank’s name. Head Office Address Amount Claimed: Total amount you are claiming. Court Fee: Leave blank Solicitors costs: Leave blank Tick “NO” for Human rights question. [/size][/font] Particulars of Claim On or around the (date you opened account) the claimant opened an account (account number (insert number) sort code (insert number) with the Defendants, the claimant believes this was on the defendant’s standard term and conditions. (If you were never shown these say so) There was no negotiation on these terms it was either a take it or leave it policy. In fact the claimant had no option but to agree to the terms, as he would have met the same reply at any other Bank. The Claimant has requested a copy of his/her contract and a copy of the defendants terms and conditions on two occasion but the defendant has not supplied either (Delete this paragraph if they have supplied them) After reading about these types of charges in the Media, the Claimant decided to send the defendant a Data Protection Request letter dated (insert date) (attachment A) asking the defendant to supply him with a copy of his bank statements dating from (date) to (date). After going through these statements the Claimant discovered that the Defendant had applied charges to his current account since the (date of first charge you are claiming) to (date of last charge) totalling £xxxx (insert amount) .A itemised breakdown of these charges are entered as attachments (B1 - 2 etc) (your spreadsheets) On the (date you sent LBA) the Claimant sent the Defendants a letter (recorded delivery) informing them that he believed the charges were a penalty charge (attachment C1 to 2 etc) the Claimant then asked the defendant to confirm/prove that the said charges were a true reflection of the defendants administrate cost, or refund the said charges. Regrettably the defendants refused to do either. In addition the claimant also requested that the defendants highlight which clauses in the defendants Terms and Conditions they were relying to make these charges moreover to point out each term that the said charges had been applied against. Again the Defendants refused. Because the defendant has continually refused to prove that they have any legal right or contractual right to apply the said charges furthermore they have refused to offer any evidence that the said charges are a true estimate of the administrative cost involved. The claimant has been left with no option but to issue a claim. It’s the claimant’s contention that the defendants charges are a disproportionate penalty and therefore are unenforceable, the claimant relies on the following Common law Principles (Penalty charges are irrecoverable at common law). The precedent for this was: Dunlop Pneumatic v New Garage [1915] AC 79. Lord Dunedin set out some tests that are considered even in modern cases when the court is asked to rule on penalty charges. They are; 1) If it is "extravagant and unconscionable" i.e. that the cost incurred by the business because of the breach is lower than what the consumer is being expected to pay because of the breach. 2) It is also a penalty where the consumer is to pay a larger sum due to failure to pay a smaller sum. It was held that a contractual party can only recover damages for an actual loss or liquidated losses. Murray v. Leisure play [2005] EWCA Civ 963 “English contract law recognises that, if the parties agree that a party in breach of contract shall pay an unjustifiable amount in the event of a breach of contract, their agreement is to that extent unenforceable” CMC Group Plc And Others V Zhang [2006] EWCA Civ 408. “'Whether a provision is to be treated as a penalty as a matter of construction to be resolved by asking whether at the time that the contract was entered into the predominant contractual function of the provision was to deter a party from breaking the contract or to compensate the innocent party for breach. That the contractual function is deterrent rather than compensatory can be deduced by comparing the amount that would be payable on breach with the loss that might be sustained if breach occurred.” Furthermore or in the alternative penalty charges are also contrary to: The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulation 1999 No 2083 SCHEDULE 2 Indicative and Non-Exhaustive List of terms which may be regarded as unfair (e) Requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a dis-proportionately high sum in compensation Further or in the alternative if the defendants state that there was no breach of contract and that the charges are for a service, then it is the Claimants belief that the defendants have attempted to restructure accounts in order to present events of default spuriously as additional services. However The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, are concerned with the intention and effects of terms, not just their mechanism. For example, a charge for 'agreeing to' or 'allowing' a customer to exceed his credit limit is no different from a charge for the customer's 'default' in exceeding his credit limit. The claimant claims from the defendant a sum equivalent to the total amount unlawfully debited from the claimant’s account being (insert total charges). The claimant further claims interest pursuant to s69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum, being the sum of £xxxx(insert amount) and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of (enter the daily rate of interest). The claimant further claims the court fee of £xxxx (insert amount).” The claimant respectfully requests that the court makes an order for standard disclosure, when issuing this claim, as the defendants have continually refused to supply any requested information. (add this if you using this as an attachment) Statement of Truth *(I believe)(The Claimant believes) that the facts stated in these particulars of claim are true. *I am duly authorised by the claimant to sign this statement Full name: ________________________________________________ Name of claimant’s solicitor’s firm: _____________________________ Signed: __________________________________________________ *(Claimant)(Litigation friend)(Claimant’s solicitor) Position or office held: _______________________________________ (If signing on behalf of firm or company) *Delete as appropriate "

