Hi Gingerheid, Thanks for your response. Firstly, being honest you are smack bang correct and lots of things could have gone other ways. But they did not and the creditors knew they would get nothing out of making us bankrupt. At that time when we were trying to get the IVA through the redemption penalty meant that they would not get anything and a judge would not “chuck” us out of our home with 2 young children! So you are right I should shut up and forget the whole thing and put it behind us and move forward, which is what we were going to do. But then I am now thinking, why should I? Is it not about time someone published/ exposed the “pyramid structure” that you so aptly described? It is merely creditors taking advantage and paying the numbers game knowing that overall they are “quid’s in” and always will be. I may not get anywhere, but then a judge may, just may see what I am trying to say. I did not steal to do what I did. I borrowed and if a lender sees statement after statement of gambling transactions, don’t you think they should say something or stop offering more money? Just because I made every minimum payment does that mean I am not in trouble? Does it mean I am not snowballing a debt? I am currently talking to a few litigation lawyers on this matter and if they see any point of sense in trying this… I will keep this posted. Penfold

Gizmo, do you or anyone else have any idea what or where I should be getting those figures from? As I am attacking from a completely different angle I do not know of anyone trying this before. I have no idea what would be reasonable? What is the cost emotionally and socially of facing a huge amount of debt, having to go into an IVA and then settle it by selling your home because you cannot go bankrupt? Ideas would be appreciated... Penfold

Another paragraph to add goes like this: "Responsible Lending was also discussed by the National Consumer Council's address to the British Bankers Association Annual Conference 2004. This very interesting report specifically discusses Overindebtedness and evidence of irresponsible lending including the transfers of credit card balances and unsolicited credit card cheques. The NCC wanted a Consumer Credit Directive for Responsible Lending. Were RBS present at this conference? Were any of these implimented as this was prior to my application with MINT?"

Do you mean CCA request and then complain letter seperately? Also I will be adding a bit about the NNC report done for the British Bankers Association Annual COnference 2004...very interesting reading! Penfold

Hi, This is a draft letter I would like to send as soon as the IVA is settled. Please can you guys rip it apart to help me make it better? address address address address 05/03/2007 Complaints Department, MINT Loans, 120 Moorgate, Rotherham, S60 2UA Dear Sirs, RE: Credit Card number XXXXXXXXXXXX I hereby formally request true copies of the signed agreement referring to the above account number. This is my right under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - your obligation also extends to providing statements of account. I enclose a £1 cheque in payment of the statutory fee. I understand that this should be supplied within 12 working days. As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defense to any court claim that is subsequently issued. As well as the above I would like to know what your lending practices are under section 13.1 of the Banking Code referring to Financial Assessment and Security? The reason for asking for an explanation is that at the time of the original application I was not only addicted to gambling, but also hugely indebt already. The Banking Code 2003 says that “Before we lend you any money or increase your overdraft, credit card limit, or other borrowing, we will assess whether we feel you will be able to repay it.” Now the Banking Code Guidance notes for subscribers 2003 it then states “This assessment should include looking at one or more of the following. The customer’s income and financial commitments How they have handled their finances in the past Information from credit reference agencies and, with the customer’s permission, others such as lenders, the customer’s employer and landlord Information the customer provides including information to prove their identity and why they want to borrow the money Credit assessment techniques, such as credit scoring Any security provided” Please advise me, which methods were used to allow for “Responsible Lending” and coming up with a credit limit of £19,200 based on someone with debts of around £80,000 at the time? What references were taken up and please also supply me with the original application form print out from the internet. The main issue here is not if I spent the money offered, but why it was offered in the first place? I could not spend what I did not have and hence my personal situation could not get any worse. By your irresponsible lending you directly added £20,000 to my personal debt, which equates to about a fifth of my end debt at the IVA stage. As you will be aware my wife and I had to go into an IVA and then settle it by selling our home as we could not maintain the payments on that either. I have spoken with the Banking Code Helpdesk and the Financial Ombudsman Helpdesk and both have advised me to complain directly to you in the first instance. I am asking for compensation for the irresponsible lending practices you used to offer me such a large limit without fully looking at my whole financial picture and hence the following personal stress, strain and eventual loss of my home. Yours faithfully, Penfold

