Hi Everyone, I have some interesting developments with regards the debate regarding the end of a contract and getting the other party to remove the data from the CRA’s… I had an old Vodafone default (on a different thread) that I got Vodafone to remove by writing and complaining to them. BUT they merely amended it on my credit file and did not fully remove all info. This is the email I sent their data controller: Dear Ms. Chandler, I am afraid to say we were a bit presumptuous that everything had been sorted out. I spoke to Experian today who informed me that my records had only been amended and data not fully removed. As you are aware, I am afforded principled rights under the Data Protection Act (Data Protection Act), Schedule 1, Part 1 ("The Principles") in relation to the manner in which my data is collated, stored and processed. Of particular note, are Principles 3, 4 and 5: “3. Personal data shall be adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purpose or purposes for which they are processed. 4. Personal data shall be accurate and, where necessary, kept up to date. 5. Personal data processed for any purpose or purposes shall not be kept for longer than is necessary for that purpose or those purposes.” In my case, Vodafone is still processing data after the cancellation of the contract, whether or not this is a simple renewal process of the default flag, daily or by other timing factor. As that contract is no longer in situ, then my written permission has also ceased from the date of cancellation. This is confirmed in Principle 2 of the Data Protection Act, which states: "2. Personal data shall be obtained only for one or more specified and lawful purposes, and shall not be further processed in any manner incompatible with that purpose or those purposes." I emphasise the term "specified and lawful purposes" as in ‘those specified within the contract’, and no more. I also emphasise the term "shall not be further processed". I have taken the matter up with the Credit Reference Agencies, and they had claimed that they had a

Hi guys, I sent my initial SAR letter on the 5th March '07 recorded del and have had no answer at all. I also sent a reminder letter on the 30th March and also no response. Any suggestions on my next move as I do not have statements etc to go straight to a claim? Thanks, Penfold

Hi Priority, Thanks for the reply. Can you (or anyone else) answer me one question that has arisen from another old debt of mine, that may well arise from this one! Issue is simple, the debt was closed off over 6 years old and so the lender comes back and says we do not hold any info (or the CCA) on this anymore because we do not need to. Can they say that if they are still collecting even if via a DCA? Who regulates or watched for the CCA? Is it Trading Standards or because an ACT parliament only? Sorry for my ignorance on this one. Remember we are assuming (and are pretty sure) the debts we NOT sold on. Thanks, Penfold

Priority, Are you saying that even though there are no signed agreements (let's just assume this for now) I cannot ask them for the money I was forced to pay to the DCA's when they did not have any right to enforce the debt? Please let's not get into a moral issue here, but concentrate on the fact that if the debt is "unenforceable" then surely they could not legally pursue me for it especially via DCA's knocking at my door (which is what one of them did!)? My issue is even if all this has been paid and closed I am now more aware of the CCA and the general laws and they acted, how can I say this...Without the right legal paperwork in place...I probably have said that wrong, but that is what I am asking. Or are you saying it does not matter and only the SAR method is a why of recouping some of the money back? Thanks, Penfold

Thanks, That's what I was thinking. Am issuing them with a LBA regarding the breach of the CCA and not supplying the signed agreements. I am also asking for the detailed statements too. Let's see what happens... Penfold

Thanks for that mail. I have a query though if both DCA's are saying they no longer have the files and monies were sent to Nat West surely that means they were acting on behalf of the lender and NOT sold the debt? What do you think on this? Both said in their letters the files were closed and monies were with Nat West? Thanks, Penfold

Thanks Hedgey, Thing is that because I went for the boss I have a real person to deal with on this and so do not want to link too much just yet... Penfold

Hi Hedgey, Ok, I was after NATWEST for forcing me to pay DCA’s with no provable agreement using the CCA method. My suspicion is that they do not have the signed agreements! This was for a CC debt and a business overdraft debt. I want to go after them for both the illegal charges creating the huge debt and also all payments that went to the DCA’s that I should not have been forced to pay if the debt was “unenforceable”. My ploy was to use the CCA agreement method to put them on the back foot then punch for charges as well... Does that clarify any better? Thanks, Penfold

