really ! - does that interest just keep on ticking up ? Mine's £2.05 per day. Obviously I'm not going to complain about that though ! So, I guess it's time to sit back and wait for the directions from the District Judge to drop on the doormat then. I think a small glass of something to celebrate this first small high court 'victory' is in order though Jon

Greetings Everyone ! Today seems like a pretty good day - I just heard the test case news. As Cobbetts acknowledged service and filed their defence on the 24th July 2007 - (my case was subsequently stayed) - what is likely to happen now ? The way I see it, is that if I had started all of this a month earlier, I would have finished just before the test case started (poor timing on my part, as I waited over a month whilst I got Lloyds to pay up in full [!]) - so I hope that someone here can offer an opinion as to the likely direction from here on in... Also, what about interest ? - is that still running ? from the date of the stay until now ? I hope this doesn't drag on for too much longer... All the best everyone, Jon

Hi Goldlady, Excellent - well done on the first steps - sounds to me like these crooks are running scared - I think you should definitely carry on. Could you please post up your preliminary letter so I can have a quick look (if you don't mind, that is) as I would dearly like to get on their case. We too have paid off our secured loan - feels like I can breathe again now. How did you get a list of the charges please ? If you have a letter for that, I'd love to see that too. If you want to PM me with these, that's fine too. Good luck - I'm rooting for you ! Jon

The BBC article from above states: "Mr Rabinowitz went on to deny that the banks' current terms and conditions - some of which have been rewritten in the last few months - were a cosmetic attempt to disguise the truth." Our household has recently received 3 sets of updated terms and conditions (from 2 banks) and they have changed and reduced their charges and certainly seem to be concerned with the multiple charges per day issue - I have a case stayed with NatWest and on many days, I received multiple penalties (or do I mean charges for services ?!? - er, NO !) - NatWest, have certainly changed that part of their terms and conditions. My feeling is that each and every bank has changed their terms and conditions in some way or another, in an effort to dilute what may be coming and cover their backs. I sincerely hope that this goes the OFTs way and am trying to follow the case in the media (sometimes tricky, as there's plenty of mis-information around). I am resigned to the fact that this will take many, many months to resolve, but am heartened also by the fact that so much has already been repaid to so many - I can't remember which wise owl on here said it, but that feels like a precedent to me too ! Onwards and upwards and let's all shout our support for the OFT whilst this case is in progress.

Hear, hear - unfortunately, my opinion of these guys is that they are the worst kind of sharks. Their charges are truly *unbelievable* - sky high is really not the phrase. Fernack - my advice would be to really keep tabs on this account - watch them at every stage - demand answers - if you can, use their fax number - or write - for any questions or answers as their phone service is simply another way of them making money (0870 number - straight to hold - for up to 30 mins - then you talk to an uninformed, illegible call-fielder (!) - sounds like a [problem] to me). Better still, if you have a solicitor, or know of one, use a solicitor - that is the only way we got answers from GE regarding our redemption figure - they completely ignored us for weeks on end - when I instructed a solicitor to contact them for a figure, the paperwork dropped on our doormat within a week. Of course, I have been stung by these clowns, and this is simply my opinion - you may have no problems with them whatsoever - just don't let them get away with anything. Message for GoldLady - if you could post with any news, I'd be grateful, as after seeing your thread, I am determined to get every single charge and as much of the ERC (perhaps Early Redemption Penalty [ERP] would be a better term) back as I possibly can ... Thanks, Jon

Hi Goldlady, We too have a secured loan with GE Home Lending (I won't say what I really think of them). We are paying our loan off in the next 14 days. We have a bunch of charges from a year ago, and will also be paying the early repayment penalty. I am very familiar with reclaiming current account charges, as I have previously won against Lloyds TSB and have a huge case stayed against NatWest. But, I'm unsure how to procede against GE once the loan is repayed. Could you offer me some advice please ? One other thing - here's a lovely bit of small-print that's been applied to our account: in May this year GE performed a valuation of our house (unarranged and un-notified) - I presume it was a "2nd gear valuation" - they then charged us £50 for the service - and apparently it's all in the terms and conditions : - they leave me speechless... thanks, Jon

