Further matter I have been giving some thought to is have seen a number of threads were Claimant have stated that the card carrier sent with credit card on is a copy of the executed agreement. Haven't been able to find the one relevant to this account. Has anyone been in court were this point is made by claimant, was this accepted by the DJ, the card carriers I have seen do have an agreement printed on them, but no signature boxes.

AQ submitted in September 08, along with draft order for directions for claimant to supply copy of executed agreement, file sat on DJ's desk for 4 months, Claimant asked for a stay, then another stay to attempt settlement. No settlement reached. New date given for submitting AQ (I resubmitted along with same draft order). Claimant made application for defence to be struck out and summary judgment 1 week before date AQ's to be submitted, so was told by Court Manager, Court would deal with this first. Court received claimants AQ, but claimant did not forward copy to me. However claimant have requested claim be allocated to Fast Track (even though under 5K) due to complex nature of claim. "We can't find the agreement!!!!!" - Thats my impression of them.

Regarding Securitisation, has anyone looked at MBNA doing this both in the past and now they are owned by Bank of America

Just in process of putting together evidence I will relay on at hearing to consider claimant's application for defence to be struck out and summary judgment and wondered if anyone had any thoughts on the following: S127 Enforcement orders in cases of infringement (1) In the case of an application for an enforcement order under– (a) section 65(1)(improperly executed agreements), the court shall dismiss the application if, but (subject to subsections (3) and (4)) only if it considers it just to do so having regard to- (i) prejudice caused to any person by the contravention in question, and the degree of culpability for it; subscection 4 states (4) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) in the case of a cancellable agreement if- (a) a provision of section 62 or 63 was not complied with, and the creditor or owner did not give a copy of the executed agreement, and of any other document referred to in it, to the debtor or hirer before the commencement of the proceedings in which this order is sought, Has anyone had much success arguing this point, in particular when claimant have failed to supply a copy of the agreement following S78 request, prior to issuing formal demand, prior to issuing county court claim and following a request under CPR request.

B3rty, Working on written evidence to submit prior to hearing. One thing when you say "just because something isn't enforceable by the court doesn't mean they won't enforce it…" Does the "they" mean court will still enforce it?

What I don't understand is (in my case anyway) they have not yet produce a signed Credit Agreement, yet have applied for my defence to be struck out and/or Summary Judgment, surely without such an agreement and defective DN a judge would dismiss their application. Would they relay on copies of statements to prove the debt. Has anyone been in a similar situation where claimant have produce copy statements? Is their any legal argument against producing copy statements to prove a debt?

3. What order are you asking the court to make and why? I wish to apply for an Order pursuant to Rule 3.4 of the Civil Procedure Rules that the defence be struck out for disclosing no reasonable grounds for defending the claim, and/or that there be Summary Judgment for the Claimant pursuant to Rule 24.2 of the Civil Procedure Rules, because the defendant has no real prospect of successfully defending the claim and there is no compelling reason why the case should be disposed of at trial. I would draw the Respondent's attention to Part 24.5.1 of the Civil Procedure Rules, in that should they wish to rely on written evidence at the hearing, they must a) file written evidence, and b) serve copies on every other party to the application al least seven days prior to the hearing.

This one comes round again. Have this weekend received bundle of documents from court along with notice of hearing for claimants application for my defence to be struck out for disclosing no reasonable grounds for defending the claim, and/or that there be Summary Judgment for the Claimant pursuant to Rule 24.2 of the Civil Procedure Rules, because the defendant has no real prospect of successfully defending the claim and there is no compelling reason why the case should be disposed of at trial. My full defence against this claim was submitted over nine months ago. Given that Claimant have still not supplied a copy of the original signed agreement can claimant now after nine months apply to have my defence struck. Would they be required to make an application for a defence to be struck out within a certain time limit of a defence being received by the court?

Ok, this one is back. Claim is stayed until 17 April 09, have received letter from Claimant's Sols inviting me to withdraw my defence. They claim the agreement is enforceable (a copy of which they haven't supplied YET). And the copy of the DN served under S87(1) is complaint with relevant regulations. Therefore their client has complied with the act and served a complaint notice. (This is the notice that is different from the one received They then go on to add …we therefore invite you to withdraw your Defence…you have failed to disclose any reasonable grounds for defending…if you fail to withdraw your defence our client has instructed us to make a Summary Judgment Application…client will be seeking their reasonable costs to be assessed by the Court… If they do make an application for Summary Judgment what is best way for me to deal with it?

Bill Had a quick read of "Fiddlesticks" the other day and printed it off, will sit down over weekend and read it again. Understand and appreciate your advise of caution. At present am looking at them not have produced copy of signed agreement, but have noticed on some threads about claimant - having previously stated they are unable to locate original - turning up at hearing with original (or copy of signed original). MD

Bump

So if people start to receive Statement of Arrears and no Claim Forms it could signal a change of track by creditors. I would have thought they would wait until arrears close to amount outstanding before issuing claim forms. Additional thought 07/04: If no DN or Termination Notice issued, if account holder then received statement of arrears, say 2 years after last payment, and then paid full amount of arrears - Would that then mean account would no longer be in breach as full payment of arrears rectifies that breach?

