Bump The more I look around the site, the more enforceable this 'application form' becomes! On the others that I have seen posted there seems to be a Company date stamp and a sig. which mine hasn't. Obvo' need help!! greatburdon

Hi... Recieved from our good friend Gail Powell the following 'credit card application form'. Can someone please advise whether this is an enforceable agreement as requested by me? http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/MBNAfront.jpg http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/MBNABack.jpg Here is the letter she sent, full of untruths and boloney. http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/ABBEY.jpg http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/ABBEYCont.jpg Appreciate any help in responding to the 'compliance of my request'. greatburdon

Received a letter from Gail Powell dated 26 June received 10 July (postmarked 9 July) ... Do they just sit on them? Her letter:- http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/ABBEY.jpg http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/ABBEYCont.jpg I sent a CPR request on 6 July so this is not in response to that. Included with the letter is the Credit Card Application form signed. Can someone please advise if this is a compliant Credit Card Agreement that is executable, I assume as it is just the application form with no signature from the company it does not. There was also a seperate sheet containing what would appear to be current conditions. http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/MBNAfront.jpg http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/MBNABack.jpg In her letter she claims that all recordings of phone conversations must be identified to them at the beginning of a call, this is not my understanding. Can someone please clarify this point, not that I will be talking to them on the phone. greatburdon

Firstly thank you very much diddy for taking the time to post to my thread, much appreciated. The total sum outstanding has just gone over £10k after the last interest charge. The only reference to default in any correspondence is in the following letters and I was unaware that the account has been terminated until the letter received dated 4 July, but have had no official notification that I am aware of. http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/NWestdefault2.jpg On the subject of recording missed payments/default with CRA's, whilst I understand your points I am still at a loss to understand how reporting can continue when the main document, the signed contract, is missing having been 'mis-filed'(save as you say evidence of expenditure/payments statements etc).... So I would certainly like to challenge the wrecking of a credit history. As far as the offer of payment to settle goes I am not prepared to make an offer until/unless the agreement turns up and is executable. I am considering writing asking for the default notice and confirmation of the date of termination of the account then start complaints procedure with anyone I can think of with a view to challenging the data reporting. They will be told there will be no further correspondence or payments until the agreement magically appears. Not sure if this is the right tack as my head is still fuddled, think I will sleep on it! greatburdon

I must admit I am now totally lost and not sure of the response I should make. I understand that they cannot enforce the non existent agreement but they continue to seemingly disregard what I understand to be the 'law' on collection and reporting on this account. Is diddydickys point that if the account is now terminated then the account no longer exists? The confusion tactics are certainly working! greatburdon