Thanks Hedgey, I was thinking of sedning the following, but was worried it confussed too many issues in one go... Dear XXXXX Re:− Your ref: XXXXX Further to your letter dated XXth March I feel I must stress the point I made in my last letter dated XXth March regarding NatWest/ Royal Bank of Scotland becoming very close to breaching its obligations under Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act. Surely the credit agreements for both these disputed accounts are held on a database somewhere? Please supply these as a matter of urgency. I appreciate your requirement to get a “full briefing” with regards these two accounts, but I do not see the relevance when, in the first instance, all I would like are the credit agreements themselves? From the time it is taking I can only assume that you do not possess these agreements. I will therefore have no option, but to request my data under the Data Protection Act 1998. Since you are trying your best to investigate my accounts there should be no problem in you supplying these for me? Please can you supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to my banking history with your organisation? Alternatively, a complete set of statements for that full period will be acceptable including once the accounts had been transferred to the Debt Collection Agencies. Both the above accounts are now closed, but that should not cause any problem as both were active within the last 6 years. Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you. If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response. I am happy to forward you the statutory maximum fee of £10 should you require it, however, given your “ongoing investigations” I presume you will be receiving a copy of these yourself anyway. I would be happy to collect the Data from my local branch. I look forward to your swift response. Yours sincerely, Views please... Thanks, Penfold

Hi, I have posted on the Natwest board: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/77962-penfold-natwest-rbs.html Could someone please help with timescales and legalities please? Thanks, Penfold

Hi, I recently discovered two old debts I had with Nat West that had been paid off through two different DCA’s. Anyway here is what I have been upto so far: I wrote the initial letters to the DCA’s (both of them) stating the usual: Dear Sir/Madam Re:− Account/Reference Number XXXXXXXXX OR XXXX Reference: XXXXXXXX I no longer acknowledge this alleged past debt. I hereby formally request true copies of the signed agreement referring to the above account number. This is my right under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - your obligation also extends to providing statements of account. I enclose a £1 cheque in payment of the statutory fee. I understand that this should be supplied within 12 working days. In addition please supply a true copy of the deed of assignment. You are reminded that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the CCA 1974. As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defense to any court claim that is subsequently issued. I would also request a statement of all payments made since you took over this debt. In the meantime please be aware that I consider this matter to now be “in dispute”. Yours faithfully Both DCA’s replied to say the files had been passed back to Nat West – How convenient! I decided after some reading on here to approach Fred Goodwin, Group Chief Exec of RBS! Why not go highest first…Bear in mind these are two very old debts, but because of the DCA’s were kind of active within the last few years. Here is my next letter: Sir Fred Goodwin, The Royal Bank of Scotland Group plc Business House F, Level 2 RBS, Gogarburn, P O Box 1000 Edinburgh EH12 1HQ Dear Sir Goodwin Re:− Credit Card ref: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX Further to my letter dated 5th March to XXXXX Debt Recovery Limited, please see the enclosed photocopied reply. So I am now sending you the same letter for a response. I no longer acknowledge this alleged debt. I hereby formally request true copies of the signed agreement referring to the above account number. This is my right under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - your obligation also extends to providing statements of account. I enclose a £1 cheque in payment of the statutory fee. I understand that this should be supplied within 12 working days. In addition please supply a true copy of the deed of assignment to Equidebt Limited in order to allow them to process the debt. You are reminded that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the CCA 1974. As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defense to any court claim that is subsequently issued. I would also request a statement of all payments made with regards this debt whether directly to you or to Moorcroft Limited. In the meantime please be aware that I consider this matter to now be “in dispute” once more. Yours faithfully Well within a few days I got a letter back stating: Dear…. Thank you for your letter dated XX March 2007 addressed to Sir Fred Goodwin, our Group Chief Executive. In view of your comments, we have asked for a full briefing from those involved. Once this is received, a formal response will be sent to you from the bank’s executive. We will aim to get a response to you as soon as we can but we also want to make sure that a thorough investigation takes place. If, for any reason, there looks like being a delay, we will, of course, write to you again to explain why. If you have any queries in the meantime, please feel free to contact us. Yours sincerely, Now what I would like to know is when will Nat West/ RBS be in default on my request for the agreements of these two accounts? Will it be from when the DCA’s got the letters or when I had to rewrite to RBS instead? Also please advise how many days am I required to wait? The initial letters state 12 working days. Thanks, Penfold