Hi there. I have sent 2 LBA letters to capital one asking for full refund of charges and interest. I have recieved the same response twice- that since the FOS investigation-they have lowered their charges to £12 and therefore they are ok. They will refund any monies over the £12 limit. It is my understanding that this is not correct and that the £12 was just a guideline. And, according to legislation-the amount charged should reflect costs occured, which would most likely be a lot less than £12 although the court would have to decide that. So hopefully I am right on that, and hopefully I am correct in my next course of action, which is to send in a court application to the small claims court in hope that they can sort it out. I'm looking at the POC and I have to say that if possible I would like some help with it please. I don't know exactly how best to word it? Is there a guide or template here for a standard penalty charge claim that I can use? Or if anyone has successfully used one I would be greatful for your help Thanks

Right yesterday i recieved a letter saying they would look into it etc and will take 8 weeks. Today recieved another letter "After carrying out a review on your complaint regarding PPI, I can find no evidence to support your claim that the policy has been mis-sold. However as a gesture of goodwill, I would like to offer a full refund of all premiums charged + interest at 8%. the total amount is £222.15" etc etc Hmmm so they are returning the money for nothing!!! Well I can't complain, surprised it was so quick too! Thanks for your help. Barclay sent today.

Thanks Car for all your help. And I understand your point. I will do some more research in the meantime and get back when something happens. Thanks for all your time.

Couldn't it also be possible, to say something like, I did not agree to pay charges onto the account and the amount levied was unreasonable and I wish that to be offset against the amount owed to the creditor. If its them taking the action the burden of proof would be on them to produce evidence that this is not true and without an enforacble agreement, without a contract without the t&cs of the overdraft as was agreed in their words "by verbal agreement", how can they prove otherwise? This is also true, I do not remember ever signing or agreeing to anything which said I should pay £150 for going over the agreement in one month period

Wow, thanks that was very interesting and there is a lot to digest and read more on. Just one more question before I begin further research. And this is related to the order of proceedings. Is it possible to argue in the first instance whether or not the debt is enforcable. And then dependent on the ruling, argue that. I.E I argue whether its enforcable or not, the judge says it is, can I then argue that I do not owe the whole amount because of xyz (points previously mentioned), or would that be a new case or some sort of appeal against the ruling?

I see thank you. Can I just clarify one thing though? When a debt is uneforcable, I thought that means that it does exist but it cannot be enforced by a court of law. therefore admitting that you owe them money would be inconsequential? If the argument is that an unenforcable debt means that it doesn't exist at all, then I would have thought this could be easily proved by statements etc??

Sorry one other thing also, what did you mean about part admission with regards to the above?

thanks again. just one point on what you said. And that is, that to date, they refuse to give me a copy of the t&cs as of when the account was opened. Only current ones. so the point you made earlier that they can close the account as they like because its in their t&cs, does that still stand up if they can't produce the t&cs as of when the account was opened?

Thanks mate. Well it looks increasingly likely that they will in the end take me to courtas I will not pay them until these issues are ironed out, and like you say it is unlikely that they will be ironed out without the courts. I also forgot to mention (I think) that they added charges and interest whilst the account was in clear dispute so this is another thing to add to the list. I think I understand and have researched the unenforcable debt angle. But I wanted to have all things understood if possible. The thing I don't understand and would like some pointers with, is what are the implications to the debt if the account-not overdraft, was closed without any notification? Is it just a slap on the wrist for them or are there more serious consequences for them (unenforcable debt aside) Also, Is it possible if it does go to court, that you can have many arguments or points of compliant with regards to the case? I.E the starting point is obviously whether it was enforcable or not, but then I have all my other points too as to why I don't think the debt is enforcable or why it should at least be reduced, either by the mechanisms agreed on this "contract" sliding scale method, reduction for charges applied & reduction for charges and interest applied whilst in dispute+ any penalties for not closing the account properly?

Bump-just wondering if somebody could read the letter please and try and relay the points back to my case if possible?

