Kinger

 

There's an order in place, the terms are fairly clear in that the roofer must comply with a,b,c before he receives payment.

 

Regardless of the build quality or rectifying the water ingress he doesn't seem too keen on releasing the insurance backed guarantee prior to payment. He agreed those terms at the earlier hearing, he must adhere to them......... i don't know what he hopes to achieve by bringing this to the courts attention but if you're not happy with it you need to let him know and ensure the court is aware of the issue.

Hi Mike. Would this be better to send to the roofer?

"

Dear roofer,

I have received your correspondence via post and I would like to know why you are applying back to the court. I have complied with the order by allowing you access to my property. The order states you must rectify the leak, which you have not. The order also states you must provide an insurance backed guarantee, however you have still not provided this. Why have you still not provided me with the insurance backed guarantee? The inspector has not passed the roof as the leaking has not stopped.

What evidence is there to suggest the cause of the leaks is due to my main property? All I can see in the photographs you have enclosed is a puddle on a flat roof; something which is to be expected on a flat roof. You state I have failed to accept the leak is due to my main property, but what evidence have you provided to back up the claim that my main property is responsible for the leak? You are requesting the building inspector to attend; on what grounds? He has already stated to me that the workmanship of the roof is beyond his remit, therefore he is not qualified to provide a report on state of the roof.

Kind regards

I think I'd be asking it why it is asking the court for relief to breach the order.

Thank you very much Mike. Once again your advice Is much appreciated.

I am also thinking of sending this to the roofer. Is this worthwhile?

Dear Roofer,

I have received your correspondence via post and I would like to suggest a remedy to the situation. As you are alleging that the cause of the leaking roof is due to defects on my main roof, may I suggest we jointly instruct an expert witness to produce a report.

Building control have informed me evaluating the workmanship of the roof is beyond their remit; they therefore are not qualified to conduct a thorough investigation or produce a report. I feel it would only be fair to contribute equally to the expert witness, and I am more than happy to pay for the full cost of the witness if I am found to be at fault. Likewise I expect "Roofing co" to do so if you are found to be the guilty party.

Kind regards

I'd be prepared to also make formal application. Dj's can be arrogant ar**s at times

I was under the impression that was a formal application. What else do I have to do?

It's entirely up to you how you approach this Kinger, either write to the court in the form of a witness statement expressing your concerns that it is demanding payment ahead of its compliance with the order or file a formal application for relief to instruct and act on the evidence of a single joint expert.

Thanks Mike. I have applied to the court and written the following

Dear Judge xxxx,

I am writing to inform you that the Claimant has not adhered to the judgement you passed. The building inspector has informed me since your judgement that inspecting and ensuring the roof is correctly and competently installed is beyond the remit of building control. He has suggested obtaining a statutory inspection to evaluate the condition of the roof.

After the Claimant’s workers attended my property on 12/05/2014 the roof is still leaking and the claimant is stating that the leak is due to defects on my main house roof. I robustly deny that this is the case. I cannot see any other way to resolve this except by instructing a single joint expert witness to examine my property and provide a report for the court. I have conducted research and found xxxx from “xxxxxx Building Surveyors to be suitably qualified. He is the only Surveyor xxxxxx registered as an Expert Witness for xxxxxxx. I have attached his CV for your consideration. I request you vary the order to allow the instruction of a single joint expert.

If you grant permission for an expert witness, and the report shows that the roof is not fit for purpose, may I request you reconsider my counterclaim. I am attaching email correspondence between myself and the building inspector and the Claimant.

Yours sincerely,

An update:

A document has been received from the roofer which shows their application to the judge to request another hearing. In the document is states

1. I am deliberately avoiding payment by refusing to accept that the leak is due to my own property and not their work. They have enclosed photographs of my flat roof with a small puddle on which allegedly proves this.

2.They are requesting the presence of the building inspector in the court hearing.

3.They have applied for an insurance backed warranty but have not received the documentation.

4.According to them the building inspector has informed them that new bubuilding regulations no longer require any signing off.

5. The document includes numerous photographs of my velux windows with the exposed flashing after the surrounding tiles have been removed. These black and white photos are supposed to show that the wood is "bone dry" and that there has never been any leaks. These photos actually show severe damage to the flashing in my view and the view of F16

Ignore it and do what you intend to do.... It needs to comply with the order prior to settlement, its not entirely clear to me what it hopes to achieve by referring anything to the court prior to its compliance.

 

If it is daft enough to force the issue there's little option for you but to cross apply in the instruction of a sje.... Self defeating really.

Thanks a lot mike Mike. Would we split the cost 50/50? And would the judge contact them directly or would one of us have to instruct the sje? Also who would find the sje?

Mike,

what is your take on the email i received from the roofer post 503? and the questions raised in 504?

I'm not sure what the best course of action is

thanks.

I received the following from the roofer.

