Thanks, GaryH, that sounds like a good solid plan to me! I will be able to drop in (in-between work) over the weekend if there are any updates. All best, Gandolfi

That's great, thanks GaryH. Yes, I submitted the AQ and have not heard back yet (apart from a letter saying that the case is transferred to my local court. As I said before, apparently Natwest haven't seen my defence yet and they are having an argument with the court over its whereabouts. So, yes....amended defence and counterclaim needs to be prepared. Should I still send the letter demanding disclosure of all information (after their failure to comply with my SAR)? Should I include anything else in that letter (CCA request etc)? I cannot be here much over the weekend, but will be back all day Monday, to act on any advice given. Thanks and best wishes, Gandolfi

defaultValue893r6O?7d very helpful thanks. To be honest it looks like you've done very well so far. Well done. Defence was good and it stated the nature of your case so I don't predict too many problems with this one. It was also the correct thing to do to request a stay. A) Obviously you will need a figure for the counterclaim - are you confident you can provide an accurate one? B) Also, are we talking probable fast track here? What are the respective amounts of the claim and counterclaim? (PM me this if you'd rather not put it on the open forum) C) Also, can I see the POC please? D) Have you sent a CCA request? Thanks Gary. It's great to know that I'm on the right track and haven't made any blunders so far. Your advice on how to move forward (especially concerning the draft letters shown in last post) would be very welcome. I'll try to answer the points you've raised in order: A) The figures I can supply are from an (almost) comprehensive set of statements back to 1991. There are some from the last year that are missing (on the loan) and the most recent ones on the business account, and a few early ones. The later ones would just show interest charged, so can be fairly accurately estimated. B)The amount of their claim is c£15,000. My counterclaim is likely to be c£15,000 + CI at 11% or s69 (either £30,000 or £24,000 approximately). C) Their POC (with approximate figures shown here) are: 1) Details of outstanding account(s) Date 18/2/07 A/C Number xxxxxxxxxx a/C Type - Current Amount £4500 Date 18/2/07 A/C Number xxxxxxxxxx A/C Type - Loan Amount £10,000 Total Due £15,000 2) The claimant is a holder of a licence under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 3) The claimant has made demand/issues Default Notice(s) in respect of the outstanding accounts. The Defendant has failed to repay and/or the Default Notice(s) have not been complied with. 4) The total amount outstanding set out in paragraph 1 includes accrued interest at the relvant aggreement rate from the date of demand/termination date to the date of issue. 5) The claimant claims continuing interest at the relevant rate or alternatively pursuant to Section 69 of the County Courtd Act 1984 from the date of issue until Judgement or sooner payment. D) I have not yet made a CCA request (this is the first time I've heard of it). Thanks again, GaryH. I really appreciate your input and hope that you'll be able to help me over the next hurdles. Best wishes, Gandolfi