Ok this is the final letter. Be great if could give it the once over to make sure it is ok before I send it off " 29th September 2010 Dear Sirs, Account number: I am writing in relation to the Payment Protection Insurance policy (PPI) applied to the above account which I believe was mis-sold to me. This PPI was added to the Credit card. During the sales process, you made no attempt to explain if this policy was entirely suitable for my own circumstances, let alone define if it was actually required at all. I am now fully aware that this PPI policy is without doubt surplus to my requirements. There is indeed no existing agreement for this policy either. I have recently become aware of the mis-selling of PPI policies and I have knowledge of the recent investigations into PPI by the Citizens Advice Bureau, Competition Commission, Financial Services Authority and the Office of Fair Trading. I believe you have not treated me fairly for the following reasons: • The PPI was added without my knowledge. • The PPI policy exclusions were never properly explained, so I was unable to make an informed decision as to whether this insurance was required or not • I was never made aware of any exclusions which related to pre-existing or on-going medical problems at the time of purchasing the PPI. • I was not asked whether I already had any existing (insurance / employer cover/benefits) that would cover the repayments. • There was never any agreed contract for the policy Unless you can prove without doubt that this policy is fair, reasonable and suitable for my needs, I demand to be placed back into the position I would have been had this PPI policy not been included. In line with the FOS recommendations it is requested that the overall situation be restored as if PPI had never been included. I will therefore demand a full refund of all of my paid PPI premiums plus 8% interest from 02/01/2006 to 29/09/10 which amounts to £220.87 (see attached schedule). I look forward to your full and prompt response to this letter. However, if this matter is not settled favourably to myself within eight weeks of this letter I shall be contacting the Financial Ombudsman Service to investigate my complaint and I give you fair warning that I will not hesitate in taking the matter to the Courts if so required.

thanks for your help. I will; post up the letter that I will send to egg today. Then I will try and make a start on the barclays one.

Thanks for the reply. The egg payments averaged around £4/month, so I added all these up and used the 8% interest calculator. what I got with the SARS, was the CC agreement which was signed all statements, but nothing at allregarding a PPI. the only thing I can link to a PPI is a telephone log, which says "CPR agreed", but I don't know if this is meant to be the PPI although this was from around the date the ppi was applied. Barclays-the info they sent again nothing about PPI and the statements they sent were a list of charges oppossed to actual statements. So I will have to scan through the statements I have and ask for the others. Bit annoying as i've already paid them £10 already any further advice would be appreciated

Any advice or comments guys on the letter recieved??

Thanks a lot. I have done a total + interest and it adds up to £208 which is nearly the total I owe them. So it is ok to stick to those reasons, even though it may well have been the case that they put it on without me knowing? they haven't got a contract for it either. I also just found out that I have been paying PPI on my barclay card, 1 yearly payment. And the cheeky thing with this one is when I did a SARS request, they didn't include charges for PPI, just "penalty charges" for my credit card, so that was quite hard to notice. I phoned them up and the guy said I have been paying it since my account's inception and it was about £25/year x5 years.

Hi there. I started a claim which is still in process with EGG over credit card charges. when I recieved my statements from SARS request I noticed that I have been paying PPI monthly payments since 2 months after the account was opened in 2005. (if i'd been more observant I would have noticed this earlier I know!) I didn't even know what PPI was let alone need it. So I looked it up on the internet and found out what it was. I then phoned up EGG and cancelled the policy. since then I have recieved a letter from EGG saying that I may have been misold an EGG PPI policy. I have also read that people have claimed this back. Now I have got a template letter for this and I'm not sure what reasons to putas to why I am claiming it back. the possible reasons on the template letter are. "( List the reasons that actually apply to you and delete the others that do not apply to you ). • The PPI was added without my knowledge. • I believed that the PPI was compulsory. • I was never informed that this PPI is only optional. • The PPI policy exclusions were never properly explained, so I was unable to make an informed decision as to whether this insurance was required or not. • I was never informed that if PPI was required I could purchase it elsewhere. • I was informed that I would have a better chance of getting the account if PPI was included. • I was led to believe that my application would have been rejected had I not included the PPI. • It was never explained that there are exclusions within the PPI policy clauses that could seriously affect any claim I made. • This PPI was unsuitable for myself because I was, and continue to be, in receipt of benefits for (name of benefit). • I was never made aware of any exclusions which related to pre-existing or on-going medical problems at the time of purchasing the PPI. • I was not asked whether I already had any existing (insurance / employer cover/benefits) that would cover the repayments. • It was never explained that there are restrictions for the (unemployed / self-employed / retired / certain age groups) of which I fall into." the reason whyI don't know the reason is because I don't have a clue how it was sold to me. Nothing was sent in the SARS request regarding PPI, except for on one of the phone logs it says "CPR agreed"-I'm not sure if CPR is the PPI but it seems to align itself with the dates that it was set up. It certainly wasn't set up at the time of opening the account because payments started later. So i'm not sure if this is something they did automatically on my account or they tricked me into getting this on the phone. I don't remember any phonecall about it but then again it was quite a few years ago. any advice on what reasons I should put would be greatly appreciated. thanks

