Now that made me laugh!!! Just something else he can add to his ever growing file of papers then. I mean, who would want to work for a company where one of the managers has no faith in your ability. If the OH wins, I'll buy you an ewok - actually, make that a breeding pair

I think the silly man has underestimated both mine and the OH's intelligence.....oh, and the advice that is so easily gained from places like CAG and your good selves!

Ah...well if I tell you what these statements are about you will probably agree that the without prejudice meaning means nothing. One just states that a support and training meeting was carried out with the maintenance team on two occasions. It also mentions that standards were discussed. The other one is much the same except at the end of it they have written that the OH has a low level of skill/competency.

We've both known from the outset that it would be an unfair hearing, and the GM has kindly shown us that it will be. I think taking the small risk in reduction of any award would far outweigh the option of working there again. There are many, many reasons (including victimisation) as to why he could not work there again. This includes 2 statements (which we have but are unfortunately marked without prejudice) that state the OH has a low level of skill/competency. This is a huge knock to his confidence as before this time there has NEVER been reason to question his work. The OH is under no illusions of everything being great if he was to work then again and we both know that within a short time they would find something to discipline and ultimately dismiss him for (correctly).

Ok, set the record straight. The OH has all letters regarding his original interview and subsequent disciplinary meetings. He also has his dismissal letter. Now, he has a chain of emails from the GM stating everything I have told you including a PDF letter on letterheaded paper SIGNED by the GM saying everything I have told you.

Yes The GM has admitted to the OH by email that the disciplinary process was incorrect. I can only presume he is now trying to correct the mistakes made. This is a HUGE, multi million pound national company we're discussing here and the General Manager is seen in high regard by Directors......would you admit to such catastrophic errors?

Thank you! An ET1 will be submitted ASAP!

Just what I thought. I will let the GM stew over the weekend. The appeal is set for Thursday but I will quite happily tell the OH to cancel the appeal. Should he tell the GM why?

Yes. The GM is making 2 different allegations of GROSS misconduct, neither of which the OH was dismissed for. He was dismissed for misconduct. Dismissed for misconduct - reason "incorrect paper submitted to xxxxx leading to owner dissatisfaction" Reason GM has stated for appeal - "carelessness and recklessness with owner/company property" and "unacceptable standard of workmanship" hmmmm..... Oh and also in the GM's reply to the appeal letter: "the above alleged offence may constitute gross misconduct in accordance with the companys disciplinary procedure and should the alleged offence be substantiated at the meeting this may lead to your dismissal"

.............and so it continues. The OH was advised to go ahead with an appeal by ACAS just to show he followed proper procedure. He submitted his letter and in return the GM has decided to base his appeal on 2 matters that he was NOT dismissed for, has stated that it could be gross misconduct and that he could be dismissed. I have a feeling he is trying to cover up mistakes here. Surely an appeal is for the OH not for management to put right their mistakes.....Also, as he is no longer employed by them, surely a new investigation and disciplinary cannot be done. I am under the impression that an appeal has 2 outcomes - re-instatement of job or to uphold the original decision. Oh, and the paperwork he has requested will not be supplied as the GM does not think it's relevant. It is as it will prove system and management failures. Any ideas people?

The one thing I think I have missed out on this is that it states in the dismissal letter that it was for "misconduct" not "gross misconduct". I've just found out that you cannot be dismissed on a misconduct charge unless you have previous sanctions/disciplinary action against you. Oh, and the GM of the company has replied to the OH's appeal stating: "I understand that there has been a procedural error in the disciplinary process. Specifically, it appears that you were not advised that the outcome could potentially be considered gross misconduct, and could give rise to your dismissal" Ta-da! Thank you Mr GM for admitting your mistakes