No joy folks - the District Judge ordered that my application to lift the stay fail. The solicitor NatWest sent along dropped a "Skeleton Argument for the Defendant" into my hands 5 minutes before the hearing (nice - not !). I argued against two of the 11 points but to no avail. This document does include a couple of useful snippets though... one is the OFT case will consist of "a two week trial in the Commercial Court commencing 14 January 2008" The DJ altered the wording of my stay to reflect that settlement should be made within 28 days of the outcome of this test case. So there we have the dates... The second point worth mentioning is that in defence of the injunctions sought in the application to lift the stay their document states: "...the alternative injunctions sought by the Claimant would alter the status quo. It is simply not feasible for the Bank to give an undertaking to turn off its unauthorised overdraft charges system in respect of one account..." - is it me or is that it in black and white, that their charges are computerised ? Anyway, I tried and lost - let's keep our fingers and toes crossed for the end of January ! All the best and thanks so much for all your help. If anybody needs to see this skeleton argument, I could scan and post it here - it doesn't say Without Prejudice. Jon

Found the terms and conditions now (1992, 2002 and 2006 all seem reasonably relevant to my case) - so ignore previous post please. One final question though - will this appearance in court actually involve me standing up in front of a judge and taking an oath - and then arguing against a qualified solicitor ? nervously yours, Jon

I'm still struggling with Terms and Conditions - any advice ? - should I write to or ring Cobbetts again prior to Thursday - or just take the most recent set of T&Cs I can find online ? Thanks Jon

even a court bundle ? If so, Steven, could you point me at a link to the bundle and also to the most relevant terms and conditions for me (account opened in 1989, overdraft first agreed 1992/3 - never had advantage gold status). I asked Cobbetts for T&Cs as you can see from my earlier posts, but nothing has ever materialised - so maybe I should add that to my argument. Sorry to rattle on, but my nerves are starting to jangle a bit ! Many thanks, Jon

Hi everyone, It's getting very close to my court date now (Thursday 20th) and I am getting a little nervous and have a question... Do I just take information regarding my application for the lifting of the stay, or should I be going armed with *everything* - from statements right up to a court bundle ? I feel encouraged by the news this weekend that some banks have reduced their charges by up to a third and am also going to take along my letter from NatWest saying they would deal with my claim in 6-7 weeks from my prelim. letter - that would have actually been between the 13th and 20th of July (according to *their* timescale - in other words a week before the OFT test-case was announced - they obviously never intended to deal with it) - I have a feeling that I'm going to be banging my head up against the wall with this court appearance, but will do my best. If anyone has any advice as to what to take in or what to say (other than what's already in the application for the stay lifting) or literally *anything* then I'd love to hear it. Nervously, Jon

Yes - sorry - it has been stayed. The text I posted earlier today was the response to my application for the stay to be lifted (using the CAG template). So, should I still ring the court ? or does anyone have any other answers in the light of the fact that there definitely is a stay in place ? Thanks, Jon

getting near the bottom of the first page now, so......... Bumpity bump ! J

Hi everyone, Been away for a week and I have received a letter from the court..... .............................................................................................................. Notice of CLAIMANT'S APPLICATION In the BRISTOL County Court, Date: 16th August 2007 TAKE NOTICE that the CLAIMANT'S APPLICATION will take place on 20th September 2007 at 11:00 AM (court address appears next) When you should attend. 30 MINUTES has been allowed for the CLAIMANT'S APPLICATION. Please Note: This case may be released to another Judge, possibly at a different Court. ...................................................................................................................... There is a copy of my application attached. Could somebody hold my hand a bit here please ? !! - does this mean what I think it means ? - am I actually appearing in Court ? If so (or even if not), what is my next move and how do I prepare for this ? I am ok with this, but do need advice as to what will happen next and what I need to do in order to be prepared for this next stage... Thanks (in anticipation !), Jon

I have a similar order (stayed until 30th November 2007) - I am going to the court this morning to apply for the removal of this stay. I suppose that's all we can do - we seem to have fallen between two stools here - right near the end of court proceedings, yet no payout in sight (maybe for months/years). I know how you feel - just like the rug's been pulled from under you. I say, apply to remove the stay and keep everything crossed - that's what I'm gonna do. All the best, Jon p.s. been watching your thread with interest ! (Not the 8% type !)

Oh dear - I'll keep my fingers crossed then and do it anyway. Thanks Steven

Just a quick question, as I am going to the court tomorrow to put in my application for the removal of the stay (£35 I believe): Has anybody had a stay lifted ? (any advice would be useful) - and - in the light that the District Judge has quoted the OFT High-Court case, what are my chances of having the stay lifted ? I am away from the afternoon of the 9th until the 16th, but will have a laptop with me, so will check this site for answers/advice/developments. All the best, Jon

Many thanks Steven - I think I will apply for the stay to be lifted, as I was _so_ close to the finishing post ......... I'll report back here with any developments. All the best, Jon