Hi Gizmo, Thanks for that and it is what I suspected. But please note in my case the IVA will have been settled by the time any windfall or compensation will be received. Under the terms of an IVA once settled it is settled and the creditors cannot reclaim extra money. In my case the snowballing debt caused me to go into an IVA so if irresponsible lending is to blame then I feel I have a strong case to be compensated for what I have lost and the stress and strain to my family. I would like help/ advice on how to go about proving that money was lent irresponsibly and I feel that is the hardest thing to do...I will keep searching though. Penfold

consumer helpline 0845 080 1800

I called the helpline on the website and the lady I spoke to said she could not give advice I merely went round the houses to find out how the complaints were going and she gave a little info...Try it yourself and post the response you get. Would be interested to find out. Penfold

Also surely people asking for a refund of illegal charges is the same? You paid the charge therefore why should you get money back? What about people claiming on closed/ settled accounts, same situation you paid therefore acknowledged the debt. Are you saying that by putting the debts in an IVA I am legally confirming them, whereas the above examples have not? If so then that is highly unfair in the legal system. I was in big trouble and rather than running away I tried to orgainse a way out. Surely that is trying to act responsibly, all be it a bit late, so why should I be punished to trying to do the right thing? I still believe a Judge would look at the bigger picture if the creditors will not... Penfold

That is also my point

Are you basically saying that all debts included on the IVA (which of course would have been all debts) are now non contestable under the CCA route? I spoke to the Financial Ombuds and they said I could go to them after the IVA was settled on the irresponsible lending side, but I have 3 old debts that were included in the IVA that were with DCA that I am trying the CCA route with. Am I wasting my time then? I was told by the IP to put into the IVA ALL debts and so if I find out later that the debts were not contractual because of the CCA route (for example) there is nothing I can do? Please advise as I now feel a lot worse...Is there not a chance that the DCA's and even the Banks will not cross reference or even realise that? Thanks, Penfold

I agree with you, but is it worth pursuing to find if the debts are legal in the first place? By the way last time I checked my credit file on the Court Info it showed: Date: 27/07/2005 Case Number: nothing Court Name: Luton Judgement: £0 Name: mine DOB: nothing Satisfied: Nothing If this is how the IVA shows then there is nothing on my file anyway. Or does it merely mean any new creditors will not seeit or will they search in a different place? Thanks, Penfold

No you are right Tiglet and they will deal with the complaint. The lady I spoke to said they are getting more and more irresponsible lending complaints each month and some are being upheld. I must complain to the lender first. I will work on a letter and post for opions in due course. Thanks, Penfold

Hi Tiglet, I thought they were only for FSA case and CCA does not come under the FSA? Thanks, Penfold

Hi all, From what I can see searching around section 13.1 of the Banking Code: "Before we lend you any money or increase your overdraft, or other borrowing, we will assess whether we feel you will be able to repay it." Would help me, snag is it looks like it is upto the banks and no other rules are set out about it. What Joke, if your ID is ok they can lend you money no rules...surely this cannot be right??? Penfold

Thanks Annie and the rest of you for the support. If we do not continue to maintain the IVA payments then the IP will have no choice, but to go to bankruptcy. This is not an option due to my job (and I would lose it if I go the B route!) so as we had a decent enough amount of equity in the property that would equate to 1/2 the payments over the 5 years we felt they would accept and the creditors did. As I said before they know they have messed up and are trying to get what they can and nothing more. The more I think about it the more I feel someone has to take this to court if no-one has already. Banks cannot give moeny out without proper checks and control. Are newsagents allowed to sell alcohol to people if they just say they are 18? If in doubt ask for ID. Surely the same shoudl apply to credit, just because I have 10 cards/ loans and all are paid ontime it does not mean I am ok, also what about income to debt ratios etc? Surely the banks know that lots of people take new cards out to transfer balances around. Wrong as it is combined with the problem I had was just snowballing into a nightmare. I have to say the IVA arrangement and now the settlement is fair and I will be paying about £0.10 in the £1, which is practically unheard of these days. So should I shut up and accept I got a good deal or should I go for jugular and risk nothing as the judgement has already been passed last year so the creditors cannot change their minds, the new settlement offer was accepted by all and again I have written proof so I have nothing to lose by trying to get them to admit fault and compensate me. I hope someone can give me some angles to explore as I do feel quite strongly about all this now. A few other points regarding MINT and others that just give large limits out: 1) Is their ¼ page reference to the CCA 1974 posted with the card legal? I thought there had to be my signature as well as theirs etc? It was online applied, but surely no legislation has come in since 1974 with regards the CCA and prior to 2003-4 when most of my cards were taken out? 2) Am I dreaming or is there some kind of law/ code with regards responsible lending? Say Banking Code or FSA directive? 3) I have decided I will go after MINT on the basis of the way they just accepted my application and gave me that huge limit straight away without any heightened checks. Obviously apart form righting the debt off I want to go after them for compensation for the impact theirs (as well as other lenders) flippant actions have cost me dear! Is there any kind of compensation guide or am I supposed to just work figures out for myself? 4) I know many of you reading this will say I spent the money, BUT they lent it. Therefore morally I guess we are both at fault, but is this about morals OR about the law of the country and if they ignored their responsibilities in order to make money? 5) Does anyone know what type of timescales I need to give with regards going straight to court re the compensation claim? Or should I go for viod credit agreement etc first? 6) You may be interested in a report written by the National Consumer Council made at the British Bankers Association Conference 2004. See http://www.ncc.org.uk/pressinfo/BBA_Deirdre.pdf I do not know their powers or much about them, but it clearly talks about my situation… It talks about the “overindebted”, “Evidence of irresponsible lending” both pre and post contractual and what the NCC wants to be done. Does anyone know anymore about this or how I can find out if anything was done? I know there was a white paper in 2006 for the CCA but that would be after my applications and so would not apply in my case. There is also another interesting articles from the DTI: http://www.dti.gov.uk/files/file23663.pdf which talks about possible changes. This was done in 2004, but does anyone know if it was implemented and what Act or Law or amendment it was? Thanks, Penfold