Thanks GaryH for taking the time to help - I know you are incredibly busy. I really appreciate it! The following is a full Timeline of what's happened so far, together with the two draft letters that I think will be the next step. Gandolfi v Nat West: Timeline 1) 12th March - They filed a County Court claim for unpaid loan and business overdraft. 2) I acknowledged service within 14 days. 3) 11th April - I submitted the following defence and sent SAR to the bank. In a separate letter to the bank I requested that they hold action on my accounts for 28 days while I prepared my defence. They refused to do this. MY DEFENCE STATEMENT (accompanied by copy of SAR letter sent to bank) "I intend to defend this claim in full, including all outstanding debts on both of the accounts listed in the particulars of claim. The debt is in dispute as I believe it contains unlawful penalty charges. Accumulated disproportionate penalty charges – which I believe to be unlawful – and the interest levied upon them throughout my relationship with Nat West are the very basis of my indebtedness to them. I intend to claim back all unlawfully applied charges and the interest levied upon them by the bank. I now understand that the regime of penalties which Nat West have been applying to my accounts in relation to direct-debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law and contrary to statute. Penalty charges are irrecoverable at common law. The precedent for this was Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v. New Garage and Motor Co Ltd [1915] AC 79 along with Murray v. Leisure Play [2005] EWCA Civ 963. It was held that a contractual party can only recover damages for an actual loss or liquidated losses. It is clear that the penalties imposed on my accounts by Nat West do not reflect any actual or real loss. I have written a Subject Access Request (Data Protection Act 1998) to Nat West (copy enclosed) asking for full disclosure of all transactions and charges, as well as evidence of manual intervention on my account. I have kept the majority of my bank statements and will therefore, in the meantime, calculate my claim for repayment of charges and interest (plus contractual interest for the bank's use of my money), on the basis of the information that is available to me. It will be clear that were it not for the bank's disproportionate and unfair penalties on my accounts – persistently applied over many years – the debt for which they are claiming would not exist." 4) 13th April - The court sent me an Allocation Questionaire. 5) 30th April - I submitted the Allocation Questionaire to the court. In it, I requested that the case be transferred to a local court. I also requested a stay so that I could fully particularise my defence. The AQ info statement was: "I respectfully request further time to particularise my defence. I am currently awaiting a response from Natwest to my Subject Access Request Letter (10th April) for full information and disclosure regarding the charges applied to my accounts with them. This will allow me to submit accurate calculations of the charges and interest levied on my accounts by Natwest, which I believe to be unlawful. I intend to submit an amended defence and counterclaim in order to recover these charges and interest, which are in excess of the sums claimed by Natwest in this case. Detailed figures illustrating the nature of those charges will be submitted to the court at the earliest opportunity. If Natwest do not provide the information requested in my Subject Access Request, calculations will be submitted based on part-estimates of the sums in question." 6) 24th May - SAR deadline. Natwest have not complied with the SAR - just a few statements, totally inadequate. 7) 1st June - Spoke to Natwest to find out their current interest rates. They wanted to discuss the case - said they were 'having an argument with the court' about where my defence was (they haven't seen it because it has gone astray in the transfer to my local court). Asked me if I would send them a copy. I said I didn't want to discuss the case and that any requests should be made in writing. 8) Today. Because I am defending their claim I wasn't able to do the Prelim/LBA in the normal way. Therefore, the bank has not yet seen any figures regarding my intended counterclaim. Neither have they provided all the information I need to fully particularise my claim. I do however have the majority of my statements going back to 1991 and have prepared figures based on what is available to me (plus some fairly accurate estimates). I am now at a stage where I have to decide whether I should send the following two letters together with spreadsheets to the bank. The first letter demands full disclosure of all information. The second requests full repayment of charges and interest. It is effectively a LBA (before submitting a counterclaim). I also need to know how to let the court know that this is happening. Do I just send copies? The draft wording of the letters is as follows: first letter Gandolfi xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx National Westminster Bank xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx 7th June 2007 Copy sent to Court Re: Claim Number: xxxxxxxxx Dear Sir/Madam I am writing with regard to the Court claim filed by your company against me on 12 March 2007. I filed a defence to the Court on 11th April 2007, stating that the amounts are now in dispute as I believed they were made up of unlawful bank charges. I subsequently requested more time to particularise my defence on the grounds that I was awaiting your response to my Data Protection/Subject Access Request letter (10th April), which asked for detailed information regarding my relationship with National Westminster Bank. A copy of this letter was supplied to the Court with my defence. I informed the Court that I wished to file an amended defence and issue a counterclaim as soon as this information was supplied. As stated in my Subject Access Request letter, you were given 40 days in which to comply. The deadline for providing the requested information passed on 24th May. Despite my request for a complete list of charges and transactions relating to my banking history with your organisation – including the following accounts, xxxxxxxxxxxxx Business Current, xxxxxxxxxx Personal Current, xxxxxxxxxxxxx Business Loan – you have failed to supply the information required. Your response has been wholly inadequate and incomplete. My Business Account was opened in 1989, yet you have only sent bank statements from 29/03/01 to 29/12/06. The Business Loan began in July 2001, yet you have only provided statements from 4/10/02 to 30/9/04. You have provided no information whatsoever regarding my Personal Current Account. Furthermore, you have made no response to my request for information or evidence regarding any manual intervention in relation to my banking history and have not disclosed any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention. To enable me to file a fully particularised defence and counter-claim, I require specific information regarding these accounts to be provided forthwith. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below. This letter supercedes the Data Protection request made on 10th April 2007. The information must be furnished by the 19th June 2007, which gives you seven working days to provide what has been requested. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an order enforcing your compliance will be sought. The following information is required: 1) I hereby request all data that National Westminster Bank hold on me from all relevant filing systems, to include a complete list of all transactions and charges on my accounts held or formerly held with National Westminster Bank. I also require a transcript of all recorded phone calls pertinent to these accounts and all notes made in relation to those calls. 2) Additionally, where there has been any event in my accounts' history which has required manual intervention by any member of National Westminster Bank, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my accounts held or formerly held with National Westminster Bank. If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response. 3) I also require true copies of all original signed agreements between myself and National Westminster Bank. 4) Full Terms and Conditions and charges tariffs relating to each account, from the date when the accounts were opened and including any revisions or amendments to the present day. 5) Documents relating to any insurance added to the accounts, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted. 6) A true copy of any Default Notice issued in respect of these accounts. 7) Specific details of the fees/charges levied by National Westminster Bank in respect of these accounts and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied. I also enclose a letter that provides details of my intended counterclaim for unlawful charges and interest on those charges based on the bank statements that are currently available to me. Please note that if you do not respond positively to my request for full disclosure of the information requested above by 19th June, I will proceed with an amended defence and counterclaim using the attached calculations without further delay. I look forward to your co-operation in this matter. Additionally, as the information requested contains sensitive personal details, I expect it to be sent by guaranteed next day delivery, to ensure its safe arrival. Yours faithfully, Gandolfi second letter Gandolfi xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxx National Westminster Bank xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx 7th June 2007 Copy sent to Court Re: Claim Number: xxxxxxxx Request for repayment of charges Dear Sir/Madam ACCOUNT NUMBERS: xxxxxxxxxxx Business Current, xxxxxxxxxxx Personal Current, xxxxxxxxxxxxx Business Loan My request Further to my enclosed letter requesting all information on my accounts' history with your organisation and in relation to your County Court claim (Ref: xxxxxxxxxx) I am writing to ask you to refund to me the charges which you have levied from my accounts over the last sixteen years, plus interest as shown in the enclosed documents. I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my accounts in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations. The charges debited to the accounts are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the bank; exceed any alleged actual loss to the bank in respect of any breaches of contract; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the bank which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit. The precedent for this was Dunlop Pneumatic v New Garage [1915] AC 79.along with Murray v. Leisure play [2005] EWCA Civ 963. If you say that this is not the case, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs. Additionally, it has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary. Your responsibilities I would draw your attention to the terms of the contracts that you agreed to at the time that I opened my accounts. It is an implied term of those contracts that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner that complies with UK law. I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as the provider of my banking facilities. I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them. Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now. What I require I calculate that you have taken £XXXXX plus £XXX X which you have charged me in overdraft and loan interest for the sum which you have taken. Total £XXXXX . I enclose a schedule of the charges that I am claiming with this letter. In addition, I claim £XXXX interest on the amounts claimed using the same contractual rate that you have applied, and continue to apply, to the debt that has been caused by your unlawful charges. The grounds for claiming this rate are based in equity and a legal requirement for fairness. The monies that you have unlawfully taken from my accounts in respect of unfair charges, and the interest you have subsequently debited in relation to those charges, has been available to you throughout this period to re-lend at commercial rates, thus enabling you to profit unfairly from your actions. Furthermore, in contrast to the unjust enrichment resulting from your levying of unlawful charges, I have been deprived of the potential benefits of using or investing the monies that you have unlawfully debited from my accounts. I therefore claim the following: £xxxxxxx Charges £xxxxxxx Debited Interest applied to charges £xxxxxxx 11% Contractual Interest applied to charges £xxxxxxx 11% Contractual Interest applied to debited interest £xxxxxxx Total For your further information, should it become necessary to submit a counterclaim, £xxxxxx s69 court interest at 8% will be presented to the Judge in the alternative to the 11% contractual rate shown above. Additionally, you have entered a default notice against my credit record. This default occurred merely in respect of unlawful charges levied by you or was the result of impecuniosity caused directly by the taking by you of penalty charges that you had applied unlawfully to my account. In addition to full payment of the sums mentioned above, I require that you remove the default entry from the register. Please note that mere correction or amendment to the entry will not be acceptable. My targets to resolve this matter I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter. In addition to my request for information as detailed in the enclosed letter, I will give you 7 working days to reply to me accepting, unconditionally, my request for repayment in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment. If you dispute that I am entitled to a refund of these charges, I request that you forward within the above mentioned time scale, a copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in force at the time my account was opened, and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions. These are requested under CPR Pre-Action Protocol 4.6©, and failure to provide them will be brought to the attention of the court, should it be necessary to file a Counterclaim to your action in the county court. If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a counterclaim without delay. Yours faithfully, Gandolfi GaryH - I hope that isn't an overload of information. It's as comprehensive but concise as I could make it. Good to have it all in one place rather than on many previous, slightly confusing posts. Thanks again for looking over this. I look forward to your advice. Very best wishes, Gandolfi