I would say it depends on how old the default is. Mine was from 2003 and the way they worded the letter sounds like they could not find the agreement and so were just fobbing me off and getting rid of me. Why not try, write to same guy above and his address is: Vodafone Ltd, Pembroke House, Banbury Business Park, Aynho Road, Adderbury, Oxon, OX17 3NS. I suggest posting your letter here first so we can see if we can tweak it. I would ask for your agreement to see what you signed...Something along those lines. Problem is I cannot help you too much as I wrote completely the wrong letter and they even sent my £1 cheque back! I would not mention that you know they did this for someone else in the first letter... Hold back an ace until you need it! Hope that helps, Penfold

lol thanks for that...

Gizmo, The post was not an attack on you! Merely stating there are grey areas here and it appears anything is possible. If Greedy Bank says I owe £3000, but most of this is made up of illegal charges then why should the other creditors in my IVA not benefit? Or if the IVA is settled myself to benefit? In my case I will be only persuing the creditors to remove credit file info, but I do believe (maybe foolishly) that if I really went for them some would give in and return unfair charges... That is a debate for another day anyway, Penfold

Hi, It really depends where they are in the IVA...beginning, middle or end! I am at the beginning of mine, however am selling my house to pay off as full and final settlement. Then going for the banks. I did ask the question in one of my threads and got conflicting replies. One reply I private message I got may help you... I read in one of your posts that you had an IVA and were trying to claim back money. Can you please let me know if you managed to do this or where you are with it? Yes you can !! Your IVA is made up of money that you oew your creditors, in this case your creditors owe YOU money from there unlawful charges.. I have claimed from the Halifax £1916 which they settled out of court.. Halifax are one of the 'Main' creditors in relation to my IVA.. they didnt argue or question it, in fact they sent payment to my IVA supervisor so it comes off the overall debt.. There is nothing more pleasing than the HALIFAX paying off my debts for me :grin: Reason I ask is I am trying to do a similar thing, but have been told on my thread (type in responsible lending) that I have acknowledged the debts Legally via the IVA therefore people do not think I can go the CCA route to say the debts were illegal in the first place... Who ever told you this is talking nonsense... It wouldnt suprise me if they work for an IVA company!! On the contrary i am also in the process of claiming from the Nationwide, Capital One Credit Card and 3 x Halifax Credit cards... Cap 1 and Nationwide are not involved in my IVA and so they will pay back the money to me and not IVA.. It would be really helpful to know what you have done and where you got with it, You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.. the money you are asking to be returned to you is rightfully yours.. Feel free to ask for assistance when you need to, and go back to that thread where they say you cant claim and put them straight.. Hope this helps, Penfold

Hi, Sorry to hear of your situation. I have to say I agree with you that trying to bankrupt you seems very strange as you have no assets...Also it is not good for you and the future. For debt advice I would look at the Motley Fool website (edit) their debt section is fantastic and you will get good support and help there. This site is brilliant don't get me wring, but your situation would be better dealt with there I believe. Hope it helps and good luck, Penfold

Hi, You might find this very useful reading: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/20118-default-hell.html?highlight=vodaphone+address Also I have have just had a Vodafone default removed using this method and being ignorant (me that is) I did not even realise an airtime contract was not under the CCA 1974! But they still gave in... See the Vodaphone default (http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/telecoms-mobile-fixed-broadband/74401-vodafone-default.html ) thread. Good luck, Penfold