Hi, I have dig out a very old Woolwich debt, which if my memory serves me correctly was sold/ transferred to Equidebt somewhere round 2002 ish. Anyway I remember asking them then about details of the debt and not getting much joy, but then things have changed somewhat since that year! So can I send Equidebt the following (picked up from other posts) or do I need to contact Woolwich who will have no idea on this I am sure...? Also can I merely request all payments made to be refunded? Also can I say it is in dispute if they have been fully paid now? Thanks, Penfold Equidebt Limited, Equity House, Ettington Road, Wellesbourne, Warwickshire, CV35 9GA Dear Sir/Madam Re:− Account/Reference Number XXXXXXX (Woolwich) I do not acknowledge this alleged debt. I hereby formally request true copies of the signed agreement referring to the above account number. This is my right under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - your obligation also extends to providing statements of account. I enclose a £1 cheque in payment of the statutory fee. I understand that this should be supplied within 12 working days. In addition please supply a true copy of the deed of assignment. You are reminded that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the CCA 1974. As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defense to any court claim that is subsequently issued. I would also request a statement of all payments made since you took over this debt. In the meantime please be aware that I consider this matter to now be “in dispute”. Yours faithfully

Hi Annie, Thanks for the reply. With regards the above, can I claim charges back if I am not fully paying them back in the first place? Now I think of it I am not so sure. I still would love someone to let me know the stance with regards the "Responsible Lending" which is no all paperwork these banks send out. Unfortunately bankruptcy is not an option because of the job I do. So yes full and final settlement is the best I can hope for and start again. I can try after the settlement to get rid of the defaults based on ending of the contracts as is discussed elsewhere on the site, but I am now thinking that is it, unless one of the legal guys can give me any other angles... Thanks, Penfold

Yes but the rest of the file would say the outstanding debt and therefore the risk based on income? Or do they not want to know that info? Thanks, Penfold

While waiting for other responses, I had an after thought, is it worth me checking that all the creditors that have the right and legal Consumer Credit Agreements for the debts? If they don't then surely all of this is irrelevant anyway and the debt is illegal? Again I read this somewhere on the site. Maybe I am jumping way before I can crawl on this... Penfold

Thanks guys for such quick responses. I was on around £40,000, but my point is if they looked at the credit files they would see "bad risk" written all over it even if no adverse there... As for a Judges opinion, I thought they needed to judge on law not morality (read it somewhere) and so surely an addiction means you are not nessesarily in sound state. Not trying to make excuses, but would like them to go to court to argue their point of giving that amount and they are not alone...had £4000 starting credit limits and at the end practically all cards were at least £10k apart from MINT being double from the start. As for SAR's what are they and will they not effect the agreed settlement if I ask right now? We are in process of selling not done yet although all creditors have agreed and we have letter from IP to confirm this. Penfold PS On a side note also kicked smoking on 12th September! over 20 a day!

