Simply astonishing to find that they took some 21 days to come up with the same letter they have written to loads of other people, isn't it?

Firstly, ISPARTACUS75, If you had read my 'original' post, you would have read that I am not a banker or work behind a desk of any kind. Do keep up! Secondly, I accept your quotation regarding the legal challenge. However, it still doesn't mean you can borrow without prior permission. Now don't get me wrong, I have every sympathy for a lot of the members on this website whereby a charge was applied for something out of their control. I also acknowledge that those initial fees may not be refunded and so can escalate into considerable amounts. However, to blame one mistake for causing up to £5000 simply does not add up. Ever heard of the Financial Ombudsman Service. I am sure that had any one of you incurred hundreds or thousands of pounds from a mistake that was not caused by you, they would have happily got involved.

Coutts charge you a fee for 'managing' your accounts. This is quite a hefty fee and is the reason they do not apply other charges. They simply take a charge from your account and 'monitor' it and notify you of any problems, hebce the letter.

If only all the cases were as straight cut as yours. You advise you didn't actually go overdrawn as a result of charges but as a result of a bounced direct debit. Not sure how this can escalate to nearly £5k though? Surely if you had paid their £38 fee (or whatever it was) you would not have had this problem? In terms of the cut off, I have been checking up on this and it is you that is wrong. The banks have different cut offs for transactions. My bank, HSBC, accept transactions up to 23.30 but I know some banks 'close' at 5pm. If your balance is below your agreed limit by the 'close of business', you will NOT incur an overdraft fee. You may be charged for having a direct debit or standing order returned unpaid but not for your account being overdrawn. I did not start posting to 'stir people up' . My argument is simple. If the banks drop their charging policy, they will (and can) start charging for all services. At present most banks provide 'free banking'. I don't see why I should lose my free banking just because some people abuse their accounts.

"If I took £50, realised my mistake and gave you £20 back later that day would you have the right to charge me another £35 for the mistake? If you had to visit me to get the money back, I'd refund your petrol/bus fare but I wouldn't be happy if you felt the need to punish me for the mistake." If it was only as simple as that. If it was as you say, 'a mistake', you would be charged anything for £20-£38. However, looking at some of the levels of charges, it is obvious that some of the people posting, are not incurreing fees by 'making a mistake'. They are deliberately spening money that isn't theirs, simply because they need the money. Second point I would like to make on your reply. If you 'gave me £20 back later that day', you wouldn't expect to be charged. Is this not the same for banks. I was under the impression as long as your account balance was under the agreed limit by close of business, you would not incur a fee. Is this not right? By the way, your other points make sense. I am all for protecting the innocents, but I am sick to the back teeth of people who abuse services (in this case, banking policies) and jump on a bandwaggon. There are some of us who have made an error miscalculating how much money is in their accounts. I have done it, we all have. The difference is, there are some people who know they are overdrawn, continue spending the bank's money and expect someone else to help them out. Have you set up a website for the speeding fines, parking fines etc?

"Always rememember that YOU are the one who has been treated wrongly. The bank has taken YOUR money illegally!" Is that not what we do when we breach our overdraft limit??? Surely, the bank have been treated unfairly by us, their customer's, when we do not manage our accounts as we agreed. "The Law can be an Ass, but it is there to put right wrongs done to individuals like you, me and thousands of others." In this context, we are lucky, are we not, that the banks do not have the time and effort to prosecute us for stealing their money???

Thank you Dave (AND OTHERS) for your reply. I am concerned you state your 4 year old daughter has grasped the concept but I have not. I find it equally alarming you are teaching your daughter immoral values. Is it really alright to steal and to then try to defend yourself by taking the innocent party to court????? I have realised not one of you have tried to defend my 4th question. The banks agree to lend us a pre-agreed amount and you have taken more than this. This is paramount to stealing! If you went into a shop, bought a top and decided to take some jeans too, would the shop not be in their right to prosecute you? FACT- You have taken the bank's money without their permission. Is this not correct!!!!!? Pizza Hut salad bowl reply, 'They do not however let you help yourself, and if you take more than a portion penalise you for doing so.' No, they would make you pay for another bowl OR threaten to prosecute you for stealing. 'Why should the banks get away with breaking the law?' Again, I ask if you know this to be a fact? You are all jumping on the bandwagon and claiming these are 'penalty fees'. I have checked my own account terms and conditions and over the limit fees are not quoted as 'penalty fees'. I can understand anybody being upset if they have made a genuine mistake and incurred an overdraft fee. However, looking on this website, it is clear the majority of you are not making a mistake, you are taking liberties. I will end this post by saying this again in clear English. 'You are taking the bank's money WITHOUT permission. In any other scenario, you would be deemed a thief and prosecuted. Fact is, if you do not like paying overdraft fees, do not steal the bank's money. END OF ARGUMENT!'

I understand the argument is simply, 'Are these charges legally enforceable in court?'. However, my own argument is, rather than looking for a 'cure' you guys should be looking for the 'prevention'. Try managing your accounts instead of getting your banks to do it! I will ask my question again? Do you pay MacDonalds 10p for a bag of fries, afterall that is all it will have cost them to provide? You state that you agree banks should apply a fee but in proportion to the work involved. Surely that argument is the same for EVERY business in the World. Fact- Banks make money from you as a customer Fact- So does every other business I can think of! Still confused :?

Sure enough, nobody wants to pay charges. However, am I the only person who realises that if you do not exceed any agreed limit the bank give you, you don't get charged. The truth therefore is 'If you do not want to give your hard earned cash to the banks, do not mismanage your accounts!' There are several posts on this website claiming the charges are a penalty and that these are 'unenforceable in court'. Do you know that for a fact, or are you basing this on historical court cases, which in reality have no resemblance? Fact No1) Do you eat in a restaurant and then only agree to pay the price of what the food actually costs to buy/prepare? No, you agree up front that you are willing to pay the price quoted. Is that not what you agree to do when you sign your current account Terms & Conditions? Fact2) How many of you have received a parking ticket or speeding fine and refused to pay because the courts have decided in 1900 that penalty fees are unenforceable in court? I bet there aren't many of you! Fact3) Have you actually tried asking your banks to reduce the amount of charges being applied? You will find some banks are quite sympathetic and will look to meet you part way, unless you are taking the p!ss. Fact4) If you asked me if your could borrow £20 from my wallet and I agreed, then you proceeded to take £50, would I not be in my rght to take YOU to court. Surely you can't be serious about taking the banks to court because you have failed to honour your agreement and have simply 'stolen' their money, albeit only for a short period of time. ......And before you ask, NO I don't work for a bank. I simply work hard and manage my own accounts correctly. :?