Thanks mate.I have sent this off now. However I did when I got home on friday recieve a letter from HSBC in response to my previous letter. My previous letter basically asked them to to provide the orginal contract, T&Cs and facilities letter, provide documentation that they had closed the overdraft and the account properly and why the account was not reduced on a reducing scale as agreed upon sale. the letter I got didn't address all these problems, and it seems from their letter that no contract exists and that no proceedure was really followed in regards to closing the actual account. However I don't know the proper proceedures that should be followed with regards to closing the account, but i'm sure its not how they have done it. Would appreciate any comments from people about the letter and any implications it has. Some of the things it states are not even true I should point out before I post it. 1.The overdraft facility was not withdrawn after the dec 18th letter. It was withdrawn in June. (and even then I'm not sure they followed correct proceedures with that! 2. It was not passed to Metropolitan first in Jan-it first went to a different DCA, It was passed to metropolitan much later (not sure why they switched dcas) 3. T&cs at point of sale were never supplied at any time (not during SARS requests or now) ones provided with the letter are current ones(so not availible at anytime as stated by them) 4. They did not give me any time to recitfy the account. they gave me 28 days from June, it was only when I put the account in dispute that theybacked off. even though they still added charges and interest for a few months whilst it was in dispute (something I forgot to mention in the letter) 5.the systems letter was the only one I ever recieved which even mentions the possibilty of closing my account, and even then when you read it, it seems to imply that it is the overdraft that will be taken away not the account-pretty sure an account shouldn't be closed using these methods. And secondly I apologise for typing errors my keyboard is not working properly, so please bare with me. " "I am sorry that you remain dissastified with the banks earlier response. Our letter of the 4th September 2010 fully addressed the issues you raised. However, in view of your comments I have reviewed the circumstances further and thereis little I can positivelyadd to what has alareadybenn addressed. Our position has not changed since our previoouis letter and the outsatanding amount owed will remain with Metropolitan collections servoces. In your recent letter you request a copy of the contract, if this is in regards to the repayment contract, no such written contract was made, this however was a verbal contract between the bank and yourself to repay the amount outstanding. If you are referring to a contract regarding the terms and conditions of the opening of your account, again by opening of the account you accepted the terms and conditions of the account and these were availiable to you for your records anytime, I have enclosed a a copy of the general terms and conditons for your records (note these are current that they sent) We were unable to agree to the repayment plan you offered and advised you that the repayment plan you offered was not sufficient and we required a suitable amount of repayment to agree a formal repayment plan.As this was not achieved our normal collection proceedures continued. On 18th December we issued you with a demand letter advising you to recify your overdrawn balance within28days or further action will be taken.I have enclosed a system copy of this letter for your records. As your account was not rectified, the overdraft facility was removed, your account was closed and the outstanding amount passed to Metroploitan servioces on 16th Jan 2009 as per our proceedures and what we advised you in the letters. As previously stated the bank reserves the right toclose your account andorwithdraw any facility you hold at anytime if the terms and conditions of your account are broken. therefore we had f ollowedour correct proceedureand gave you sufficient time to recify your account before any furtheraction was taken. as addressed in previous correspondence to you, no refund of correctly applied charges will be given to you and your account will remain to be repaid with Met DCA. Advise contact FOS any further questions contact senior service quality manager. The system letter they refer to "~We have recently advised you of our concerns regarding the position on your account and have asked you to take action to rectify the situation or to contact us to discuss what can be done.I would urge you to take either course of action immediately as a failure to respond to this letter may have serious consequences. the withdrawal of your banking facilities this would mean that any overdraft facility would be cancelled and you would have to return credit debit cards and cheque book. the enforcement of any security given either by your or third party the passing of your details to a CRA this may adversely affect your ability to gain credit we are giving you a further 28 days from the date of this letter in which to contact us and agree repayment terms satisfactory to us. We nevertheless reserve the right to make demand if we think it necessary."

Ok got to send this off today. I've decided to send a CPR letter to both DG and HSBC. Is this correct anyone know? cheers