Good Afternoon Mr xxxx

The roof provided by (roofer) is complete and the investigation by removing tiles proved there is no leakage from our workmanship. The insurance has been requested and I am waiting to hear back from them with the premium charges. I will again contact Building Control on Monday to see if they intend to inspect again. In the meantime I intend to fax all details of communication to the District Judge’s Office at County Court Monday 19th May 2014 to request a new hearing where I will also request the presence of (building inspector) and I intend to present to the DJ photographic evidence of the completed roof, the dry wood which was revealed once the tiles were stripped back and also your main roof which is in need of urgent repair to eradicate the current leak you are currently experiencing down into the side of your new extension.

I have no further wish to discourse with you the concern you have raised with regards to a leak to once again avoid payment. I will now leave it to the DJ to sum up his findings as to what has taken place since his Order and will be asking for Judgement forthwith.

Hot dry weekend. ....

I hope it rains soon because time is running out

 

I have had cases where in "light rain" the roof did not leak.

But in heavy rain the water flowed over the gutter due to blockage etc.

and it was then that the lower roof started leaking.

Good news From what I can see. I've filled the bath numerous times and emptied it. I've removed the bath panels and sprayed water around the edges and no leaks. I've filled the basin and checked overflows and I have flushed the toilet and no leaks. As the weather has been so nice, Later in the afternoon I sprayed the hose on the roof and after a while the roof started leaking. So I think this clarifies the cause of the leak.

Kinger

Another question (if I may) because I have no wish to give incorrect advice.

 

In heavy rain.

Is the guttering on the main roof coping with the volume of water?

Or is it over flowing the gutters ????

I suspect you may not have noticed, but worth checking.

The above could also cause "water ingress" into the cavity.

I have never noticed that either as I am never outside when it is raining. ill have a look the next time im outside.

Kinger

I think Mike is giving some very good advice here and you do need to think about the costs of going back to Court.

Maybe consider a w/p with the roofer.

 

There is another point.

I've spent sometime going back over the thread and the photos, plans etc.

 

The main bathroom is on the rear elevation of the building in the middle of the rear extension.

Obviously the "plumbing" must have been altered.

Are you sure the "leak" is not from the plumbing in the bathroom ?

 

It may be a leak on the waste pipework (eg When you pull the plug on the bath).

Thus it is not "apparent" all the time.

This could be why the roofer found the roof to be "bone dry".

Thanks for the input f16. I didnt even think that was possible. Ill definitely have to make sure if that is the cause of the leak I dont make a fool of myself by going back to court. An expert witness is going to cost lots too. I think I need to carefully consider my options like Mike said

The case still exists, it's not concluded until both parties perform per the order. If Kinger is adamant that he is not satisfied he will need to ask the court [by application] to vary the order, granting relief to the parties to instruct a single joint expert and act on those findings. The difficulty is that the roofer will fight tooth and nail to derail any such application.

Thanks Mike. in the mean time shall I send off that email I posted before?

I am thinking about sending off the following:

Dear Roofer,

With regards to your email dated 14th May 2014, I regret to inform you I am unable to make full payment at this stage. My reasons are as follows.

1. My roof is still leaking. None of the issues raised in court have been addressed or rectified.
   
2. The building inspector has not inspected nor issued a certificate.
   
3. An insurance backed guarantee has not been produced
   

The Judge’s ruling was the following:

It is ordered that:

“1. The claimant shall at his expense inspect the velux windows and rectify any aspect of the installation likely to result in water ingress. The claimant is not however required to alter the pitch of the roof. Further, and also at the Claimant's expense the Claimant shall arrange an inspection by the local authority inspector.

2. In the event the building inspector approves the work:

a) The claimant shall promptly and at his expense arrange an insurance backed guarantee in relation to all of the work carried out on site.

b) The defendant shall within 14 days of the guarantee pay the outstanding invoice sum

c) In the event the building inspector does not approve the work the parties shall promptly notify Judge xxxxx”

Point 2(B) of the ruling states that payment is to be made within 14 days after the production of a insurance backed guarantee. You have yet to produce this. I do not agree that the cause of the leak is due to defects on my house. If this was true then why did (roofer) not mention this when the quantity surveyor attended before work was carried out? Why was this not mentioned in court? What qualifications does Mr (roofer who attended on Monday 12th May) have to make these claims and how could a visual inspection be sufficient?

I await your response,

The costs of a hearing, it's small claims track but that does not provide either party with a guarantee of protection from a costs order.

 

If you don't want to give up and understand the risks then by all means apply to vary the order

Surely when you know you're in the right you cant just roll over due to the potential for costs? I may as well have paid up in the beginning and let him win. Excuse my ignorance but a cost order could only award expert witness costs? what other costs would there be apart from the court fees?

I really can't see many options open to Kinger, if he really wants to challenge it it would need to be with the courts approval to vary the order and appoint an expert........not without the risk of bearing the full costs of a hearing if countered by the other side.

