You're right it's not very legible is it lol From what I can decipher in the top left there is some mention of the customer's copy of t and c's being attached or some such. Have they supplied you with a copy of that? From it's overall format it looks like there's an attempt to get all the prescribed terms there but it really is too blurred to tell for certain. I got caught out by a clause in top left that said something like 'once signed by the bank and a card is issued this becomes an agreement' which I can't see on yours, but it isn't easy to tell! I would at present question it on it's legibility, end of story. As it's clearly a microfiche copy, later down the line if you end up there, challenge then to confirm they have the original, and if they say they do [which has got to be highly unlikely] if you are in a litigation situation, use the appropriate CPR requests to get them to produce it.

Omoeko: also, if if goes to court, how will I know if they have the real document or they just waiting till it reaches court then show the real document,then I will get a shocker and pay court fees as well. If they had the original [or a decent copy of it] I think it is 99% certain they'd have sent it to you. They may be still be looking for it, who knows something may turn up but I would say it's very unlikely. If they have a kosher agreement it will be to hand and they will forward it to you if only for the satisfaction of shutting you up, and focussing your mind on repaying them. 99.99% of the time I reckon they neither have the resources nor inclination to play games although of course you always have to be ready for worst case scenario Here's a link to my thread- it's an enforceable agreement by all accounts although its very doubtful the original exists. I think I've suffered bad luck rather than the bank's good management but there you go! The fact is they had it, and sent it on the first off, which I think is a useful lesson in itself. Have a look anyway. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/187852-skem-lloyds-tsb-sechari.html

Yep originals must be shown under CPR procedure but of course it's up to you as the defendant, if it ever goes near a court, to make sure the judge is well aware of that; quoting relevant legislation should wake them up sufficiently

Looks like some cobbled together stuff to me. If they had anything with your signature on it, I'm pretty sure they'd have sent it [like they did to me groan lol]

Good luck Shelbelle looks to me as if you're certainly batting with the odds on your side so far [PS if you bottom out whether you had PPI or not looks like you should have a separate agreement for that too but I'm just finding out about that as well]

I was just going to ask this question but found a thread already started asking just that! Do charges included in the default balance affect the validity of the default notice? Mine includes about 120 quids worth added after I'd notified the creditor I was in probs and had returned the card.

Link to my trials here! http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/187852-skem-lloyds-tsb-sechari.html Any comments most welcome peeps.

Thanks again looks like I've got some serious reading to do!

Thanks NP info much appreciated, I will try to now digest! I'm just trying to think simply here though- in my case I had an ordinary credit card whereby the t and c's were printed on the back of the initial app form, on which a clause made it into an agreement once signed by the bank. If kosher sounds really neat to me and don't know why all the banks didn't do it but in this case, are you saying I should have had separate and c's for another function of my card? [didn't have PPI or additional loan facilities or anything remember].

Sorry forgot to answer last bit! Mastercard credit card, 1999, no PPI

NP: Well, you can bet it is a Section 18 Multiple Agreement. The OFT won an appeal in the High Court a few years of so ago, and it seems the Court ruled Lloyds TSB Credit Cards are a Multiple Agreement, and their agreements should be laid out as such. SD: Sorry if I'm being a bit thick here I might of missed something- you say all LTSB cards are 'multiple agreements?' I can't get my head around what one of these is...haven't had a look at your link yet, I'll do that.

Hi NP yes under CPR procedure regs etc the original must be produced in court which is obviously a very important factor everyone should keep in mind- I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of litigation cases would fall down on this alone. If anything close to an executable agreement is produced by a creditor, I reckon it's on going to be a copy of some sort. It looks like I've been caught out by the banks good luck rather than good management; a reasonable copy [but not complete, some of it hasn't been copied in its entirity] of both sides of an app form which a clause says becomes an agreement upon their signature. If it ever got to litigation I would of course ask for the original to be produced to prove both copies really were the front and back of the same document, so it should technically fall down [like I said, I'd put money on the original being shredded a long time ago]. Just makes it more of a technicality 'gamble' than if the agreement was rubbish/non-existant lol

Just a general question- does anybody know of/ had a positive experience of getting a debt written off?

SHELBELLE: Slightly confusing info as they did send me a "CCA" that was illegible and looked like an application form..I am wondering if they really have a better copy that is a properly executed CCA. I very very much doubt it. It sounds like you were sent a copy of a microfiche like me, which means the original would have been shredded years ago [otherwise why microfiche lol]. My problem is that the work experience bod doing the microfiching at the time of my application wasn't half asleep and I got a reasonably legible copy of the agreement. You need to concentrate on the illegibility/ non existence of original in this; these Lloyds app form/agreements are looking enforceable, it appears mine is [see Skem vs Lloyds/Sechari] theoretically although in my case the original has probably a 99% chance of not existing anymore so there's technically no proof the t and c's are part of the executed agreement, which makes it more of a pain to contest if push came to shove but still contestable. Just thank your lucky stars for bored copier slaves! lol

Thanks guys

Do not call them [partic if it's a premium rate number]. Keep everything in writng that way you have a permanent record of all dealings for your file, your stress levels are kept lower and in the crucial early stages of negotiating with them, send everything recorded delivery as Babybear says.

