Note the distinction between "owner" and "keeper". I like this bit: If the owner isn't there, no matter how many signs there are, they won't achieve what they suggest.

Take a look at this. I posted it yesterday. I'd be interested to know if it is helpful.

IMPORTANT INFORMATION This does not constitute legal advice and is not represented as a substitute for legal advice from an appropriately qualified person or firm. This is what the writer would do in the contemplated circumstances. It is placed freely in the public domain on the basis that if it is used no liability of any kind attaches to the writer and/or the publisher. Any person relying on this information does so entirely at their own risk. **************************************************** A Cautionary Note Since I drafted these templates, life and experience has moved on. Much of the advice given now is to ignore completely all correspondence from PPCs. My only slight reservation about this is that in the remote possibility of a case being argued in court, would a failure to respond be presented by the claimant and accepted by the court as the actions of an unreasonable person? Would this then count against you? It really comes down to how you, personally, see the risk and whether you are prepared to run the risk. If you are not comfortable to ignore all communications and are not happy with running the risk I outlined above then the templates are possibly for you. I have always said, and stand by the view that you should not initiate correspondence. The “sticky” entitled Private Parking Tickets - Template Letters shared my approach for how I would deal with a private parking ticket from the outset and before I had communicated with the private parking company. I then wondered how I would approach the position if I, or say for example my wife, had already written to the private parking company explaining the background and basically appealing to their better nature. I’m also thinking that we had then received a response telling us that our appeal had been rejected. This sets out the approach that I would then take. I do recommend that you first read the sticky entitled Private Parking Tickets - Template Letters because that does include some detail, background and information that I have not repeated here. This does NOT apply to those parking tickets issued by the LA, police or Traffic Wardens. You are free to this approach provided you read and agree to the “Important Information” at the top and foot of this post. Again I acknowledge the excellent work by petej2811 in his article which can be seen here. His work is the inspiration behind much of this and he deserves appropriate credit. If I repeat anything he has said it is meant as a compliment and if I say anything in disagreement it is meant with respect. Add to your armoury for complaints with a compaint revolving around the data protection act. See here for details. Feedback with any typos, inaccuracies, omissions, improvements, errors etc is most welcome. I may come back and edit this post (subject to permissions) to add and clarify matters including relating to feedback. We do also need to think about the exception to not initiating correspondence that I referred to on the other thread. If I was not the owner of the car (say for example I had a company car, hire car or garage courtesy car) the person identified as the keeper would receive the letter from the private parking company, pay the bill and seek to recover the funds from me under alleged contractual obligation. So what I would do is to try and employ the technique above by getting the owners of the car to write and obviously amended version of the letter above. They might be reluctant to do so in which case I would trya and persuade the owners either to write and give my name only (as driver) and failing that my name and address. In the event of there being no co-operation from the vehicle owners, this is the only circumstance where I would initiate correspondence. This is the letter I would write: The response to the “appeal” rejection: The option of pushing back and saying that they need to take the matter up with the driver is now not available to us so we need to modify our approach. My response would read something like this: If you are lucky that will be the end of the matter and you will hear no more. It is more likely that they will write again, this is where it becomes more tricky to compose a template. What I have done is to write a basic letter and made suggestions for paragraphs you can insert depending on what they have said. The basic letter: This is the top and tail ready for paragraphs to be added. The variable paragraphs to add to the basic letter: You will need to make the appropriate amendments if you are writing for someone else. You may need to write more than once. I suggest that two or three times is sufficient before moving on to a “cease and desist” letter. If they have simply ignored what you have previously said. If they allege that you entered into a binding contract with them: If they allege that you trespassed: If they have added further charges: If they threaten debt collection: If they threaten court action: NOTE: In either of the two circumstances above, you may wish also to add the relevant bits from the "Cease and Desist letter". The cease and desist letter: Refer to the section with the same title in the sticky entitled Private Parking Tickets - Template Letters. The same letter applies. If you receive a letter from debt collectors: Refer to the section with the same title in the sticky entitled Private Parking Tickets - Template Letters. The same letter applies. IMPORTANT INFORMATION This does not constitute legal advice and is not represented as a substitute for legal advice from an appropriately qualified person or firm. This is what the writer would do in the contemplated circumstances. It is placed freely in the public domain on the basis that if it is used no liability of any kind attaches to the writer and/or the publisher. Any person relying on this information does so entirely at their own risk.

James, you will need evidence that you were loading and the burden is quite high if it was for a long period. Can you scan and post the tickets for us to look at. There may be other grounds to appeal.