Hi UnitedFront the letter of mine which they refer to is: Nat West Bank Plc Cards Customer Services PO Box 5636 Southend On Sea SS99 1WJ Account No. 18th June 2009 Dear Miss Bennett, I write with reference to the above account number, and your letter of 12th June 2009. Your letter of June 12th 2009 confirms that you do not hold, and are unable at this time to locate an executed Consumer Credit Card Agreement. Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law as you have failed to provide a copy of an executed and enforceable agreement. NatWest therefore cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities. The lack of a properly executed Consumer Credit Card Agreement is clearly a reason for the account to be in serious dispute. *1 Any subsequent legal action you pursue will be averred as both unlawful and vexatious. Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment. The issuing of a Default Notice when no Consumer Credit Card Agreement exists is also a serious breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. How can there be a breach of an agreement when no such agreement exists? As you do not have an executed Consumer Credit Card Agreement the reporting of any data to any Credit Referencing Agency is a breach of s10 Data Protection Act 1998, as you cannot provide any proof that I have consented to my data being processed. The consequence of such a breach is demonstrated by a recent legal case. *5 Schedule 2 Data Protection Act 1998: 3.1.1 Conditions for Processing At least one of the following conditions must be met in the case of all processing of personal data (except where a relevant exemption applies):- The data subject has given his consent to the processing (see paragraph 3.1.5 below). The processing is necessary – (a) for the performance of a contract to which the data subject is a party; or (b) for the taking of steps at the request of the data subject with a view to entering into a contract. Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under s 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and those held with any Credit Reference Agencies. Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. The reason for this demand is that you have not proven that I have given my permission to you to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right` as without my written permission you have no right to do this. I refer you to *6, for the consequences of processing data illegally to the detriment of a persons credit rating. You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends. Should you not respond within 14 days I will accept this as your agreement to remove all such data by yourselves and those held by any credit referencing agencies. Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take any action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. Please inform your recoveries department of this fact. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies. * You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. * You may not add further interest or any charges to the account. * You may not pass the account to a third party. * You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency. * You may not issue a default notice related to the account. I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit e.g. Trading Standards, Information Commissioners Office, OFT, FSA, Banking Ombudsman and my M.P. If you are not sure of anything contained within this letter I would suggest you take advice from your local Citizens Advice Bureau or trading Standards office. I look forward to your prompt reply. Yours faithfully *1 CCA 1974 s.61 "(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless - (a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner” S.127 Enforcement orders in cases of infringement (1) In the case of an application for an enforcement order under - (3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1) (a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner)." *2 Wilson & Anor v Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299 (04 April 2007) 33. In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties (with the benefit of legal advice if necessary) and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under section 61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127 (3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. *3 Dimond v. Lovell [2000] UKHL 27; [2000] 2 All ER 897; [2000] 2 WLR 1121 (11th May, 2000) Parliament intended that if a consumer credit agreement was improperly executed, then subject to the enforcement powers of the court, the debtor should not have to pay. *4 The Vice Chancellor Lord Justice Chadwick in the Supreme Court of Judicature Court of Appeal (Civil Division) on Appeal from Epsom County Court (HHJ Hull) Wilson v First CountyTrust [2000] EWCA Civ 278 (3 November 2000) 26. The question arises from the terms of s.61 (1), 65 and 127 to which I have referred in paragraphs 9 and 10. It is apparent from the terms of s.61 (1) that there are several grounds on which a regulated agreement may be "not properly executed" so as to require enforcement by court order under s.65. The restrictions on such enforcement contained in s.127 are in two forms; the first (s.127(1) and(2)) leaves it to the discretion of the court, the second contained in s.127(3) is an absolute bar if the regulated agreement did not contain the prescribed terms. *5 Judgement of SHERIFF J K TIERNEY Durkin v DSG Retail & HFC Bank PLC (May 2008) 120. The cases of Kpohraror, King and Wilson were all based on contract but it does not seem to me that there is any difference in principle between the nature of damages to be awarded in respect of a loss of credit brought about by a breach of contract, and one brought about by negligent misrepresentation. 121. I find that the pursuer is entitled to an award for the general damage to his credit in addition to an award in respect of the actual loss flowed sustained. Having regard to all the circumstances I consider that an appropriate award would be £8,000. Are you suggesting the CPR letter as kindly posted by zazen is the way forward? greatburdon

Just received the following:- http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/NatWest-1.jpg I must be a bit thick! I am expected to meet my obligations on an agreement that does not exist. They have registered a default (I do not recall a notice) and the account is terminated (when??) I have until 13 Thursday 2009 to come to an agreement?? what sort of date is that? lol Not sure how to respond now, any help please.The stronger the better. greatburdon

Thanks for your reply Vint, I am now signing most of my letters in a 'creative' way and in an anti-tamper box so that there are no more excuses as to who I am! Did you not follow the CPR through i.e. take it to court? Think I will send the draft I just posted and see what happens. greatburdon

