Thanks Monty No intention of withdrawing my defence. Regarding Default Notice from date of issue to date by which arrears must be paid is exactly 14 days, claimant not allowed for service, also date of issue is Friday before a Bank Holiday Weekend. No real concern about the DN. My original enquiry however was having served an Application to Prove at Trial with my Witness Statement how this will be dealt with when the Trial starts.

When inspecting document at Claimant's Solicitor, they confirm that this was the document they would rely on in court. BankFodder, it has gone this far because I have submitted a full defence when County Court Claim was received. The claimant's solicitor have told me the court will find in their favour and that I should withdraw my defence and settle the matter in full to their client's satisfaction to avoid further costs. Yet the claimant have never supplied a legible copy of the agreement.

Also signature page (which is seperate from agreement) looks suspect. Signature in wrong place and date not in my hand but same writing as whoever signed for bank.

Copy supplied by claimant following CCA request very poor quality some of terms not very clear. Ask claimant 16 months ago if agreement scanned but no response - it was clear from what they had supplied was from a scan. Copies supplied following request for info following receipt of County Court Claim, with allocation questionnaire, with documents supplied under Disclosure and copy inspected by me at claimants solicitor all exactly the same poor quality. Claimants Witness Statement received last week, over 10 days late, is first time they have admitted agreement has been scanned.

Need some advice from someone with experience of a trial situation. Claim I am defending has been allocated to Multi-Track, under standard disclosure claimant indicated that they no longer had the original signed agreement. With my witness statement included an Application to Prove at Trial, regarding the documents they have listed as copy of original signed agreement. Claimant's witness statement indicates agreement was scanned at the time agreement was made and copy is from their computer system and they have been unable to locate the original signed agreement. When this matter reaches trial when would my Application to Prove at Trial be considered. Would it be done prior to trial starting in full? Is claimant required to prove these documents before any trial starts?

If they do send a notice by post - 'serve by post' - that then suggests no 'contrary intention'. This may be a simplistic view but surely sending a notice by post suggests no contrary intention than to serve by post.

The creditor therefore would have to prove they sent or gave the notice by another method other than by post. If you have the original envelope it was delivered in then this would (surely) prove that service was by post.

Don't know if you have this info already, if not hope it helps you out. Blondie40 1. Interpretation Act 1978, Section 7 This states:- "7. Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expressions "give" or "send" or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post." 2. Practice Direction Service of Documents - First and Second Class Mail "With effect from 16 April 1985 the Practice Direction issued on 30 July 1968 is hereby revoked and the following is substituted therefore. 1. Under S7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 service by post is deemed to have been effected, unless the contrary has been proved, at the time when the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post. 2. To avoid uncertainty as to the date of service it will be taken (subject to proof to the contrary) that delivery in the ordinary course of post was effected:- (a) in the case of first class mail, on the second working day after posting; (b) in the case of second class mail, on the fourth working day after posting. "Working days" are Monday to Friday, excluding any bank holiday. 3. Affidavits of service shall state whether the document was dispatched by first or second class mail. If this information is omitted it will be assumed that second class mail was used. 4. This direction is subject to the special provisions of RSC Order 10, rule 1(3) relating to the service of originating process. 8 March 1985 J R BICKFORD SMITH Senior Master Queen's Bench Division

Hi Angel 1 The barcode that appears on the envelope is your postcode and house number or name - or Delivery Point Data for the technical term - in a format that can be read by a machine, thus speeding up sorting.

I'd keep hold of that envelope, you could ask them to prove the actual date of collection by Royal Mail. The purpose of Mailsort is that companies pay less (33p for 1st Class instead of 36p) however the mail has to be pre-sorted either by the companies themselves (unlikely) or the mailing house they use. We used to receive mail from companies un-sorted, it was then sorted by us into relevant postcode areas, ie W1 or W2 etc, bagged and tagged (all W1 mail in one bag) with barcode tag on to identify which postcode it is for, then collected by Royal Mail who would then transfer bags onto relevant lorries destined for that area. Hence no sorting by Royal Mail. In most cases a letter dated 5th of month, would be sorted on 6th of month, (if done in time) collected by Royal Mail on 6th of month, and at the earliest delivered on the 7th. Royal Mail describe Mailsort 1 as next working day delivery however this is based on the day they collect or receive it, does not take account of how long it takes mailing house to sort. Sadly I know, way to much about Mailsort, I'm quite surprised that knowing the importance of a time scale involving default notices companies are using this method. But as you say they only have to show they sent them and we are deemed to have received it. Perhaps its time someone challenged this in court - how they go about it I have no idea - they would need an expert witness from the Royal Mail.