Did you go to the Sybll Fawlty school of the bleedin' obvious!? I made reference to the risk. You have to be found guilty to be fined. To be found guilty the CPS has to decide that it is in the public interest, the copper has to turn up, they have to give evidence, they are exposed to cross examination etc etc. As I said I'd take the risk.

Worth challenging just for a laugh. Highly likely that there will be no further action. I'd take the risk.

Later addition: Sorry by "you" I of course mean "your friend" etc. OK. I reckon you could try arguing that legal liability is still with the with the owner if you can argue that the owner is not a hire company. The owner will tell you that you have a contractual obligation to reimburse them. You argue that the alleged contractual obligations are excluded by UCTA - Unfair Contract Terms Act. In practical terms here's what I would do in this position (see proviso below): 1) Keep a copy of both sides of the PCN 2) Write as follows: Dear Sirs: Re Car Reg No: This courtesy car was delivered to me on dd mm yyyy. I signed to confirm delivery and the condition of the car. I was not made aware of any contractual terms and I was not given a copy of any contractual terms, they arrived by post later. I deny that these contractual terms apply to me. When your driver parked, he parked in a way that contravened applicable laws and/or regulations. As a result it received the enclosed penalty charge notice (PCN). I had not diven the vehicle in the intervening period. I deny that, if this is a lawfully drafted and lawfully issued PCN I have any liability for it. If you decide to not to pay at the discounted rate and it is held that I have a contractual or other liability for the PCN then my liability is limited to the discounted rate and you agree to indemnify me for any excess. If you pay the PCN at any stage and I receive a credible opinion that the PCN is invalid and if it is held that I have a contractual or other liability for the PCN then my liability is limited to the discounted rate. The statements made in the preceeding two paragraphs are given without prejudice to my right to defend any and all liability. Yours faithfully PROVISO If you send the above, you may need to find another garage. I would first speak to the garage and negotiate. They may agree to split it.

What does the signed documentation say?

Pat was spot on in his conjecture. I'm really sorry but I am so out of date on this it needs a better mind than mine.

IMPORTANT INFORMATION This does not constitute legal advice and is not represented as a substitute for legal advice from an appropriately qualified person or firm. This is what the writer would do in the contemplated circumstances. It is placed freely in the public domain on the basis that if it is used no liability of any kind attaches to the writer and/or the publisher. Any person relying on this information does so entirely at their own risk. ******************************************************** A Cautionary Note Since I drafted these templates, life and experience has moved on. Much of the advice given now is to ignore completely all correspondence from PPCs. My only slight reservation about this is that in the remote possibility of a case being argued in court, would a failure to respond be presented by the claimant and accepted by the court as the actions of an unreasonable person? Would this then count against you? It really comes down to how you, personally, see the risk and whether you are prepared to run the risk. If you are not comfortable to ignore all communications and are not happy with running the risk I outlined above then the templates are possibly for you. I have always said, and stand by the view that you should not initiate correspondence. Recently a number of posters have stated how useful it would be to have a set of template letters. The following are my examples that I would use myself. They apply only to private parking tickets NOT to those issued by the LA, police or Traffic Wardens. You are free to use them provided you read and agree to the “Important Information” at the top and foot of this post. Firstly, let me acknowledge the excellent work by petej2811 in his article which can be seen here. His work is the inspiration behind much of this and he deserves appropriate credit. If I repeat anything he has said it is meant as a compliment and if I say anything in disagreement it is meant with respect. This information is prepared on the assumption that there has been no correspondence with the private parking company. If a letter has already been sent to the private parking company then a different approach is needed. By all means read this, much of it will be relevant but you will also need to refer to the sticky entitled http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-wardens/119917-private-parking-tickets-template.html Add to your armoury for complaints with a compaint revolving around the data protection act. See here for details. Feedback with any typos, inaccuracies, omissions, improvements, errors etc is most welcome. I may come back and edit this post (subject to permissions) to add and clarify matters including relating to feedback. The basic approach: To coin a phrase first used by Pat Davies, I think, on this forum – be “icily polite” at all times. My rules for the correspondence are: Do not initiate correspondence.* This means ignore the ticket but keep it. Only write when they have written to you. Do not ignore letters (unless and until you have written a “cease and desist” letter). Keep copies of all correspondence. Do not answer their questions but ask your own. Do not use any of the following in your letters: anger, sarcasm, irony, begging, sob stories, excuses etc. Write nothing that you would not be proud of if read in court. Do not add technical details unless you are absolutely sure of their accuracy. * There is an exception to this which is that if I was not the owner of the car (say for example I had a company car, hire car or garage courtesy car) the person identified as the keeper would receive the letter from the private parking company, pay the bill and seek to recover the funds from me under alleged contractual obligation. If thsi applies to you, refer to the sticky http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-wardens/119917-private-parking-tickets-template.html By doing this you will Be acting reasonably. Maintain your credibility. Have a real chance of making them give up. Drafting notes: Where something appears in square brackets eg [dd/mmmm/yyyy] it is for you to insert what is relevant to you. You may need to make contextual changes for your circumstances. The first letter: The purpose of this letter is simply to acknowledge theirs and to deny liability. It should read something like this: If you are writing for someone else (eg partner, parent etc) you will need to have your partner/parent etc write as follows: And you then write an amended first letter as follows: If you are lucky that will be the end of the matter and you will hear no more. It is more likely that they will write again, this is where it becomes more tricky to compose a template. What I have done is to write a basic letter and made suggestions for paragraphs you can insert depending on what they have said. The basic letter: This is the top and tail ready for paragraphs to be added. The variable paragraphs to add to the basic letter: You will need to make the appropriate amendments if you are writing for someone else. You may need to write more than once. I suggest that two or three times is sufficient before moving on to a “cease and desist” letter. If they have simply ignored what you have previously said. If they refer to you as owner. If they claim that you are responsible for the alleged debt. If they have added further charges: If they allege that you were the driver or that you have to name the driver: If they threaten debt collection: If they threaten court action: NOTE: In either of the two circumstances above, you may wish also to add the relevant bits from the "Cease and Desist letter". The cease and desist letter: With this letter you are basically telling them to "put-up or shut-up". Having followed the steps above, particularly if a further two or three letters have been written after the initial denial. It will be a very rash private parking company to take it further. They will simply have to explain why they did not respond. If you receive a letter from debt collectors: IMPORTANT INFORMATION This does not constitute legal advice and is not represented as a substitute for legal advice from an appropriately qualified person or firm. This is what the writer would do in the contemplated circumstances. It is placed freely in the public domain on the basis that if it is used no liability of any kind attaches to the writer and/or the publisher. Any person relying on this information does so entirely at their own risk.