So what we could start to see happening is instead of DN's being issued, creditors may just right and say you've missed your payments and every 6 months you get a "your arrears are £XXXX.XX" statement. - OR do they still have to issue DN's just not terminate/end your agreement. Creditor waits until natural end of term of loan (as long as within 6 years of your last payment) then issue claim for full arrears. Or in case of credit card until amount of arrears is equal to full balance due (as long as within 6 years of last payment) and then issue claim for full arrears. And along as they have a signed agreement with all prescribed terms - your stuffed.

Bill, So in that case if nothing forthcoming about signed agreement NO mention of "Unlawful Rescission of Contract" in any Skeleton Argument/Argument for trial. However if they then claim "Oh look we've finally located the original signed agreement" (which seems to be the case with a number of claims just a few days before trial) consider "Unlawful Rescission of Contract" MD

They are currently using the what you "would" have signed line. Attached to AQ daft order for directions for claimant to produce original agreement, but did not get anywhere. Claimant has stated in WS they no longer have the original. POC as follows: "The Claimants claim is in respect of monies due under an agreement between the claimant to the Defendant and the claimant claims: 1. £X,XXX.XX 2. Interest pursuant to County Courts Act 1984 (S69) Now in their WS they stated they no longer sort interest pursuant to County Court Act 1984 (S69). However when I served on them my WS I pointed out they are not entitled to claim interest under S69. I served on them my WS on the date (Friday) as ordered by court, Claimant's served 4 days later (Tues).

I realise Bill you have said when it gets to the hearing claimant can say, sorry Sir, typo it should be this date. But given info in their Witness Statement that would affect all their dates and their stated timeline, would that look good in front of a judge?

Hi Bill, 1. Did not mentioned "Unlawful rescission of Contract" in my defence or Witness Statement. 2. Term of Loan should end in 2011. 3. Not received any statements of arrears (so far). I'm thinking now with regards to my Skeleton Argument/Oral Argument for the hearing - should I suggest "Unlawful Rescission of Contract" with regards to them starting recovery proceedings prior to 1st missed payment?

Sorry forgot to add, hearing due beginning of June

Heliosfa Agreement supplied without signatures (they made usual claim about how they can omit signatures for S77 request) but further copies they have supplied (following request for info after received CC Claim Form, under Disclosure and when attended their Solicitor's office for inspection) all had no signatures. Also no DN or Formal Demand received and they (so far) have not supplied any reproduced ones. By the way, I need to thank you for jogging my memory on something. You asked did I received any letters from them around the 19/06, it was whilst at work this afternoon and I remembered received a letter at time this all started off. Luckily I found it. Dated 22/06, from their collection centre and informs me "you have missed a payment on your loan(s)." The payment shortfall they claimed was for an amount that is 4.5 times my normal monthly payment. When I rang to find out they said it was a mistake on their part, they could'nt explain how it had happened, but they did confirm last payment credited to account was on 01/06, next payment not due until 01/07. And then finished off the call by suggest I visit my local branch as they had some very good offers on Personal Loans.

It is a Loan - 8K outstanding - claim is fast track. Copy of agreement supplied not compliant - after pointing this out to claimant did not hearing anything for over 6 months then received demand for payment in full from their Sol's within 7 days, then CC Claim arrived. Claimant have confirmed in their Witness Statement they no longer have original (issued Notice to prove doc's at trial with my witness statement). In my defence put claimant to strict proof that DN was served and and it was compliant. Claimants Disclosure list and doc's they supplied did not include DN or Formal Demand.

H Glad you've worked out 23/7 as date to comply (I got exactly same date). Payment missed completely Claimant is OC MD

07

As never received DN no idea by which date would need to comply. Info from SAR shows : Missed payment 01/07 DN issued 05/07 FD issued 24/07

Heliosfa In witness statement Claimant claims Dn issued on 05/07/xxxx - but never received by Defendant. (as you said in post 2 - 4 days is bit quick after 1 missed payment) Formal Demand issued 24/07/xxxx - but never received by Defendant. and claims they are unable to reproduce the DN and Formal Demand as they are produced by an automated system and a copy not retained by them.

Got a feeling this thread is getting sided-track by the Default Notices issue, but my original post was not regarding a DN but the following: Claimant's witness statement says following: " I can confirm that on 19 June xxxx Defendants Account was transfered to … to commence recovery proceedings" If recovery proceedings commenced on 19 June, this would have been before an installment was missed (next instalment due 0n 01/07/xxxx). If recovery proceedings started prior to a payment being missed Claimant would be attempting to enforce an agreement prior to default. Question is would it be Unlawful Recission of Contract to start recovery proceedings before Defendant defaulted.