Ok, well I collected some, but not all of the information OH requested. The majority of the paperwork are copies of the minutes from the meetings plus 4 emails (only one of which the OH saw in the disciplinary) The OH's problem now is this: He was dismissed for incorrect information given to xxxxx leading to owner dissatisfaction. Nothing more, nothing less. Going through his letters, in order, this is what they state: Investigative interview - incorrect information given to xxxxx regarding jobs completed First disciplinary (with 45 mins notice of offence) - Working standards and Procedures Second interview (2 hours notice) - states they have found areas that need further investigating, no mention of what though Dismissal letter - incorrect information given to xxxxx leading to owner dissatisfaction The initial interview was regarding the 2 errors the OH made regarding drain downs. There is also reference to him kicking a plastic bottle.....nothing more was brought up The first disciplinary - mentions the missed drain down checks, the bottle the OH allegedly kicked(!) and they asked if he had received support and training (the OH is dyslexic so struggles with long lists etc) to which the OH said no. The second interview - Again refers to support and training and they state he was offered it on 3 occasions. This was for something called snagging and not his dyslexia. He declined the support as he has been doing snagging for 2 years. They then throw into the mix problems with just ONE unit out of the many units the OH has snagged (basically fixing things within unit) and stated it was below standard. The OH had done what he could with the unit as he had no parts available to him. This was something the OH was not expecting to be brought up as it had not been previously mentioned! Nothing else was mentioned - just the re-iteration of this one particular unit. He was not dismissed for the snagging issues, just the paperwork he submitted regarding the drain downs. In amongst all this are 3 statements, all of which refer to support and training offered to the OH. Two are marked Without Prejudice. On no occasion was he offered individual help - the maintenance department were asked as a team. The statement from the GM (who just happens to be the one who will conduct the appeal) mentions training but also throws in information about the one unit that was not up to standard and how unhappy he was with it. This email was received by the people doing the disciplinary at 13.27 - just before the OH's 2nd interview, giving the person doing the disciplinary 3 MINUTES to prepare and the OH no time to prepare (his interview was at 13.30). Can they now say he was also dismissed due to this one unit being below standard or is the dismissal letter and what it states final? Even though all this has now been brought up, it doesn't change the facts already mentioned about how they went about the disciplinary......hopefully we will still have a case.

No, he was under no sanctions at all and the dismissal was without notice. He received the outcome by letter and was frogmarched to the maintenance yard, watched while he handed in keys then escorted off site. He is only due his outstanding pay and holiday pay next Friday.

Huge. It's a national company. It's a case of taking on the big boys....

I should state that before finding out I was pregnant, the OH was praised for his good work by both the manager and the general manager. We were originally going to put in a grievance against him but obviously that won't happen now. I still have the option of doing one myself but it may been seen as vindictive/vengeful. The list of how the manager has been is quite long, but I am in a rush right now as I have to get to work. I'll expand in further detail tomorrow.

As he could not get me to quit, although he tried, he turned on the OH. He was very friendly with the manager until 5 weeks ago - since then he has picked on every aspect of the OH's job, stopped talking to him, become unapproachable, and then this trumped up disciplinary charge ending in his dismissal.

Thanks for that. Well, we'll see what tomorrow brings with regards to the information OH has requested and go from there. It's good to know he has things in his favour though. You just have to hope that a tribunal will see that too. Will keep you updated. Thanks again.

No, I'm not taking them to a tribunal.......it's his managers attitude since finding out that I was pregnant towards the OH. I can put up with it as I leave soon.

Thanks for the reply. Just as I thought SarEl. The appeal probably will be unsuccessful as the maintenance manager and the general manager are very matey, both yes men I suppose. He'll let it go through like you suggest and wont mention a tribunal to them. We can prove the above with documents and paperwork IF the manager will supply them. Although, I am guessing that he would have to if requested by the tribunal. Apparently he has it ready for me to pick up on the OH's behalf tomorrow at noon. I don't quite know how he is going to supply something that he has lost, but there you go. I also know they will NOT have a letter from the owner who complained. Without the paperwork, they really did not have a case. Like I said, the only document they submitted was an email from a member of staff to the GM. It all boils down to getting him out one way or another - now I have the worry of being forced out too, although I only have to stick it out until the end of April before maternity leave. Can we use the above facts I stated about me being pregnant and how the manager has been behaving in a tribunal or not?

Yeah, we have a copy of the handbook, which has the discipline guidelines in it - they clearly state 24 hours notice to be given of "location, time, date, offence, who will be conducting meeting".....Also the offence falls under misconduct NOT gross misconduct. It states misconduct can lead to warnings - does not mention dismissal.