Included a mention of my CPR in my draft....Am I on the right lines? Dear Sirs, I write in response to your letter dated XXXXX Your letter is incorrect and frivolous, you are fully aware of legally valid reasons why no payment has been made on this account, namely that the agreement which underpins this account has not been supplied despite a perfectly valid request and furthermore, it is suggested that notwithstanding the failure to supply a copy, the agreement itself is improperly executed, devoid of all prescribed terms and deficient in respect of detail relating to APR, total charge for credit and statements of rights ,remedies and protections as required by schedules 1,2 and 6 Consumer Credit Agreements Regulations 1983 Therefore the agreement as outlined in section 65 (1) Consumer Credit Act must be laid before the court to be granted an enforcement order before any further action can be taken It is my view that the court would not grant such an order due to the deficiencies that i have outlined within the agreement, further more this has already been raised with (name of bank or previous DCA) yet I note they have still assigned the account over to yourselves and the absence of any documents disproving my points itself speaks volumes Therefore, I would indeed welcome the opportunity to place this before the court. I have sent a letter dated 6th July 2009 to Helen Packwood, HSBC card services, again requesting a true signed copy of the agreement relating to the above account. This was made pursuant to Civil Procedure Rules (Pre action protocols and Part 31.16), with the intention of inviting the court to decide the validity of any agreement. Furthermore should you proceed with the threats to issue a court claim I will make an immediate application to have it set aside for the grounds outlined above, also I shall refer the judge to this letter when the matter of costs falls due I trust this outlines my position clearly enough for you

Found this letter posted by 42Man (Thank You) ... Reckon this is the sort of letter to send, perhaps adding that I am initiating court action through my CPR request. Dear Sirs, I write in response to your letter dated XXXXX Your letter is incorrect and frivolous, you are fully aware of legally valid reasons why no payment has been made on this account, namely that the agreement which underpins this account has not been supplied despite a perfectly valid request and furthermore, it is suggested that notwithstanding the failure to supply a copy, the agreement itself is improperly executed, devoid of all prescribed terms and deficient in respect of detail relating to APR, total charge for credit and statements of rights ,remedies and protections as required by schedules 1,2 and 6 Consumer Credit Agreements Regulations 1983 Therefore the agreement as outlined in section 65 (1) Consumer Credit Act must be laid before the court to be granted an enforcement order before any further action can be taken It is my view that the court would not grant such an order due to the deficiencies that i have outlined within the agreement, further more this has already been raised with (name of bank or previous DCA) yet I note they have still assigned the account over to yourselves and the absence of any documents disproving my points itself speaks volumes Therefore, I would indeed welcome the opportunity to place this before the court. furthermore should you proceed with the threats to issue a court claim I will make an immediate application to have it set aside for the grounds outlined above, also I shall refer the judge to this letter when the matter of costs falls due I trust this outlines my position clearly enough for you

Have received the following letter from DG Solicitors. http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/DGsolicitors.jpg On the 6th June I sent the 'bemused' letter to Metropolitan Collection Services and also sent first letter to HSBC under CPR on 6th June as my CCA requests came to nothing (other than blank forms and reams of conditions) Is the response to DG to tell their client, seeing as tho' you are solicitors, to provide a signed agreement as required in law and include all correspondence to date? Perhaps inform them that they are now under notice with the 1st CPR letter having been sent. There was a 5 day gap between the Metropolitan letter (their first involvement) and the DG letter (the first from them), hardly enough time to respond? greatburdon

Agreed postggj I would do thinks differently regarding my signature if I was starting now. Due to the delays that not signing causes I would use a slightly amended signature in an anti-tamper box (or put a line through) just to cut out the 'we dont know who you are' argument. greatburdon

Thank you for that letter Clemma, it makes the position much clearer. My thoughts were that if you go in front of a District Judge and the other side made the argument that the reason for non-compliance was because of The Data Protection Act i.e. they could not because letters were unsigned or initialed,then the likelyhood would be agreement from the DJ that a sig. would be required. Therefore it may be that at some point to keep things moving and get the required info a signature has to be given even if it is slightly altered or signed in an 'anti-tamper' box. greatburdon

The advice has always been to refuse signing any letters to OC's or DCA's. Having been quoted this paragraph by a bank who is right? "Please note that according to the Data Protection Act (section 7(3)d 1998, a Data Controller is not obliged to comply with a request unless they are supplied with such information as they may reasonably require in order to satisfy themselves as to the identity of the person making the request. We require any requests to provide personal information to be made in writing and signed so that we can verify the identity of the person making the request." Have they adapted a section of the Data Protection Act to suit themselves or do they have a point? greatburdon