Thank you Celicaman. That means a lot. I'm not going to let them ruin my life. With the fantastic support that I've found here I'm determined to fight back! I'm about to send a post with a full summary of events so far for Gary H to look over, but just wanted to welcome you here. Glad you are watching! Gandolfi

Hello Photoman (and all on this thread)! First of all, thanks for creating such a brilliant thread - it has been a really useful resource for me so far. My case is quite complex and involves both personal and business accounts. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/81525-gandolfi-natwest-3.html To sum up briefly, Natwest filed a claim against me for unpaid loan/overdraft debts. I am in the process of defending and counterclaiming for unlawful bank charges. It is quite a big claim, 16 years, loan interest, possibly CI, default removal, kitchen sink etc. I have a couple of questions which I hope you may be able to help with. 1) I want to claim back O/D interest and the interest on unecessary business loans (also with Natwest) which I was encouraged to take out to pay off the debt caused by the charges (usual story it seems). Both types of interest were debited from my business account. There is a period where I am overdrawn AND paying off the loan at the same time....this is where I get confused..... How do I enter the interest/balances in Mindzai's spreadsheet so that it can calculate the correct proportion of both sets of interest against the accumulated charges? Do I enter the O/D balance against O/D interest and the loan balance against loan interest? 2)Because my counterclaim will include both personal and sole trader accounts, is it OK to leave the consumer law clauses in my claim? I have loads more to ask but will leave it at that on this thread for now. If you are able to offer any specific help on my case do drop in on my thread if you have time. Thanks again! Gandolfi

Thanks Hedgey, and welcome. Gary H - I realise you must be incredibly busy, but I'm hoping you will be able to help... Many thanks Gandolfi

Just bumping this thread to see if anyone can offer advice regarding my previous query, below.....? Thanks all, Gandolfi

First of all I'd like to say a HUGE THANKYOU to Mindzai and Lucid for this thread and for the fantastic spreadsheet. As a previously Excel-illiterate user I've found it surprisingly simple and straight forward. However, I have a couple of questions which I hope you can help me with.... My thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/81525-gandolfi-natwest.html gives details of my fairly complex and sizeable claim against Nat West for both business and personal accounts. I want to claim for the interest charged by the bank on my business O/D and Business Loan. Both sets of interest were debited from the business account. My question is how to enter both interest figures so that the spreadsheet can best calculate the correct proportion of each interest charge in relation to the accumulated penalties...? (1) If my O/D balance is £4000 and the charges are £7000 the spreadsheet will automatically calculate that I can claim 100% of the interest. (2) If I also enter the loan balance as £14000 the spreadsheet will calculate that I can claim back 50% of the interest. In (1), £4000 of the bank charges have been set against the O/D interest. So, in (2), shouldn't I only be using the remaining £3000 of charges to set against the loan interest (rather than the full £7000)??? This would seem more proportionate....but how do I do this on the spreadsheet? Or should I not...? I read somewhere else that I should just set the full amount of charges against both items and let the bank work it out....but I want to be as accurate as I can be. Please help. :-?

Thanks for your encouragement Electric! And thanks for the information I gathered from your thread - it has been really useful. It's good to know we're not alone in all of this! If there's any help I can give you in return, do let me know. Best of luck with your fight. With all the moral support and brilliant advice from the people on this site, we'll get there in the end. All best wishes, Gandolfi

Thanks GaryH! Welcome to the thread - I'm really pleased you are able to give your time and help. I look forward to your response. Hope you have a good evening. I'm off out now too - have been staring at computer screen for three days solid and need a break! Best wishes

Thanks Guido T. I spoke to the bank to ask for details of current interest rates yesterday. They said they were having an argument with the court about where my defence was. They say they haven't seen it yet and asked me to post them a copy. I said I didn't want to discuss the case over the phone and would prefer that everything was in writing. Hope that was right... That does seem to suggest that there may be some time to spare...?