Hi, Just to let you know when I got home there was a letter from Vodafone and it reads: Dear …. RE: Billing account number ….. Thank you for your recent letter in reference to the above account that you held with Singlepoint 4 U Ltd I would advise that the Vodafone Limited airtime agreement is not a regulated product for the purposes of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. (as pointed out by Buzby) Vodafone Limited is therefore not obliged to send you the documents you requested. Furthermore, Vodafone Limited will not provide the documents that you are demanding nor are we bound by the timeframes that you have set out. (Surely they must provide an agreement if asked for it?) However, in light of the fact that you appear to be concerned about a default placed on your credit reference record as a consequence of information provided to credit reference agencies, we have reviewed this matter and would advise that due to the issues encountered regarding your address change at the time, and the fact you did not receive the invoices in a timely manor, we have removed the default and the late payments recorded from your credit file. (I do not remember any issues with not receiving invoices on time, nor a change of address, but hey if they want to make an excuss up to remove it fine by me!) Should you require any further assistance with this matter, please contact me on 01295 818131 Yours sincerely, Nick Southam Quality Assurance So guys there is hope at the end of the tunnel and I did not even have to send a few letters for this one! Admittedly this debt is from 2003 and they probably could not find any records, the debt was settled so they thought “sod it get rid of him!” Good luck guys, Penfold

So do you feel that the other approach of: Default settled and so account closed, T&C's therefore no longer in existance so ask them to simply remove the credit information as no permission granted anymore under the DPA. CRA's will fight if you talk to them directly, but the supplier may cave as they cannot prove you gave permission to continue to supply info to CRA's nor permission to the CRA's to continue suppling info for the next 6 years to everyone else? Also if they do not supply the original agreement then they cannot even prove you gave permission to supply info (under the DPA) originally can they? Thansk, Penfold

Buzby, Thanks for that, you are right and so I have made an ass of myself, however, surely the same principles of the letters apply? OK you cannot say CCA blah blah blah, but you can say please produce my original agreement? The default notice? or are you saying that is not covered as not under the CCA? Thanks for clarifing this in advance, Penfold

Thanks for that post...very interesting, are you saying when you sign up to a mobile phone contract you are not signing a CCA? I was very much under the impression this was the case. Penfold

This is exactly what Surlybonds arguement was. Many people I think jumped on it without fully understanding what was being said. I agree fully, I give permission for Greedy bank to process my data, BUT I did not agree to continued processing. Default settled and account closed. Therefore T&C null and void and hence no longer allow permission to process. When did I give CRA's permission to process my data....ahh....NEVER! Who made them god? No-one...people stand up and take note as they cannot get away with this. No-one questioned them for so long they just think they can take the law into their own hands and make things up....Research and please show me where this "principle" is wrong or flawed? Thanks, Penfold

Hi, I am trying to get Vodaphone to remove a default they slapped on me several years ago. Try reading and using: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/11659-how-get-your-default.html I found it interesting and am currently using it. Good luck, Penfold

Hi, Just looking for some advice please. I had a very old debt (like 10 odd years old) that was being serviced by Equidebt Limited. Cut a long story short that was settled in the end last year. I would like to now find out if they were legally allowed to service that debt via the CAA route. I sent Equidebt a letter on 5th March and got a reply today! Wow quick and it said: “With reference to your recent letter, the contents of which have been duly noted. After giving consideration to this matter, we confirm that we have returned the file back to Woolwich Plc. and marked our records as closed. Please send all future correspondence to them direct. Yours sincerely,” Now a couple of things here, does that mean that they were only collecting for Woolwich and all monthly payments were being sent to Woolwich? Also should I merely send another CCA request letter to Woolwich? Thanks, Penfold

No I did not, my wife simply said she would leave the country with the children. No doctor needed trust me on that one! Problem was she left the finances to me all these years and I hid the statements etc so she never really knew the full story! Ok, but they have access to figures as well why not look at them too? Is that not “responsible”? That tells a story especially if things are going wrong… That is a very interesting point indeed, however, are you aware that their are credit cards out there that do not allow you to use ladbrokes.com or williamhill.com because they are gambling sites! Now that is responsible lending! I do not remember which ones they are, but I remember trying a few years ago and I was not allowed! Now that is being "Responsible" After IVA has gone through I will try and no doubt be fobbed off and I am not trying to make a buck. Merely not allow the same thing to happen to anyone else. All I am saying it that the internet has made lots of things too easy, including gambling and the Government or FSA or someone should step in and say online gambling with other peoples money is not possible…