Thanks everyone for their support and words of congratulations. If IT does decide to appeal then we will cross that bridge when we come to it. I think that IT is contradicting himself (itself) when it stated in court that it has no files or documents in support of his IT's defence, as IT's solicitors had lost the file. The judge commented by saying that how odd it was for solicitors to have mislaid the file as it has been 6 years yet.

I think you mean "as it has NOT been 6 years yet".

Solicitors are bound by law to keep files for NINE years, as that's the statute of limitations on professional negligence.

The judge also commented that I had received very bad legal advice from both my solicitor and barrister, she also went on to say that she believed that I was bullied in to making the consent order on the 3rd Feb 99. IT continuosly kept bringing the old proceedings in and said to the judge that this case was over 14 years old, but the judge said that this was a fresh claim and had nothing to do with the previous proceedings. The judge said that the case in 05 was struck out and did not even proceed to trial as it was so poorly put together and submitted. The judge also commented and said that the case did not proceed to trial and was only struck out and I thought that she was giving me a hint there, that there was a chance of re-opening the 05 case, maybe under undue influence, as I was under a lot of pressure to come up with the funds or else I would have lost my house.

Possibly but such a case would be VERY expensive to run and would require a Solicitor to lodge an appeal. Personally I wouldn't bother (unless you win the lottery and have unlimited funds to run such a case).

It's not about the money its the fact that I won for now. If only I could have taken a picture of IT and IT junior in years it would be worth millions. You see IT lives in this town and has done many many people over. This is a small victory for me which I am very grateful, but a drop in the ocean for all the heartache that IT has put me and my family through.

It starts with such small victories. Let's hope IT & IT's son are on a losing streak now!

If IT does decide to appeal then I know what IT's intentions will be, IT will try and bring the old proceedings and rent arrears claim forward. If IT does believe me I will have an answer for every questions that IT will raise. This is going beyond a joke, and IT does this kind of thing for a living that how IT made IT's millions. Good job I did not refer to IT when we were in court, god knows what the judge must have thought.

And IT will have no chance, because that was settled. Whilst you may have a claim that you were under undue influence, IT would not have such a claim.

Also had you referred to IT's behaviour in other matters in the court, the District Judge would have been obligated to strike those statements out and it would have guaranteed IT the right to appeal solely on that basis.

There is a very big picture behind of all of this and if anyone would like to read my story about IT and me please pm and I will be happy to send you it.

I would recommend against this till this is all over.

I was not in a very strong frame of mind yesterday as my mother had pulled her shoulder muscle as was in very bad agony, to be honest I was thinking about her most of the time whilst I was sitting in the courtroom, as she was crying very much before I left for court, but I managed to pull myself together.

Sorry to hear. Hope she gets better soon.

IT was also referring to someting called estopel which I did not have the foggiest what IT was on about. IT was coming out with so much legal garbage that I really wanted to smack IT right across the head but know this was not allowed. When I refer to IT I mean that IT did not speak at all throughout the hearing, IT's slimey son was doing all the talking. Such a stuck up pompass nickenpoop.

See Estoppel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basically IT's son was trying to state that your payment prevented you from claiming it back. The reasons that was struck out were twofold:

1) It was never raised in a defence in this claim. A defence cannot be raised for the first time in the hearing.

2) It was clear that you were intimidated into paying it in the first place.

In my opinion the claim of estoppel might have been the only defence that would mean anything in this claim. Whilst I believe you would have still succeeded in your claim, the defence of estoppel would have been the only possibly remotely valid part of a defence in this claim; and if an appeal is lodged is likely to be the basis of it.

Very well done all concerned, I really look forward to hearing that you have cleared funds and that this is well and truly done with.

Me too.

But somehow, I don't think it is......yet!!

Unfortunately I have to agree here.

Thanks for the support spamheed, only time will tell now.

As usual it's the waiting game!