This is going to be a long post, I'm afraid. I am at a crucial stage and am about to submit all info to the bank/court regarding my Defence/Counterclaim. Guido T has helped enormously to get me this far. His advice has been to file an amended defence and Counterclaim asap. However, I read on a separate thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/73679-illegal-ccj-account-desperate-8.html that an informed Counterclaim can't be filed until the bank supplies the information required in my SAR. I have adapted a letter (below) from posts 51 & 52 of that thread to apply to my own case (with acknowledgements and thanks to Laiste and Electric Lemon). I now have two choices.......your advice would be very helpful... 1) I send the first of the following two letters and go straight ahead with my Counterclaim. My worry is that, so far, the bank have not received ANY specific details of my claim for refund of charges/interest etc. I trust and value Guido T's advice to file the counterclaim now, I just want to make absolutely sure that this is my best and only choice of action. 2) My second option is to send both letters, giving the bank 14 days to either settle in full or to comply with my request for full disclosure. The problem with the second option is that time is short and I do not want to be defeated in Nat West's action against me because I haven't submitted an amended defence/counterclaim in time. Anyway, here are the letters with some ?????questions????? shown like this in the text. Any comments/additions/amendments/advice welcomed. Thankyou! LETTER ONE Mr Gandolfi XXXXX XXXXX 1st June 2007 National Westminster Bank Copy sent to Court Re: Claim Number: XXX XXXXX Account Numbers: XXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXX Request for full disclosure of account information Dear Sir/Madam I am writing with regard to the Court claim filed by your company against me. I filed a defence to the Court on 11th April 2007, stating that the amounts are now in dispute as I believed they were made up of unlawful bank charges. I subsequently requested more time to particularise my defence on the grounds that I was awaiting your response to my Data Protection/Subject Access Request letter (10th April), for information regarding my relationship with National Westminster Bank. (a copy of this letter was supplied to the court with my defence), I informed the Court that I intend to file an amended defence and issue a Counterclaim as soon as the requested information was supplied. As stated in my letter, you were given 40 days in which to comply with my request. The deadline for providing the requested information passed on 24th May. Despite my request for a complete list of charges and transactions relating to my banking history with your organisation – including the following accounts, XXXXXXXX Business Current, XXXXXXXX Personal Current, XXXXXXXX Business Loan – you have failed to supply the information required. Your response has been wholly inadequate and incomplete. My Business Account was opened in 1989, yet you have only sent bank statements from 29/03/01 to 29/12/06. The Business Loan began in July 2001, yet you have only provided statements from 4/10/02 to 30/9/04. You have provided no information whatsoever regarding my Personal Current Account. Furthermore, you have made no response to my request for information or evidence regarding any manual intervention in relation to my banking history and have not disclosed any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention. ********To enable me to file a defence and counter-claim, I require specific information regarding the account to be provided forthwith.*****???? or ???? ******* I therefore have no option but to submit my amended defence and Counterclaim on the basis of the information that is available to me.****** ????? Which should I use?????? Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below. This letter supercedes the Data Protection request made on 10th April 2007. The information must be furnished by the XXth June 2007, which gives you fourteen days to provide what has been requested. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an order enforcing your compliance will be sought. The following information is required: 1) I hereby request all data that National Westminster Bank hold on me from all relevant filing systems, to include a complete list of all transactions and charges on my accounts held/formerly held with National Westminster Bank. I also require a transcript of all recorded phone calls pertinent to these accounts and all notes made in relation to those calls. 2) Additionally, where there has been any event in my accounts history which has required manual intervention by any member of National Westminster Bank, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my accounts held/formerly held with National Westminster Bank. If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response. 3) I also require true copies of all original signed agreements between myself and National Westminster Bank. 4) Full Terms and Conditions and charges tariffs relating to each account, from the date when the accounts were opened and including any revisions to the present day. 5) Documents relating to any insurance added to the accounts, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable). 6) A true copy of any Default Notice issued in respect of these accounts. 7) Specific details of the fees/charges levied by National Westminster Bank in respect of these accounts and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied. I also enclose details of my intended Counterclaim for unlawful charges and interest on those charges based on the bank statements that are currently available to me. Please note that if my request for full disclosure of the information requested above is not supplied by XXth June, I will proceed with an amended defence and Counterclaim using the attached calculations. I look forward to your co-operation in this matter. Additionally, as the information requested contains sensitive personal details, I expect it to be sent by guaranteed next day delivery, to ensure its safe arrival. Yours faithfully, LETTER TWO Mr Gandolfi xxxxxxxxxx National Westminster Bank xxxxxxxxxx Copy Sent to Court (Claim Ref: XXXX) [date] Request for repayment of charges Dear Sir/Madam, ACCOUNT NUMBERS: XXXXXXXXX Business Current, XXXXXXXX Personal Current, XXXXXXXX Business Loan My request Further to my enclosed letter requesting all information on my accounts' history with your organisation and in relation to your County Court claim (Ref: XXXXXX) I am writing to ask you to refund to me the charges which you have levied from my accounts over the last 16 years. I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my accounts in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations. ??????....do I leave the reference to Consumer regulations in - part of my claim is for Personal Acc/part for Business Acc??????or do I just use non-consumer??????. The charges debited to the accounts are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the bank; exceed any alleged actual loss to the bank in respect of any breaches of contract ; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the bank which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit. The precedent for this was Dunlop Pneumatic v New Garage [1915] AC 79.along with Murray v. Leisure play [2005] EWCA Civ 963. If you say that this is not the case, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs. Additionally, it has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary. Your responsibilities I would draw your attention to the terms of the contracts which you agreed to at the time that I opened my accounts. It is an implied term of those contracts that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law. I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary ????is there an alternative to fiduciary - not sure that it is right???? I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them. Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now. What I require I calculate that you have taken £XXXX plus £XXXX which you have charged me in overdraft and loan interest for the sum which you have taken. Total £XXXXX . I enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter. In addition, I claim £XXXX compound interest on the amounts claimed using the same rate that you have applied, and continue to apply, to the debt that has been caused by your unlawful charges. The grounds for claiming this rate is based in equity and a legal requirement for fairness. [????This contractual section needs more work!!!??? Any advice????] Additionally you have entered a default notice against my credit record. This default occurred merely in respect of unlawful charges levied by you or was the result of impecuniosity caused directly by the taking by you of penalty charges which you had applied unlawfully to my account. In addition to full payment of the sum mentioned above, I require that you remove the default entry from the register. Please note that mere correction or amendment to the entry will not be acceptable. My targets to resolve this matter I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter. In addition to my request for information on my accounts as detailed in the enclosed letter, I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting, unconditionally, my request for repayment in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment. If you dispute that I am entitled to a refund of these charges, I request that you forward within the above mentioned time scale, a copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in force at the time my account was opened, and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions. These are requested under CPR Pre-Action Protocol 4.6©, and failure to provide them will be brought to the attention of the court, should it be necessary to file a Counterclaim to your action in the county court. If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a counterclaim without delay. Yours faithfully, Apologies for long post. Thanks for bearing with me. Any thoughts on how to proceed?