Under provisions of CPR 31.15© you can request refund of any cost incurred, 20p per copy is the rate. They will probably ask you the same so if they have masses of documents you'll probably end up out of pocket.

It probably sat around for a couple of days until they had reached the required "volume" of letters under their Mailsort contract.

Royal Mail 1 is First Class Royal Mail 2 is Second Class Royal Mail M is Third Class (usually 4 to 5 days for delivery) HQ 194 is their Royal Mail ID/Licence number so they can use Mailsort (Useless information about Royal Mail for you - worked at a company that did Direct Mail)

Thanks 42man, info on Amendments very useful

You'll get a formal demand for repayment next, should be dated after 27 Dec. Many banks are getting round envelopes being postmarked or franked with a posting date by using pre-paid ones. Royal Mail Mailsort 1 is next day, Mailsort 2 is 3 days, UK Mail and TNT is 2 to 3 days. Although at this time of year you can probably double that.

Can anyone point me in the direction of a thread in which a default notice from NatWest was posted, I recall seeing one but having done a search have not been able to locate it. Wanted to check the format and then compare to template they have indicated they can supply - when they supply it. Do not recall receiving default notice from them, just a formal demand which is dated 17 days after date they claim a default notice was issued. I do recall in the thread it being pointed out they had allowed 17 days, but format may not have been correct.

When a case eventually goes to trial, which carries more weight, the defence, in my cases submitted some months ago, or the Witness Statement submitted following disclosure by the claimant. If I raise in my Witness Statement and and then in Skeleton argument something that has not been raised in my original defence would the judge allow it.

Latest update - further hearing at court, claimant failed to turn up, DJ not impressed. DJ made following order that I quickly noted down: "It is ordered that: Unless the Claimant by 4pm on xx xxxxxxx xxxx requests in writing allocation to proceed the case is struck out without any further order of the court and Defendant is entitled to apply for judgement." What I need to know now is IF (realise its a big IF) claim is struck out what do I need to do when applying for Judgement. Take it Section 142 of CCA 1974 covers this. What is the best approach. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks for info. In process of defending against claim for loan and overdraft. S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) has thrown up some interesting info. Open student account in 80's, when graduated went to work overseas, account closed as NatWest would not allow account to be operated from overseas so changed bank. Still have letter from branch showing account as closed and acknowledge safe receipt of cheque guarantee card, cheque book and paying-in book which had been destroyed. SAR does not show account being closed. When I returned to UK in early 90's opened new Current Plus account with NatWest, at different branch so different sort code & account number. I know for a fact that I did not have an advantage gold account in 2002 and have statements showing account was always a Current Plus account. They have supplied statements as far back as Oct 2002, but these only show transactions, on all monthly statements supplied at top of each says CURRENT PLUS ACCOUNT. Looks like info they have on me is either incomplete or not accurate.

Had a personal review with them couple of years ago, following which they changed my account - despite my saying I saw no benefit in doing so. Got it changed back. I thought you had to sign something to say you wanted your account upgraded, but they never produced anything - even when I did an SAR.

They have claimed I opened an Advantage Gold current account during 80's.

Thanks for your help, thought it was about mid 1990's. When first launched I think the monthly charge was £6, so may have been early than 1997. Remember constant hassle from tellers whenever went into branch about "upgrading" my account. Worked for company that paid fortnightly by cheque so was a regular visitor for a period - but this was 1993/94.

Does anyone know exactly when NatWest launched their Advantage Gold Current Account. If anyone could confirm approx date (or knows exact date) that would be helpful. Thanks.

Claimant got stay of 1 month, seems documents had been returned for storage by mistake, and claimant not aware of this until compiling docs for disclosure. Judge seemed unimpressed - told them signed agreement crucial to their claim - but allowed them 1 month so now have to wait. He's hoping they don't find anything!!! Claimant mentioned that I had not yet supplied any docs to them, Judge suggested I would comply when they do.

Any ideas on best way to approach this. Should I respond to their request and supply them docs or not. If I don't supply would this harm my defence?