***************************************************************************************** Midland Bank/HSBC Personal Banking Terms and Conditions leaflets ***************************************************************************************** **************************************************************************************************** MISSING - FULL T&Cs FOR ALL TIMES BEFORE 2003. **************************************************************************************************** If you have any, please scan them and post images on this thread, or email images/pdf to [email protected]. Make sure you include the printer's info which is usually on the back cover in small print. There is no print info for the 1996 version. If you have these T&Cs, please check the back and inside-front covers, scan the relevant page - or the whole document -and post it here or send to [email protected]. **************************************************************************************************** THE MOST USEFUL BITS **************************************************************************************************** Some suggestions for the 1996-1997 version are in post #49: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/95312-hsbc-t-cs-here.html#post883209 It applies broadly to all of the subsequent versions until the major rewrite in Dec 2006. **************************************************************************************************** UPDATE: ALL T&Cs ARE NOW AVAILABLE AS PDF FILES - a lot easier to use than picture files **************************************************************************************************** The PDFs can be reached via the links on the right hand side of the list below. Most of the PDFs have selectable text, but copied and pasted text is garbled in some cases. To view and print PDF files you need Adobe Acrobat Reader, which if you don't already have it, can be downloaded here: Adobe - Adobe Reader Download - All versions. Make sure you clear the tickboxes asking if you want to download adobe photo album, google toolbar, etc - unless you do want these, which is unlikely. If you find Acrobat Reader runs very slowly or gives you any other problems and you are using Windows, an alternative is Foxit pdf reader. This link downloads the installer: Download Foxit Reader 2.0 I won't be posting any more images from now on, only pdfs. Info on saving or printing the existing images, and some other stuff, is in post #50: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/95312-hsbc-t-cs-here.html#post883383 All images are also available here: stax68 - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting **************************************************************************************************** WHAT THE DATES IN COLUMN 1 MEAN **************************************************************************************************** 1996 T&C: The month is not known. The year is based on hearsay, though there's no reason to think it unreliable. The format and Midland Bank brand provide good reason to think that they're no later than 96 in any case. All partial T&Cs (extracts): the date is based on info supplied by the legal dept. of a certain High Street Banking Company. These should be taken as the date when the T&Cs took effect for existing customers. All changes to T&Cs, and 2006-12-01 T&C: the date the T&Cs took effect for existing customers, based on info from the front cover of the leaflet. All others: the publication date taken from the printer's info on the back page, where it is specified in the format MM/YY. I suggest assuming that the T&Cs took effect for existing customers between one and four months after the print date. This assumption is based on the following: 1. In the section about the issue of new T&Cs, the T&Cs state: If the change is to your disadvantage, we will tell you about it personally at least 30 days before we make the change.We may make any other change immediately and tell you about it within 30 days. If we make a disadvantageous change, you may, at any time up to 60 days from the date we tell you of the change, switch your account or close it. This makes it likely that the T&Cs take effect at least one month after issue. 2. The only examples where the dates can be compared are the two Changes to T&Cs leaflets. In those leaflets the publication date is the same as the date when the T&Cs took effect for new customers. The T&Cs took effect for existing customers 3 or 4 months later. **************************************************************************************************** LIST OF T&Cs POSTED SO FAR **************************************************************************************************** NOTE: ALL T&Cs ARE AVAILABLE IN PDF FORMAT -----> -----> -----> -----¬/ Month.. Print code..... Type.... Imgs Pgs Source.......... 1st post LINK TO PDF FILE ------- --------------- -------- ---- --- ---------------- -------- ******************************** 1996-?? ?.............. Complete 25.. 25. scan of original 51...... 1996 HSBC T&C.pdf 1996-?? ?.............. Complete TEXT ... ................ 3....... 1996 HSBC T&C.rtf (Rich Text) 1997-01 ?.............. Extract. 3... 3.. dg photocopy.... 4....... 1997-01 HSBC T&C - part.pdf 1999-01 ?.............. Extract. 3... 3.. dg photocopy.... 5....... 1999-01 HSBC T&C - part.pdf 1999-09 ?.............. Extract. 2... 4.. dg photocopy.... 6....... 1999-09 HSBC T&C - part.pdf 2000-10 ?.............. Extract. 2... 4.. dg photocopy.... 7....... 2000-10 HSBC T&C - part.pdf 2002-07 ?.............. Extract. 3... 6.. dg photocopy.... 8....... 2002-07 HSBC T&C - part.pdf 2002-09 ?.............. Extract. 3... 6.. dg photocopy.... 9....... 2002-09 HSBC T&C - part.pdf 2003-06 MCP18139 06/03. Changes. 10.. 10. scan of original 10...... 2003-06 HSBC T&C - changes.pdf 2004-08 MCP21428....... Complete 48.. 48. archive.org..... 12...... 2004-08 HSBC T&C.pdf 2004-12 MCP21424 09/04. Changes. 10.. 10. scan of original 56...... 2004-12 HSBC T&C - changes.pdf 2005-08 MCP24515(08/05) Complete 47.. 47. archive.org..... 61...... 2005-08 HSBC T&C.pdf 2006-12 MCP27762 12/06. Complete 47.. 47. hsbc.co.uk...... none.... 2006-12 HSBC T&C.pdf 2006-12 None........... Complete 25.. 48. scan of original none.... 2006-12-01 HSBC T&C.pdf **************************************************************************************************** PLEASE SEND ANY T&Cs, PRICE LISTS AND FACILITY LETTERS TO [email protected] ****************************************************************************************************