Hello I'm starting a new claim for charges on my RBS credit card. Just wanted to say hi and check that I'm sending the SAR to the correct address: Royal Bank of Scotland Cards Customer Services PO Box 6050 Southend-on-Sea SS99 1WL I currently have a large and complex case in the Nat West forum... http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/81525-gandolfi-natwest.html All help and advice on both cases much appreciated!

Hello all I don't want to hijack your thread Electric Lemon. I was advised to read it because there are issues that relate to my own case. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/81525-gandolfi-natwest.html It's great to know that I'm not alone in having to respond to a County Court claim from the bank by filing a defence and Counterclaim. It's scary stuff! Inspiring to see that with sound advice from Laiste your confidence and control of the situation has steadily grown. My reason for posting......... I've PM'd Laiste to ask her permission to use the guidance she gave you for the letter demanding full disclosure before filing a Counterclaim (posts 51 & 52). I'd like to post the version that I've adapted for my own case on my post (for more advice) and just wanted to check that it is OK. Don't want to steal other people's work without acknowledgement. Laiste, if you read this, could you let me know that it is OK to post it? Thanks! Stay strong Mrs Electric!! Good luck!!!

Thanks Scott - I think you are right, that much interest would be groundbreaking to say the least. I want to be confident that the amount claimed is absolutely justified and that the true potential benefits of my lost money are reinstated. I don't want to falsely enrich myself as a result of my claim. I'll have a closer look at Photoman's thread too. Thanks and best wishes, Gandolfi

Thanks Guido T I'm on the case and aim to submit everything by the end of this week. I realise the urgency, but wasn't sure about going straight to the Counterclaim without supplying Nat West with the information beforehand, to give them an opportunity to settle before court action. If you feel that I have no choice (or that it is better) then I will go ahead with the Counterclaim straightaway. Your guidance for the Amended Defence/Counterclaim would be very helpful (I'll send my email to you). The figures are all in place now. I've included estimates of the parts that are missing. Despite Nat West's non-compliance with the SAR, I already have most of my statements. Still unsure about the correct CI rate to claim. Aiming high and negotiating is right, I think. But a £160,000 claim including CI @ 29.5%? Can that be justified?

Thanks Scott, and welcome to the thread! All advice (especially from a celebrated winner) is much appreciated! I raised a glass (several actually) to your win last month - it was a big boost for me in the early stages. Hope you've been enjoying the success! So, if I were to apply the UAB rate (29.5%) as contractual interest, the total claim would reach almost £160,000. That would be £14,000 charges+interest, plus £146,000 contractual interest. I'd very much like to knock you off the top spot with such a huge claim, but I'm not sure I want to risk sticking my neck out as far as that....if I wasn't already being pursued in court by Nat West for the debt that was caused by the charges, I might be more inclined to try it. It makes sense logically, but with all of the other complications (Business+Personal, pre-6 Years etc), is it pushing it too much, do you think? Did you claim contractual interest? From reading your thread I thought you just claimed the 8%...I would be happy with that, but want to claim a contractual rate from the very beginning. Does anybody know what the authorised borrowing rate is for business accounts. Maybe that would be a more justifiable figure? Thanks again for help. Cheers!