What full costs would it be? Its complete lies what they are saying. There is nothing wrong with the roof on my house. Im not going to give up now when I know these allegations are false. Surely I should take this as far as I can go?

I received the following from the roofer.

Good Afternoon Mr xxx

I have spoken with (roofer who attended) who informs me the roofing works are now complete. Once the tiles were removed and there was exposure to the areas, no leakage was found during the investigation and that the areas were in his words ‘bone dry’. I therefore conclude our business and shall today apply for the Insurance Cover and request that payment in full is now made within 14 days to allow me to produce your 10 year warranty as agreed. (roofer who attended) has left a message with (inspector) to attend at his nearest convenience to inspect the final works.

In the meantime I should advise you that upon inspection and searching for your reported leakage (roofer who attended) informs me that there is a major problem with your side and main roof to the property. Looking from the back of the property to the right side (the 2 storey flat roof), it is suspected there is an internal leakage within the cavity and that your main roof is also in need of repairs.

I am aware that we have in the past supplied you with quotations for the repairs required and would urge you therefore to seek a roofing company to rectify the problems that currently exist which is in no way connected to the roof that (roofing company) has supplied and this will cure your leaking problems.

Perhaps add a further line that if he is unable to offer a suitable remedy you will apply for relief to instruct a single joint expert.

Thanks Mike, Ill send it off now.

The roof has leaked again. I was thinking of sending the following:

"after the attendance of your worker and subsequent heavy rainfall the roof is leaking again. This situation is becoming extremely difficult for my family as I am unable to continue the work in my extension until this issue is rectified. I have not heard from you since 12/05/2014 when your worker attended, despite him stating he would be in touch. I will be left with no option but to contact the court unless I hear from you promptly. I have attached pictures of windows leaking again

Yours sincerely

http://tinypic.com/r/20a88xy/8

http://tinypic.com/r/hrest5/8

http://tinypic.com/r/2nrlnrd/8

http://tinypic.com/r/2nrlnrd/8

Thanks caro, so I may have been in a better position if I had just paid by credit card and disputed it from the beginning, and allowed the credit card company to investigate rather than an ill informed judge make a decision on what he has limited knowledge of. A shame I did not know then what I know now

Correct me if I'm wrong. (I don't do legal. ... So if I come across as a "Bone head" sorry !!! )

 

At the moment the roof is still leaking.

So the roofer has not "complied" with the Court order on 3 counts.

1. The roof is not repaired.

2. Building control can not sign the roof off until it stops leaking. (is repaired)

3. Insurance certificate can not be issued due to the above 2 points.

 

Lets "assume" that the roof was repaired and all 3 above were complied with.

 

Would S75 cover Kinger on the fact that materials are not fitted to manufactures spec ???

I cant understand how the court order affects the credit card. Whether I paid in the beginning ot paid after a judge instructed surely is irrelevant? Im thinking this as section 75 covers you due to poor workmanship/faulty goods. The instruction to pay by a court would surely be separate and how would things be any different had I just paid up in the beginning to then have problems with the roof after?

I understood the question but you were asking whether you could use s.75 as a shield and I don't believe it is possible, the other side would have to be in breach of agreement...... in this instance in breach of a court order or judgment

my mistake. So the court order would supersede the initial contract with the roofer, even if the roof was still leaking after full payment was made?

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I mean if it goes back to court and I have to end up paying the roofer despite the pitch not being rectified and building control issuing a certificate

I think I'd have to email and ask what its intentions are first. Instructing SJE, would have to be on application to carry any weight. You could write to the court per the order but that would leave the matter open for the DJ to dispose of by whatever remedy s/he sees fit.

Hi Mike, Would I be able to claim on section 75 if I paid via credit card if the judge rules in favour of the roofer? I have done some research and I can't find anything to state that I wouldn't be covered.

Kinger

 

Not entirely sure how the roofer has reached this conclusion or how that would sit with the order. Has it communicated its thoughts to you in writing?

 

I suppose your next logical step [assuming you are dissatisfied with its explanation] is to apply to vary the order to allow instruction of a SJE. Whether that would be granted is another matter entirely

There has still been no contact made from the roofer. Do I sent them an email asking them why they have not contacted me or shall I just wait? The roofer did not explicitly state that the leak was due to my existing house, but he had mentioned in the past due to the fact that my separate flat roof is due for replacement.

If I were to go down the route of contacting the court, would I mention the expert witness, or just inform the court that the other party has not complied with the order?

I have also contacted Velux today, as the middle electrical window is groaning and creaking badly. It had been a bit jerky when opening and closing initially. They have agreed to send someone out to inspect with regards to the warranty on the window. I am hoping that any report or response they subsequently provide may help if the issue with the window is down to workmanship rather than a warrantable issue.