See here

I'd love to see the ticket, both sides, because if this is what their web site says: Makes me think that they are unlikely to have got the wording on the ticket right. Now there is another thought. This info does not refer to "Penalty Charge Notice" and also makes no reference to NTOs or on-street parking. I'm wondering whether this is decriminalised at all or whether this is really the council operating as private parking contractors. Any thoughts on this anyone? Really need to see that ticket!

Only if the ticket (and NTO of the OP is prepared to take that risk) is lawfully drafted.

I wondered whether Bandit might be a Troll so I took a look at their other posts. Inconclusive but seems that Bandit was quite happy to apply entirely different standards to those now professed to their own issue with bank charges. IMHO unconstructive comments are best ignored.

Yes it is. They'll know. It's a perfectly acceptable way for an informal citation.

I would just add the point in red:

Seakie, I can appreciate the sentiment and your frustration but for the reasons I have identified I would suggest that this letter will not help your cause. My suggestion is to write simply as follows: Dear Sirs Re: [Reference] Thank you for your letter of dd mmmm yyyy. Your dispute is with the driver of the vehicle at the relevant time, not with me as the keeper. Unless you are able to provide, to me, evidence that I, as keeper, am responsible for the alleged debt and that this alleged debt is an actual debt I will be unable to enter into further correspondence with you. Unless you provide me with the above mentioned evidence, this alleged debt will remain in dispute and I must ask you to cease and desist correspondence with me. Yours faithfully

Yes, a slim one. You need to tell us exactly what was written on the signs and what you read and saw before you parked.

The date of contravention is on the ticket built into it, just not labelled as such. We need to see what's on the reverse of the ticket.

I think you will get no joy if you write to them now. There is no right to appeal until you get an NTO.

PCN not properly served. It has to be affixed or handed to the person appearing to be in control of the vehicle. Being reckelssly thrown at a person is not "handed to".

Fair point. Is it something a stick on "how to identify what sort of ticket you have got" will solve?

Worth asking the council if they have approved of/are aware of this piece of street furniture? If unapproved it all could add up to deception.

What you could do is to nest it eg: Official Tickets/Clamping Local Authority (London) Parking Local Authority (Ex London) Parking Police Trafic Warden Parking TFL Congestion Charge Bus Lane/Yellow Box and Other CCTV Private Parking (Tickets) [by name of PPC] Others Private Parking (Clamped)

So what's the status of the sign on the (presumably) council street furniture. Was it put there by the council? does it have operating times on it? Is there another council car park it could refer to? etc