FANTASTIC news Parkvale!!! CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!! I am SO chuffed for you!! You've really earned it - not just for the work you've put in on your own claims, but for all the help, advice, support and encouragement you've given the rest of us! Enjoy your success! :D

Thanks Hedgey! Sorry I made your head hurt....too much heavy-duty information for a friday night, I know. No wonder GuidoT had to go and get drunk!! Hope you all had a good Bank Holiday weekend anyway - it's good that the banks get a break every now and then, I guess! PM sent to Guido T. Will let Parkvale know the details as soon as my Counter Claim goes in against Nat West. Cheers!

Hi all (especially Guido T and Parkvale), hope you are well! Long time no post from me. Firstly, BIG thanks to Mindzai for a fantastic spreadsheet, which I have now conquered. All of the figures have been calculated and I'm ready to fight back.... To sum up the situation......a claim was issued against me for loan/overdraft debts with Nat West (£15k). I have banked with them (business and personal) for 17 years. I replied to the claim stating that I intended to defend because the debt is now in dispute as it is made up of unlawful bank charges that I intend to reclaim. I also sent a SAR letter to the bank and copy to the court (as per template). On the allocation questionaire (for their claim against me) I requested a stay and more time to particularise my defence with a view to submitting an amended defence and counterclaim as soon as Nat West had supplied me with the requested account information. Meanwhile, I would calculate the figures using the statements I have kept (most of them). The 40 day SAR deadline is now up and they have sent only a small number of statements for business/loan accounts and no statements at all for the personal account. They haven't complied with the request, so I have gone ahead with a calculations using the majority of my statements. The figures are as follows: PERSONAL Acc (from 1996 onwards - with some gaps): Penalties = £1421 (no significant interest charged on penalties) Contractual Interest @ 10.45% = £1973.75 Contractual Interest @ 29.50% = £13, 036.29 s69 Court Interest @ 8% = £977.63 BUSINESS Acc (from 1991 onwards - with one year missing, 1993): Penalties = £6251 Interest Charged on Penalties = £6476.19 Total = £12,728.09 Contractual Interest @ 10.45% = £15,650.33 Contractual Interest @ 29.50% = £131,307.89 s69 Court Interest @ 8% = £7203.01 I am now ready to submit these figures to Nat West informing them that I intend to use them as a counterclaim to their action against me. I am scared as hell, but it is really clear that their charges pushed me into a debt trap (loans + more charges) throughout my relationship with them, so I want my money back!!! I've been reading through BONG's thread which seems a really useful source for claims that include both contractual interest and use of the Limitations Act to claim beyond six years. Any other recommendations would be welcome. Sources of information on the wording of claims featuring the Limitations Act would be particularly helpful. My case is a really complex one that includes both business and personal accounts and I am still feeling a little out of my depth. The templates I intend to use are for business accounts which don't refer to consumer law. Is it better to just use that for the entire claim or should I also add the consumer law with reference to the Personal account? Also, If I were to follow the absolute principle of equity in my claim for full contractual interest at the UAB rate (which they are still charging me on the O/D), the final figure would be ridiculously high (£158,493!). The 10.45% rate is equivalent to their loan rate (which they are charging me on the loan proportion of my debt) which gives a final claim figure of £31,773.17. My instinct is to submit the 10.45% claim with the 8% court rate in the alternative. Is this correct do you think? I want to get it absolutely right from the beginning. Also, a lot of the interest claims are for a proportion of the interest on Nat West 'Business Development' loans that relate to the business account. They were only necessary because of the excess charges that had accumulated. It is fairly straightforward, I think, because they were directly related to the account and were not taken out with other banks. However, any advice on that element would be much appreciated. I have been very careful with the proportionate interest calculations and haven't doubled-up with O/D interest at the same time (all in proportion to accumulated charges at interest date). Advice on the letter to Nat West would be appreciated - is it OK to just send the LBA and then go straight in with the Counterclaim? Or should I write the preliminary letter first? Time is short with their claim against me still running. However, I want to be seen to have given them sufficient opportunity to respond.... Anyway, I'm revved up and waiting to hit back!! Thanks again in advance for help! PS - should I be contacting moderators/submitting litigation details etc? Not sure of the etiquette, but any help from the top would be gratefully received.

