Hi all I am being taken to Court by a DCA for a credit card account and I just need a point of law clarifying. I have received a reconstituted CCA as part of a section 78 request, I received the same reconstituted agreement as part of a SAR. I have now sent a CPR request trying to get a copy of the original agreement Can the DCA continue with their Court proceedings with the reconstituted agreement or do they have to provide the original in Court? Thanks in advance Gemby:?:

Hi Silverfox Is there a court ruling (i think Wilson) where it was ruled that the prescribed terms had to be on the same side as the signatures?

Hi Can anyone clarify section 61 signing of documents Does a cca need to have the prescribed terms on the same side as the signature to be compliant, or is it the case that the prescribed terms can be on the reverse side or contained in a separate document refered to in the agreement? Thanks in advance

Hi Frettful The loan was regulated.

dpac rob & jason Natwest cannot take court action against a loan if they do not have a copy of the agreement. The court case would simply become a case of their word against yours. dpac, if the dates do not stack up on your agreement there must be some kind of mistake (who's fault?). If it is not a true copy then they cannot enforce it in court. rob, if you stop making payments they will send in the debt collectors, but again without a copy of the agreement, debt collectors are powerless. Natwest are a massive organisation who dont know their ar#e from their elbow. One department doesn't know what the other departments do. Use this to your advantage. jason, i replied to your question on my other thread, i hope this was of help. Good luck all. Let me know if i can help further Gemby

Hi Jason mnm The loan was for £30k and the overdraft was for £1000 or so. Whilst i admitted to the loan amount i argued that the overdraft was made up of illegal bank charges. I counterclaimed for these bank charges, which with statutory interest, amounted to £7500. I also claimed for restitutionary damages, which could have turned my claim into far more than natwest were claiming from me. All through the proceedings natwest have tried to bully me into submission, but i have always fought back. They failed to produce the loan agreement and when i asked their solicitor why they hadn't sent a copy, he let slip that they could not locate it at that time. I then sent an application to the court to make them disclose this document and two days before the hearing their solicitor called me to make a deal. He offered a full and final settlement figure of £10000 or a monthly repayment of £150 over ten years (totaling £18000) I said that to stop me from going to the court hearing that natwest must agree to drop thier case and then i would drop my counterclaim. ie shake hands and walk away. He then phoned back and said that natwest would agree to this but would reserve the right to persue the debt at a later date. I thought long and hard about this and decided that the only way to get them off my back for good was to make an offer of full and final settlement. I responded with an offer of £1000 which they have accepted. I now have until 31 July to make this payment and then all action will cease. I am still not sure why they have settled for this, it may be that they were scared that my bank charges claim would set a presidence , or it may be that they didn't have a copy of my loan agreement and knew that they could not enforce the loan without it. NATWEST HELPFUL BANKING!!! After more than 30 years of loyal banking with natwest, i hit some financial hardship, when i asked them for help they suggested i go bankrupt!!! I have been battling for the last two years to avoid this, and with much help from this forum, i am on now the road to recovery. Natwest is a big organisation and quite often they do not know their ar#e from their elbow. Use that to your advantage and keep them running in circles. Gemby

We have settled out of court for a fraction of what was owed. For some reason Natwest bent over backwards to do a deal. Not sure why exactly but i think it was because they could not produce the loan agreement.

Hi How are you getting on? I just wanted to let you know that i have just settled out of court with natwest for substantially less than i owed.

I have been going through a court case with Natwest for the last ten months. They are chasing me for an outstanding loan and a small overdraft. In the court papers i issued a counterclaim for bank charges. To date Natwest have failed to provide me with a copy of the original credit agreement relating to the loan. It appears that they cannot find it. Next Tuesday we have a court hearing where i have applied to force Natwest into disclosing the loan agreement. Today i have had lengthy discussions with their solicitor trying to hatch a deal. The options are:- 1. Make a partial settlement to wipe off the debt 2. Both parties cancel their claims and walk away. (Natwest reserving the right to persue the debt at a later date) My question is, is it im my interests to go ahead with the court hearing next week, get Natwest to admit to not having the credit agreement, and having the loan declared uninforceable? Can they still chase me at a later date if they find the agreement? Or do i make the partial settlement and get rid of them once and for all? Thanks Gemby

If you think you can turn things around and offer a payment plan further down the line, it may well be worth talking to your creditors to arrange some sort of deal. It is not in their interests to seek court action. Natwests solicitors have to go back to Natwest with any proposals you put forward. You could ask for a payment plan with a 3 month deferred payment for example. They may require you to sign a consent order though which will legally tie you to any agreement. Alternetively you will need to come up with a defence or counterclaim. Is there any chance you were mis sold the loan? Were the bank fully aware of your financial position? Did they know about your other creditors? I think the bank charges counterclaim could be your best route. It may even be worth you writing to the solicitors to explain that you intend to counterclaim for bank charges unless they are more willing to negatiate.