detayo1: Yes, all of them. Also read them and make sure you can identify the bits that are useful for your claim. In my case, and based on HSBC's T&Cs, defence and new cover story, I looked for and found bits which said: 1) that you mustn't or shouldn't or are required not to go over your OD limit or (better still) attempt a payment which would take you over it. 2) that the charges or fees are payable if, when or because you go over the limit (or try to) 3) that the charges are to cover costs (this is optional but good esp. for rebutting the limitations defence, on the basis of concealment.) 4) that in letting you go over the limit they aren't giving you an OD extension - or that you must immediately pay enough in to take you below the limit. Again not required but handy as part of the argument that their story about a service is cobblers. The T&Cs may be different for Halifax, so you will need to use your own judgement. These are suggestions, not hard and fast advice. Don't rely on what I say without thinking it through yourself. I'm not a lawyer - and even if I were, I'm certainly not your lawyer! stax

thanks lateralus - beyond the call and all that! Basically, this stuff confirms my view. It'd be handy to have an example/precedent in which this kind of thing has been done before though. But basically they are trying it on with OD interest - though I'm willing to believe they actually do think (temporarily) that the compound interest claim is defendable, poor deluded fools! Well, not poor... I agree it looks as though they've selected my case for a bit of resistance, as they do with selected cases from time to time...they still don't let them get to court though, eh!! Hopefully lots of others will go through relatively easily while they're farting around with mine. I'd be interested to see them try to strike out the OD and 'contractual' interest parts of the claim. I'll aim to have a response to the letter waiting for them on Monday morning, I think. Cheers again L. stax

With reference to the above letter, does anyone have any bright ideas fior a knockdown argument on the overdraft interest point? Preferably a unanimous HoL decision on near-identical facts, subsequenty applied in hundreds of other cases... I think it's pretty clear that as the interest was charged on sums which should never have been taken, it is recoverable as it is a cost directly associated with the charges and arising directly from them. Their argument was that I would just have spent more money if they hadn't taken the charges, so I would have ended up paying just as much interest anyway.

Please ask for: Rachel Tomlinson Your Ref: Our Ref: DMD/NW/XXXXXXXX Date: 31st May 2007 Dear Sir XXXXX XXXX –v- HSBC Bank plc Claim Number: 6QZXXXXX We refer to the hearing that took place on 24 May in Brighton County Court and to our open letter of 22 May. We wish to make it clear that HSBC's offer as contained in our letter of 22 May remains open to you. As stated in that letter (written on an open basis), we believe the offer of £4,309.71 to be a generous and fair offer in the circumstances, particularly in light of the fact that the offer includes £1,017.50 in respect of statute barred charges. HSBC is not prepared to make any offer in relation to your claims for compound interest and overdraft interest. Regarding your claim for compound interest, we have previously explained to you that the House of Lords case Westdeutsche Landesbank Girozentrale v Islington London Borough Council [1996] 2 ALL ER 961 is authority for the proposition that, absent exceptional circumstances, the court has no jurisdiction to award compound interest. Westdeutsche established that in the absence of agreement or custom the court has no jurisdiction to award compound interest either at law or under section 35A of the Supreme Court Act 1981 (the same would apply to section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984). In this regard, two points should be noted. Firstly, there was no agreement between HSBC and you that you would be entitled to recover compound interest in the event that HSBC breached the contract (which is denied). The only provisions in HSBC's terms and conditions relate to the entitlement of HSBC - not you - to charge interest. Secondly, so far as custom is concerned, unlike a bank's entitlement to charge its customer compound interest (see National Bank of Greece SA v. Pinios Shipping Co No. 1 [1990] 1 A.C. 637, HL) there is no custom that a customer is entitled to claim compound interest from its bank. The House of Lords also said that in the absence of fraud, the courts of equity would not award compound interest unless a fiduciary relationship could be established. It is well established that the relationship of banker and customer is that of debtor and creditor and, in the usual way, there is no fiduciary relationship between the bank and its customer. The core banking activities of deposit-taking and lending - which were the only activities that HSBC provided to you, - are not fiduciary in character: Bank of Scotland v. A Ltd [2001] 1 W.L.R. 751, [25], CA; Encyclopaedia of Banking Law, paras C(111) to C(120). Nothing exists in this case that sets the relationship between you and HSBC apart from the ordinary. Hence, your claim for compound interest cannot succeed and, at most, you are entitled to recover only simple interest (at the rate of 8%per annum) under section 69of the County Courts Act 1984 (which forms part of HSBC's offer as set out in our letter of 22 May). As for your claim for overdraft interest, as we have previously explained, you are, in effect, seeking a double recovery because your claim already includes interest. In any event, you have failed to explain to us the legal basis for this claim. There is no legal principle of mutuality or reciprocity which entitles you to claim interest at the same rate as the bank's interest rate. Should you continue to reject the offer as set out in our letter of 22 May, we will issue an application on behalf of HSBC seeking to strike out your claims for compound interest and overdraft interest. Finally, as we have previously pointed out to you and as the District Judge emphasised at the hearing, this case is in the fast track and you are therefore exposed to our client's costs incurred in connection with your claim (including in respect of any applications that may be made by either party) in the event that you lose at trial. HSBC's costs to date, including Counsel's costs to attend at the 24 May hearing, are approximately £1,300. These costs will mount considerably in the build up to trial, including complying with the various directions given by the District Judge. In addition, to the extent that there are any applications between now and trial, HSBC will seek to recover its costs in relation thereto, including preparation for and attendance at any related hearings. When deciding the extent of the costs payable by the losing party, the court will take into account the conduct of both parties, including the unreasonableness of any rejections of offers to settle. We reserve our client's right to draw this letter to the attention of the Court at any stage of the proceedings, including at the final hearing. Yours faithfully DG SOLICITORS

Phoenix: I don't think the 'may' does much work really. Even if they said they 'will', it would be open to them to waive the charges. Anyway, I don't really like statutes. Case law is much more fun.

While you're at it try and find out who this bit of disinformation originated from!