Ok everyone, it's here - the STAY, that is.......... The letter is dated: 31 July 2007 and court stamped. ................................................................................................................................ Before DISTRICT JUDGE EXTON sitting at Bristol County Court, (address given) Upon reading the court file IT IS ORDERED THAT 1) In view of the fact that there are current proceedings before the High Court which should be determinative of the issues raised in these proceedings, this action shall be stayed until 30th November 2007. It is, of course, open to any party to apply for a removal of the stay. If, within 28 days of the expiry of the stay no party has asked that further directions be given the action shall be struck out, presumed settled. Dated 30th July 2007 .............................................................................................................................. Right - I have a couple of questions... 1) Is the current advise to apply for the stay to be removed ? If so, can somebody point me at the template (unless it's still the one in the Library) 2) The fact that the stay is until 30th November 2007 - all the information I've read about this High Court case, indicates that it is likely to take many months, if not years(!). In the light of this timescale imposed by the District Judge, and the last bit of the direction about "within 28 days" (presumably after the 30th November) if I or NatWest haven't asked for further directions to be given, the case will be struck out, presumed settled. Does this mean that the DJ has info' from the court grapevine, that this is the timescale for the test case, or should I get some sort of application for further directions together ? Is asking for these "further directions" the same as applying for the stay to be lifted ? Any answers gratefully received ! Cheers everyone, Jon

Hi everyone, This morning I received the following letter from the court ... ......................................................................................... Dear Sir/Madam, (obvious template ?) Please find enclosed a copy of the defence which has been filed by the defendant. Due to your case being a bank charges claim, allocation questionnaires have been dispensed with, and the file has been referred to the District Judge for directions. We will inform you of the Judge's directions as soon as the file is returned to us. If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us. Yours faithfully, Case Management Section .................................................................................................... My N1 was deemed served on the 7th July. Does this mean that I will have to wait for the outcome of the OFT case ? or (as my mail today seems to all have been posted on the 25th) has my case already gone off to the district Judge and will it progress normally ? I assume that the answer is that I will have to wait - I read this morning that this (OFT high court) case could take up to a year (or more ) I know that everyone wants these answers, but what is the word on the street ? ........ All the best, Jon

Thanks for that Hedgey - I will remain strong and confident ! Do I do anything now ? - should I respond to Cobbetts acknowledging their defence ? As I already sent them a schedule of charges with my CPR 4.6© request - do I need to send them another ? One final question - will the next contact be from the court ? Many thanks, Jon