I'm guessing you mean here unless the app form shows all the prescribed terms or proof that they were shown elsewhere on the doc [eg overleaf] it's unenforceable...otherwise as far as running credit goes we're all wasting our time on in these forums lol

palomino: What the document actually is depends on the contents, not the heading at the top. Most, if not all, banks and other lenders do this. You will see many threads here on CAG where a poster has requested a copy of their credit agreement only to receive a document headed as an application. The content of the document is usually the content of an agreement and the signature usually says that it is signed as an agreement under the Consumer Credit Act. But there would have to be a very specific statement stating that, wouldn't there, like 'once this application is accepted by our sig below then this will form an agreement' and then a direct link to any t and c's etc. within/on the same document. That's what gives my app form from lloyds more credence, so the issue is as another poster has mentioned, is it valid as a bona fide agreement, or is it effectively pre-contractual? In my case [i've provided links in a previous post to copies] there's technicalities- it's obviously a microfiche doc so the original will be long gone, and whoever microfiched it in the first place couldn't be bothered to copy the doc in its entirity- some of the qualifying statement I've mentioned above is half missing and the bank when signing have only partially dated it [day/month] but they're relatively minor issues. What I'm interested in is the legal standing of a document that you sign in good faith as an application form [regardless of any relevant 'small print' clause], becoming at some time after that, a legal agreement without any further input from the applicant. Now I'm not up on the fine detail of the CCA Act 74/regs by any means but I thought it's provisions were primarily drafted to prevent such a thing happening- admittedly from traders more rogue than Lloyds lol but the principal remains the same.

clemma:and help them prepare their defense?? No, you keep what you know to yourself - you only need tell them IF it ever went to court as it would be forming part of your defense Thanks Clemma good advice think I'll keep my powder dry and fire off the write-off letter and IE showing them [again] how skint I am lol

Looks like there no direct link to t and c's there to me, just your data protection rights so can't see how it's a properly executed agreement. Would be useful for you to see what's behind the padlock though just to be sure...

palomino: The act of signing and dating it is called executing it. If you have done so then you have executed the agreement. If you didn't like an application form turning into an agreement when you signed it then you shouldn't have signed it. Trying to dispute the matter now on these grounds will get absolutely nowhere I'm afraid. Hindsight is a wonderful thing ... Sorry. Hi Palamino I don't have a 'problem' if it is an executed agreement- it's the first out of over half a dozen so can't complain- and in the good times we've all signed things without thinking of the consequences lol But that aside, I'm going through this process to lift the threat of any court action off me so I can get on with life as I'm going to be skint for the foreseeable future ,and as it is likely this document is not the original which went in the shredder some time ago, that's probably achieved anyway. I'm stilll intrigued though how a bank can use this process of getting someone to initially sign an application form that turns automatically into an agreement when they sign it. If it's so kosher [and it seems a really neat way of doing it to me] why didn't all of them do it?

Hi B3rty I'm 99% certain it's the same document [i have a thread in debt industry 'skem vs lloyds TSB/Sechari'] however it is obviously a microfiched doc that's been photocopied so it's likely the original no longer exists. I accept it if it is an enforceable agreement- like I said win some lose some lol- I just want to avoid the hassle of any court action and so I assume by using the appropriate CPR procedures requiring the production of the original [the t and c's side isn't signed or dated so technically there is no connection between the two] that should stymy that. i'm also long termed unemployed, asset-less etc so hardly a target but just want to cover as many bases as possible. Links below: http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr35/markb_016/lloydsapplicform.jpg http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr35/markb_016/lloydsTandCs.jpg

These days more than ever I think they'd be happy to settle for whatever cash amount they can get considering the actual value of the debt to them, will now be a lot lower than what you see on paper. I think with a 2k offer they'll be sending someone round to pick up the cheque lol Plead poverty offer them 10% and work up from that, they're only looking at processing token payments ad infinitum so you might get away with a lot lower amount.

clemma:Yes, they should produce the original in court. Remember though, the Judge's decision is final, and if the Judge is satisfied with a microfiche copy........(sounds a tad unfair, I know). SD: Is it worth writting to the creditor and pointing out that should it go to litigation I would request to see the original through the approprite CPR proceedure etc? as it stands there is after all technically no proof it is the same document- don't have a problem if it is, just want to avoid court action and flag up as many reasons to the creditor as poss to not do that.

This is something I'm having difficultly getting to grips with and any comments welcome. I have recieved a copy document back from Lloyds TSB that is titled 'Application Form and Agreement.' It's a straightforward app form with the terms and conditions on the back which is referred to on the application side. Perscribed terms seem to be in order in the t and c's and there's two sigs [bank one just day and month dated not year but that's another issue] so it looks enforceable. At what point though in terms of the CCA 74 does an application form become acceptable as the executed agreement? When I signed it, I was signing to apply for the credit. Now admittedly it says in small print at the top, once 'accepted by our signature below and sending you a card, then this will form an agreement...' which is fair enough but I was only applying at the time, shouldn't I have to sign something else to actually initiate the executed agreement? Maybe not, I'm just a novice at this and maybe this is a clause people should be careful to look out for when looking over their copy agreements but something about it niggles me. Now I accept this looks a pretty kosher agreement if it is one [you win some lose some lol] but, regardless of the right to cancel issue- the form says that will be sent under separate cover although I can't find any evidence of it in my file- it does seem a bit of a shortcut for the bank but maybe it's a legit one. Just flagging it up for general info if it is.