I just wanted to check that my methods for calculating interest are correct. I have a couple of questions. 1) My first query is regarding the interest charged by the bank as a result of their charges. My method for calculating what is claimable is as follows: If the running total of accumulated charges is £500 and the level of my overdraft for the period that the interest is taken is £1000, then I claim 50% of the interest charged for that period (let's say £20 of the £40 interest charged by the bank). I then add that £20 to make a running total of £520 charges+interest. On the next date that interest on the £1000 overdraft balance is applied to my account, I can claim a 52% proportion of the interest. As this accumulates the charges+interest eventually become greater than the overdraft debt, meaning that I claim 100% of the interest charged. Is this correct? 2) My second query is regarding contractual interest. I intend to present 3 options to the judge at 29.5% (which they have been charging me for years), the loan rate of 9.5%, and the court interest at 8%. It would be a big help if someone is able to let me know the correct maths for calculating these rates. I have prepared detailed manual spreadsheets (I am not Excel literate and am more confident with manually entering the calculations). I am assuming it is 'Charge x Number of days x ?????????'. It would be a big help to know the correct equations for these calculations. Thanks in advance!

Just to keep you up-to-date with the figures... The business account has total charges of £6650, plus £9860 of interest that the bank have charged me (over £4000 of interest has been charged by the bank on my account since June 2005). Giving a total of £16,500 before either contractual/court interest is added. I now need to find a way of organising the contractual rate of interest to add to this with my claim. They have been charging me 29.5%. Is it valid for me to do the same?

Thanks Guido. Apologies for delay in responding. I'm sure that my claim will be for quite a bit more than theirs once I've added the interest they have charged (as well as contractual interest). Could you explain what a Part 36 offer would be? Would it mean me agreeing to pay some of the debt to bring it under the 'fastrack' level? I do feel that if I am going to raise a counter-claim then I want it to be for all that they owe me, not just to clear the debt. I'm still in the process of calculating the actual interest charged by the bank and the claimable proportion of that interest in relation to the running total of charges at each interest date. There are quite a few points in the account history when the total charges exceed the total borrowing, but most of the time it is more complicated than that. e.g. where the charges=£1700 and the borrowing=£3900 - meaning I can claim 43.6% of the interest charged by the bank at that point and add it to the running total. Once I have calculated the charges and the proportion of interest related to those charges, I also want to calculate the contractual interest for my claim. My claim goes back beyond 6 years and I've been charged interest at various rates over that time (from 11.5% to 29.5%). However, for at least the last 6 years I have been charged an overdraft rate of 29.5% on what I now realise is an amount of debt that was caused by the bank's own charges in the first place. In what would seem logical fairness, I'd like to make the contractual calculations at 29.5%, but this will make my claim very big indeed. But, looking through the build-up of charges it is very clear that I could've paid the deposit for my mortgage at least two years earlier and could have taken greater advantage of rising house prices in those years (my house almost doubled in value over three years). NatWest's charges deprived me of that opportunity. The total amount should be far in excess of the money NatWest is claiming. So, I don't think an offer of part-payment would be appropriate. If this exposes me to potential costs, what could that mean? I look at others' successes and see that I have been similarly deprived of my money. I'm determined to fight back now in exactly the same way. To help me calculate the contractual interest.......Does anybody know what the mathematics are for working out interest at 29.5%/11.5%/9.5%? I think I'm right in saying that for 8% it is 'CHARGE x DAYS x 0.00022'. It would be great to know the figure for the other rates. Unfortunately, I've never used Excel before, so am working on manual spreadsheets at the moment to work out the charges and interest incurred...once the basic figures are worked out I can try putting them into one of the spreadies on the site to calculate interest, but it would be good for me to make the manual calculations aswell if possible. Thanks again all and best wishes!

Thank you Guido T - it's great to feel that someone is on your side. The Business account was sole trader. The claim was sent to my name and not the name of the business (although my name is part of the full business name - equivalent to 'Gandolfi Contemporary Architecture' or similar). Yes, I do also have a personal claim for £1500 + interest incurred + contractual/court interest. This is in addition to the £7200 + interest incurred + contractual/court interest. When the business account went pear-shaped in 2005 Nat West moved funds from the personal account into the business account and closed my personal account. So they are connected in that way. Can I combine them into a single counterclaim? So far I haven't had anything from Cobbetts, just a Nat West correspondance address in Telford that is on the claim form with the Bishopsgate address. I will draft a letter to them informing them of anticipated amended defence. I am away tomorrow, but will be back on friday to pick up responses to this and will work on draft letter then. Thanks again.