Further to my first ever message in the “Welcome Forum” I have plucked up the courage to post my first thread. Embarrassing as my story is and maybe a lot of you out there will think “he brought it all on himself” there may just be a point in my situation that may help others in the future if not me… Without going into too much detail my wife and I developed a huge amount of debt over the last 4 -5 years. At first due to the jobs we had this was not a problem, but then situations change and suddenly instead of dealing with a small amount of debt we decided to “borrow from Paul to pay John”. Basically out debt snowballed and because we were such good payers (never missed any minimum payments) we were accepted wherever we applied. I must point out at this stage that I developed a gambling addiction that helped increase the debts dramatically. I must also clarify that these were not cash withdrawals to go down the “bookies”, but online transactions via Ladbrokes and William Hill and so showed up on credit cards statements. It all came to a head last year when my wife found out the extent of our debt and threaten to leave with our two young sons! So I got help and kicked the habit, unfortunately there was no way to pay the debts off. I searched for a solution not wanting to run from my responsibilities to my creditors finding that my only option was an IVA. We managed to get a proposal accepted and this went on for a year. In that time you are all aware of the interest rate rises and the impending one to come and so our carefully though out budget was not working and the IVA repayments were going to go up at the end of this year. We decided to contact the creditors again, via the IP, and they agreed to allow us to sell our house and release all funds as full and final settlement. So problem solved and just restart again from scratch, right? Well actually no, we have defaults from all creditors, an IVA showing on our credit file and so we are still looking at a while before we can save enough money to buy again and even if we do we will be crucified by the mortgage company because of our history. Ok so my reason for writing this in the first place now….I feel that the credit card companies breached the “Responsible lending” clauses of the banking code. They saw a regular payer and completely ignored where the money was going. Also they did not look at the credit files to see that there was a huge amount of debt and it was getting bigger each month. Here are the points I would like to discuss now you have some background on me and my situation: 1) As a desperate measure towards the end I applied for more and more credit cards to transfer balances and try to buy time. One example of what I am talking about above is MINT. They offered me….are you ready for this?.....£19,2000 as a starting credit limit! This is to a man with around £80K worth of debt at this point. That is without any employment/ income checks. How is that “Responsible Lending” 2) Most of the credit card company’s slapped defaults on our credit file as soon as they heard we were doing an IVA. Most without even a payment being missed. Is that normal or fair? 3) Older cards of ours kept increasing the limits at regular intervals, again never checking income, never asking any questions about the regular withdrawals to gambling sites, what they did do is charge for cash withdrawals even though these were online transactions! 4) When we submitted the IVA for approval did noone at these big banks look at the feasibility of interest rate rises etc and that we may be just delaying bankruptcy? I believe they just wanted to get whatever they could out of us, because they knew they had done wrong in giving us money so easily! 5) HSBC did a lovely thing….When we organised the IVA we had to open a new account where we did not have any debt. So we opened an Abbey account and cancelled all DD’s and SO’s from our HSBC account so no more transaction could go through. HSBC still put 2 card payments for their card after this and then slapped a default on us for that account being overdrawn and including the IVA! 6) My argument now is that we were definitely not lent money “Responsively” and so we were driven into an IVA which has ended up costing us our home. So is this “Responsible Lending” or “Irresponsible Borrowing”? Lots of you will say I bought this on my family as addicted/ stupid or naive person, BUT I argue that the greedy banks “love” people like me and take advantage of us every single day! If any of you looked at the statements of any of the credit cards in question you could see a mile off there were serious problems coming, instead of helping/ controlling the situation they just lent more and more money. Your thoughts good or bad will be truly appreciated. If any of you feel I have a case how should I go about claiming and what would I be able to claim for? Thanks and sorry for such a long post, Penfold

Hi guys, First post so bear with me please. My wife and I spent the last 6 years struggling by with our young family. Without going to into too much boring detail it became apparent last year that we were just snowballing our debt and so we went for an IVA. It was accepted by our creditors and this has been going fine until this year where we realised that selling the house and paying the IVA off (on a new agreement) would be the best way to start again. We made mistakes, realised these and have tried to be responsible with our creditors. This is all well and good, but now my point and why I was hunting for an answer.... We will need to save for 12-18 months to get enough money for a new deposit, but we might as well not bother since all creditors slapped defaults against our names even though they all agreed the IVA route. Are there any threads or advice on defaults once they have been settled in full and how to get rid of them so we can in reality start afresh? Thanks, Penfold