Hi UnitedFront. I have sent a subject access request to which I am getting the 'we dont know who you are' runaround from Sue. I also sent a CCA and laterly a CPR request for my credit card agreement which is being dealt with by a different Dept. it would seem . What I am after is the SAR info so that I can calculate bank chge info and get sight of bank loan agreements. I have CCA'd and CPR'd the credit card account seperately although it should be in the SAR bundle if I ever get it. greatburdon

Sent a letter before action stating that they had 7 days to comply with my SAR otherwise I would invite the court to make them do so. Received the following, they quote a section of the Data Protection Act (I keep stating there is no legislation which requires me to provide a sig.): http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/HSBC01.jpg http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/HSBC02.jpg Do I just accept the revised timetable that they have now set? Their acceptance of my signature is purely because of the legal threat. Also they state that the Insurance account is a seperate entity so do I SAR them seperately as indicated by them? I am loathe to accept anything they say. greatburdon

Received back a letter posted below which had enclosed my letter, also posted. I have already sent the 'you do not need my sig. letter' to a Ms. Hancock as part of my SAR, will she see this letter on their system? http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/HSBC1.jpg http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/HSBC-2.jpg My returned letter has 'charged off' hand written at the top, anyone know what this means? Also their letter is 'without prejudice' so presumably to be kept from the District Judge. I am thinking of responding with the follow up CPR 31.16 letter making it clear that a sig. is not required but sign in an anti-tamper box, therefore keeping the timetable on track. Any thoughts anyone please? I can only assume they do not have a copy of an agreement to hand and are just fobbing off. Thanks greatburdon

LOL -- You are hired! You can be my barrister, noy paying more than £600 an hour though. GB

Thank you Zazen. I suppose if they do not respond positvely i.e. still continue collection/ data processing I would go down this route and into court? greatburdon

Hi, Received the letter posted below in response to my CCA requests. I replied with a letter along the lines thank you now stop all collection and reporting of my data. http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/Natwest.jpg The collection activity has increased! and I assume as I have just had a credit agency threat letter that they will still report 'missed payments'. They obviously choose to ignore my correspondence is there a way to be pro-active i.e. CPR 31.16 ish route. They have admitted there is no agreement so can I invite a court to stop the numpties? They are driving me mad! greatburdon

Hi, Have requested credit agreement on 8th May s77/8 CCA 14th May received a blank agreement and reams of old/new conditions from HSBC which was obviously not what I asked for. Sent 22nd May in dispute letter asking again for agreement. 26th received response stating they have complied. 29th May sent them my reponse, no you havn't .. try again. 19th June sent CPR 31.6 request for the agreement. Today I have received the letter posted below. She says they have not had a response...tosh. They have passed it onto Metropolitan (Is this HSBC's in-house DCA?). Can they do this when there is a dispute? Plus she says I now have a default as reported to Experian, Equifax & Callcredit....Can I challenge this i.e. we are in dispute? http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/greatburdon/HSBC.jpg Time also to complain to OFT and FSO? greatburdon

Thanks Johnny. I did have a good look for these letters but obviously failed miserably. Your help is appreciated thank you. GB

I have had no further communication from HSBC and the 40 days for my SAR request run out in 5 days. Could someone please tell me what is the next stage? Do I send a reminder or make a court application? Many Thanks greatburdon

Well I found that interesting:eek: Rang Abbey to speak with Gail Powell (not sure if shes a real person) spoke to someone on the free phone number who asked the usual security questions which I refused to answer. He then said my name and referenced an account ending in the last 4 numbers and asked me to confirm security. I asked how he had got a name and did he realise it may be incorrect and he should not be talking about anyones account! Obvo it was me and they had managed to trace my details through my telephone number.(I assume) So I suppose the moral is be careful out there, big brother is definately watching!! greatburdon

Hi Scrible hopefully we can batter them together. I may ring one of their 'specialists' today just to waste their time as I wont be giving any personal details it will just be a general enquiry. greatburdon