Another update ... I received the defence from Cobbetts this morning Could someone please, please have a look at it and let me know if it's a standard defence or out of the ordinary - also, what do I do now ? I was feeling *so* confident about all of this, but this arriving today has spooked me rather. Any help and advice will be most appreciated. Thanks. Here is the defence: ..................................................................................... IN THE XXXXXXX COUNTY COURT CLAIM NO. XXXXXXXX BETWEEN: NotWatson -and - NATIONAL WESTMINSTER BANK PLC DEFENCE 1 This Defence is filed and served without prejudice to the Defendant's case that the Particulars of Claim do not disclose reasonable grounds for bringing a claim against the Defendant to recover the bank charges (and interest thereon) referred to in the Particulars of Claim or any other sum(s). In the event that the Claim is not properly particularised then the Defendant will apply to strike out the claim and/or for summary judgement in respect of the same. 2 On allocation the Defendant invites the court to direct that there be a case management conference in order for the court to consider the making of appropriate orders to give the Claimant the opportunity to properly particularise the claim. 3 No admissions are made as to what charges have been debited to the Claimant's bank account. 4 In relation to the allegation that the bank charges amount to an unenforceable penalty the Defendant pleads as follows: 4.1 In order for the Claimant to sustain a claim that the charges debited by the Defendant are in the nature of a penalty the Claimant will need to plead and prove (a) the clause(s) pursuant to which the charges were applied; (b) that the charges were applied due to a breach of contract by the Claimant; and © identifying in each case the particular breach of contract (by reference to appropriate term(s) of the contract) that the charge related to. As presently pleaded the claim does not plead these matters and therefore does not disclose reasonable grounds for bringing a claim that all or any of the charges referred to in the Particulars of Claim have been applied pursuant to an unenforceable penalty clause. 4.2 Until such time as the Claimant pleads the matters referred to in paragraph 4.1 above the Defendant is unable to plead to the claim brought against it and therefore (pending the provision of full and proper particulars of the claim) at this stage denies that any charges have been applied to the Claimant's bank account pursuant to unenforceable penalty clauses. 5 In relation to the allegation that the contractual provisions pursuant to which the charges have been applied are invalid pursuant to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 ("the Regulations"). 5.1 The Claimant is required to identify the contractual provision(s) that the Claimant alleges are invalid by reference to the Regulations. Until such time as these provisions are identified the Defendant cannot (save as appears below) plead to the allegation referred to in paragraph 5 above. The Defendant therefore reserves its right to plead further to the allegation once (and if) the Claimant identifies the relevant contractual provisions. 5.2 In relation to the case of the Claimant that the contractual provisions are invalid pursuant to the Regulations the Defendant pleads as follows: 5.2.1 Schedule 2 to the Regulations is an Indicative and non-exhaustive list of terms which may be regarded as unfair (emphasis supplied). 5.2.2 If the Claimant is to rely upon paragraph 1(e) of Schedule 2 to the Regulations then the Claimant is required to plead and prove in relation to each bank charge that is sought the matters referred to in paragraph 5.1 above and all facts and matters relied upon in alleging that the sums paid are disproportionately high. 5.2.3 In the circumstances no grounds are disclosed for a claim that the contractual provisions (whatever they are alleged to be - see paragraph 5.1 above) falls foul of the Regulations and in particular paragraph 1(e) of Schedule 2. 5.2.4 The Defendant is therefore unable (save as appears below) to plead to this allegation beyond denying that any bank charges have been applied pursuant to terms which contravene the Regulations. The Defendant reserves its right to plead further to this allegation once (and if) the particulars referred to in paragraph 5.2.2 above are provided. 5.2.5 Without prejudice to paragraph 5.2.4 it is the case of the Defendant that the Regulations have no application because the charges amount to payment for services provided by the Defendant and the adequacy (or otherwise) of consideration paid under a contract for services is not an issue to be judged by reference to principles of fairness under the Regulations. 6 The Claimant's claim for costs not being sufficiently particularised, the Defendant is unable to plead and reserves the right to plead upon further particulars. 7 Save as hereinbefore appears the Defendant joins issue with the Claimant on the claim(s) and denies that it is liable to the Claimant as alleged or at all. Statement of Truth The Defendant believes that the facts stated in this Defence are true. I am duly authorised by the Defendant to sign this statement. Full name: Name deleted (by NotWatson) Name of Defendants solicitor's firm: Cobbetts LLP, 58 Mosley Street, Manchester, M2 3HZ (Ref: RMDW/RR01362.6928) Signed (Signature) DATED this 24 day of July 2007 ................................................................................................... That's it - I hope someone can have a look through to check it for me and to let me know what (if anything) I should do next. Also, note the letter that I sent (copied 2 posts above this one) has not been responded to yet. Many, many thanks, Jon

Thanks Steven - although the credit for the above letter really goes to you - your advice is rock solid. Many thanks. I hope that they react and actually send me something useful. Like I say, thanks for all the advice - before I found this website, I thought that CPR 18 and CPR 4.6© were robots from Star Wars !! Many thanks, Jon

Hi everyone Another update. As I now have a claim number, I've written to Cobbetts requesting terms and conditions under CPR pre-action protocol 4.6© as Steven suggested above. In the same letter I've pre-empted their CPR 18 request, by giving them the account details which the claim relates to and enclosing a schedule of charges. Here's the letter I sent today by Special Delivery.... ................................................................................................... Cobbetts LLP 58 Mosley Street Manchester M2 3HZ Re: Claim No: xxxxxxxx Your Ref.: xxx/xxx/xxxxxxx-xxxx Dear Sir/Madam, I hereby acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 10th July 2007, as Acknowledgement of Service of the above claim. I have also received confirmation of this Acknowledgement of Service from xxxxxx County Court. I have requested that your client provide me with copies of the Terms and Conditions in operation at the time my bank account was opened in October 1989 and in August 1994 when my overdraft facility was first put in place. However, I have not received either of these documents from your client as of today. Therefore, I am requesting the Terms and Conditions (T&Cs) in operation at the time my account was opened in 1989 and also in 1994 under CPR Pre-Action Protocol 4.6©. As a further matter of clarification, I hereby confirm that the charges I am claiming were applied to the following account: Account Name: NotWatson Account number: xxxxxxxx Sort Code: xx-xx-xx Please also find enclosed a breakdown of all charges I am claiming. Yours Faithfully NotWatson Encl.: Schedule of charges relating to claim no. xxxxxxxx (Your ref. xxx/xxx/xxxxxxx-xxxx) .................................................................................................... Any thoughts ? - was this a dumb idea ? Onwards (the calendar is still ticking !!) All the best everyone, Jon

Update again: I received Cobbetts LLP acknowledgement of Service today - dated 10/07/07. So, they have until 04/08/07 to file their defence. Hands up who thinks they will defend ! Thanks to all the superb advice on this forum, I feel very well prepared for this. Onwards ! Jon