OK First things first, you only need to send back the aknowledgment of service at the moment (you can even do it online) this will give you 28 days from the date of service to respond to the rest of it. I am still fairly confident about the bank charges issue (i have to be), as the supreme court suggested other avenues for the oft to investigate. They wouldnt have said that if it were not the case. Also Martin Lewis at moneysavingexpert.com has employed a QC to look into other avenues available, they are currently investigating the consumer credit act for possible breaches. As my case is not due to be heard until June i am hoping that we will have some answeres by then. This is an issue which could go on for years so either my case will be put on hold or a judge may make a decision an the case (hopefully in my favour). We took out our loan in June 2008, it was a consolidation loan to pay off previous loan and overdraft. By September 2008 we could no longer afford it as the credit crunch had hit my business. I am investigating whether the bank acted irresponsibly in granting us a loan which we could not afford just 4 months later, and i am using that as part of the defence. Natwest should have sent you a default notice and then a termination notice of your accounts. If they havent this may be a possible line of defence as they have not complied with pre action protocols. My advice (only my opinion) would be to send in the acknowlegment of service, by all means ask for a subject access request (you never know what it may throw up), then relax over Xmas. You then have 28 days to see what the OFT are going to do about the bank charges issue (they have promised a response in December sometime). If they do persue other avenues then start a counterclaim for your charges. Alternetively you could file a defence on the basis of the SAR if anything crops up. All this will at least buy you time. The banks have a duty to try and settle out of court so there will be plenty of opportunity for you to reach an agreement with them should you wish to do so. Chin up!!!

Hi I am going through exactly the same. I couldnt pay my natwest loan and two current account overdrafts. My bank manager didnt want to know and the credit managment services department told me i should consider bankrupcy. So much for a caring bank eh? Shakespeare Putsman Solicitors gave us the same ultimatum, sign a consent order promising to pay £500pm or face a CCJ. Whilst contemplating what to do the court papers arrived. If you sign the acknowledgment of service paper and send it back to the court it will allow you 28 days to decide your options. Upon replying to the court papers i didnt admit to any of the amounts quoted (if you admit to the loan amount the solicitors can ask for judgment to be made on that amount) i then filed a defence and counterclaim for bank charges, stating i couldnt agree to the figures quoted as they were made up of unfair charges. At each stage natwest solicitors have played hardball so you will have a fight on your hands if you proceed with any court action. I am currently requesting a list of documents from natwest to support my case which has a court date for June 2010. The recent Supreme Court ruling on bank charges has not been good, and natwest solicitors have written inviting me to throw in the towel, however i am now quoting Regulation 5 as my defence and watching with bated breath to see what the OFT decide to do. If i can be of further help just let me know as i understand what you are dealing with, but most of all dont let the Bas###ds grind you down!!!

They havn't closed the account i have just found a statement dated 23/11/09 so they must still have it as current! I think i have just answered my own question. Thanks Gemby

Hi dx This is all to do with a pending court case. Natwest are taking me to court because i could not afford my loan repayments. I requested the CCA back in October and to date they have not delivered. Do i have a case for unenforceability or are they correct in stating the request has to be on a current agreement? I could look to do a SAR but all documents to be used in court need to be served by this Wednesday.

Hi Can anyone tell me whether i can make a CCA request for a loan application form on a loan account that has defaulted? I have made a request under section 77/78 of the CCA 1974.to Natwest. They have told me that "this section only applies to request made within the currency of an agreement. The request was in fact made outside the currency of the agreement". Is this correct or are they still governed by th 12+2 days rule?

Hi all I need help with my defence. Natwest are taking me to court for non payment of a personal loan. In the court papers i counterclaimed for unfair bank charges and all was going well until the high court judgment last week. Today i received a letter from Natwests solicitors basically telling me that my defence has been blown out of the water, and that unless we reach a settlement on the loan they will apply to have Summary Judgment. I need to give them standard disclosure of my defence documents by 16th December. What is the current situation on bank charges? What documents do i need to use if my bank charges claim stands any chance of success? What are the options available? All advice greatly received. Gemby

Thanks for that Mystery1 As clear as mud!

Hi Can someone please explain regulation 3 to me? I have written to my creditors requesting a CCA I have had two responses which state that under Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit Regulations 1983, they are not obliged to provide a signed copy of the agreement. Is this correct or are they trying to pull the wool over my eyes? Am i correct in thinking that if they do not provide a signed copy that the agreement is unenforceable? Gemby

Thanks for that. I need to state my case for reclaiming bank charges by this wednesday, should i claim that they are unlawful and unjust, or should i claim that i have paid them under a "mistake"?

Hello Can anyone give me an update on the bank charges test case? I have read the article in the consumer forums homepage but i ned clarification as i am currently in litigation with natwest and i need to get my facts right. Have the house of lords made a decision on charges? Are they unlawful or paid under a "Mistake"? Any info gratefully recieved. Gemby

Hi Martin3030 and Yourbank Thanks for your postings So let me get this straight, UTTC came into force in 1995, and as such i should be able to claim charges back till then, however NW hold records back untill 1992. Does this mean i could claim charges back from 1992, or are the charges subject to UTTC ?

Ok sea-sidelady Thanks for that Gemby

Hey Donnaeast well done!!! Anyone getting one over on Natwest is good news to me! After 30 years of banking with them i expected to be looked after but they only want to look after themselves. I have now counterclaimed for charges dating back to 1995 plus interest, plus overdraft interest, plus restitutionary damages. It could amount to a large sum of money......if it comes off. Forget what Wino said....Spend it all at once!!! And enjoy!!! I,ll keep you posted Gemby

Hi Martin3030 Thanks for that I am slowly getting my head around this. I have written to Natwest solicitors and requested charges back to 1st January 1995. I am sure they will correct me to 1st July. Thanks again Gemby

Hi Can anyone advise me on how far back bank charges can be claimed? What is the theory behind claiming back to 1995? What is the theory behind bank charges now being viewed as a "mistake"? Thanks