Hi guys My OH was dismissed at work yesterday after a disciplinary hearing. The offence was "incorrect information in paper work given to xxxxx regarding jobs completed". Basically, he had to check over 200 static caravans to make sure they had been drained down. Out of these 200+ he made 2 mistakes. 1. The units are not all numbered and he thought one of them was off pitch 2. One unit he could not gain access to due to having no master key He wrote this on the paperwork, which was submitted to the maintenance manager. It appears that the owners of these 2 units have apparently become angry upon finding out the drain downs have not been completed and therefore the OH was blamed. I must state that he was NOT doing the draining down, just checking to see if work had been done. Now, if I rewind to November last year - this was the time that all units underwent the work. Some could not be done due to ice build up etc, so were marked as not done on the paperwork which was submitted to the maintenance manager. This paperwork (as far as the OH knows) was lost by the manager. In December, the security team were asked to check all units, which they did. Again, this list was handed in to the maintenance manager. The OH checked the units again in January, using the identical list security used. It appears that the manager, for some reason, did not act upon the information given to him in both November and December and did not make any attempt to get the work done on any outstanding units. There were many reasons as to why we think this was unfair: - He is being used as a scapegoat due to the managers ineptitude - Although he was told on Friday about the time of the disciplinary, he was not given any information about it until 45 minutes beforehand (ie alleged offence, who was taking meeting etc). - In the letter it stated that the offence may constitute misconduct and may lead to a warning. As he was not expecting dismissal, he did not take anyone in to the meeting with him (although he would have struggled given the short notice) - After the hearing he was told he would be given the outcome in 24 hours. Instead, the next day (Tuesday) they gave him another letter asking him to attend another meeting to discuss further issues. He had 2 hours notice this time. - He was dismissed for "Incorrect information on paperwork given to xxxx causing owner dissatisfaction" - a slightly different offence to the one stated in the original letter. Now, he could have asked for another day and time, but as he was under the assumption that a warning was all he would receive he wanted it out of the way. So, he is going to appeal. So far, he has asked for certain documentation to help him - this includes the presumed lost paperwork, the paperwork from security, statements from security stating when they checked these units, photocopies of the security log book to prove dates checks were done, written letters from dissatisfied owners dated BEFORE the disciplinary and complete notes for all hearings. His letter of dismissal states that all mitigating circumstances were taken into consideration. If this truly was the case, then we would presume the evidence had been looked into - especially the allegations about his manager. The OH had no evidence at these meetings as he was given no time, and the person doing the hearing did not either as the OH would have been entitled to it. In fact, the only evidence they had was an email to the general manager from a member of staff regarding drain downs being incomplete. That's it. Sorry for going on a bit, but we both think this is wrong! Oh, and let me just add in to the mix......I'm pregnant, I work at the same place (on security), the manager was a good friend until we told him about the pregnancy just 5 weeks ago. He has now turned, will not talk to me, makes me feel guilty for being pregnant and going on maternity leave, is refusing to co-operate with me about what I will do (as security is obviously unsafe) or telling me I will be standing for 7 hours......Basically, he has made my life difficult at work to the point where I would love to quit. As he has not been able to drive me out, he turned to the OH. The Maintenance Manager is also the security manager..... Forgot to add - he has worked there since March 2009. Although it's classed as seasonal work, if you stay throughout the winter/shut down period, and after 12 months, you become permanent. Good case for an appeal/unfair dismissal or not?

Oh, yeah It's common knowledge but forgot it wouldn't be known on here! 4 months gone now and all is well. Makes me smile everyday.

Long time no posting for me! Hello all What made me smile today.....lexx talking to baby bump and playing harry potter audio books to it

Unfortunately the OH has NO details of the ticket/fine other than what he has been told. The letter says nothing except Kent and the bailiff told him next to nothing. I suppose we can sit around until they call again, but to be honest, I want this sorted ASAP. This is from 9 years ago (or 3 depending on what the bailiff felt like saying), so he has nothing - he can't even remember getting any fines or parking tickets!

Cheers fork. Until I speak to them the OH has no idea which council or court dealt with this. The letter he does have just says Kent - no reference number or anything. Will hopefully know more tomorrow, but I'm doubtful Marstons will willingly give me information. EDIT: The OH has never lived in Kent, nor been to Kent. Presumably he would have to have committed whatever offence it was in Kent for it to have been dealt with there......The more I think about it, the less sense this all makes.