The term Estoppel has reared it's head a few times lately on the forum. This is the best descriptor I can find :-

 

Estoppel is a doctrine of law to prevent or bar some assertion of fact or law by party. Estoppel applied when two statements present a contradiction with the result that the earlier is taken as the truth. An application of the doctrine prevents a defendant setting up the true set of facts (namely represented by its change of position), and force the defendant to accept the set of facts as represented by him. Therefore, estoppel precludes a person from asserting something contrary to what is implied by his or her previous action or statement or by a previous judicial determination concerning that person. Put another way, and generally speaking, when parties proceed on a common assumption of either fact or law, neither of the parties will be permitted to go back on the common assumption arising from the representation when it would be unfair or just for him to do so. Whether or not the common understanding arises from a mistake or misrepresentation is immaterial.

 

There are a number of types of estoppel in English law.

1. Estoppel in pais, which is subdivided into estoppel by representation and estoppel by representation. Estoppel in pais is generally considered to comprise equitable forbearance and proprietary estoppel.
   
2. Promissory estoppel.
   
3. Estoppel by convention.
   
4. Estoppel per rem judicatam has two forms: cause of action estoppel and issue estoppel; the doctrine of merger applies to English judgments but not foreign judgments.
   

This broad genus of estoppels operate to set up a state of facts that play a crucial role in altering what would otherwise be the legal rights of the parties, as the rights of the parties are judged by a different set of facts. The relevant estoppel may be used to set up a cause of action, provide a defense to a cause of action or have some other decisive effect on evidence causing a claim to succeed or fail.

In England, most forms of estoppel may only be used as a shield to a claim rather than as a sword. This is a reference to nature of the most forms of estoppel, namely that estoppel is a rule of evidence that prevents a party asserting facts that either give rise to a claim or allow a party to defend a claim. This is not to say that estoppel cannot be used either offensively or defensively, that is by either a defendant or a claimant.

Once the estoppel has been made out, a court will prevent the estopped party adducing or relying on evidence which contradicts the truth of the representation. In this way, the legal rights of the parties and consequences thereof are judged by the facts represented, and not in accordance with the true state of affairs.

The exceptions to the general rule are proprietary estoppel and equitable forbearance, which grant substantive rights and may be used as a sword. Moreover, some commentators suggest that the two forms of estoppel per judicatam are not estoppels at all. Whether or not they are is a moot point, as the affect of these types of estoppel are well understood under the principles of res judicata.

 

The common factors to the different forms of estoppel are:

1. A representation. The requisite form of representation varies from estoppel to estoppel. Sometimes a statement of fact or required sometimes mere belief or promise and in fewer instances, silence or other passive conduct.
    
   In some instances a clear and unequivocal representation is required, in the sense that it is reasonably understood in by the person to whom it is addressed, so that the addressee was not left in any doubt as to the meaning. Thus the representation may be required to be unqualified, precise and unambiguous, in circumstances where it is unlikely that addressee would have interpreted them differently. There is authority to say that the representation does not have to have only one interpretation, provided that the meanings other than that relied upon by the claimant is far-fetched and strained.
    
   Identifying or ascertaining a representation discharging the requirements of the form of estoppel relied usually presents the most difficulty in establishing a cause of action.
   
2. Reliance upon the representation.
   
3. A causative link between the representation and the person asserting that an estoppel ought to apply in the circumstances: the innocent party must have acted differently as a result of the representation.
   
4. That reliance caused material detriment, if the correctness of the representation is denied.
   

Usage: The claim by the defendant that the claimant would not enforce the contract amounted to an estoppel upon the claimant, as the defendant had relied on the statement by the claimant and changed his position to his detriment.

Very well explained, but to clarify:

The Defendant would be relying on 'estoppel by convention' - see: Estoppel by Convention | London Litigation & disputes law firm describes estoppel by convention - however frettful38 would be able to argue intimidation, and lack of agreement (i.e. lack of estoppel) due to the disputes raised almost immediately after payment.

In practical terms I have heard of user's thinking of using an estoppel to prevent a Credit Card Issuer who has lost a CCA case from coming back with another form of attack.

 

Complicated isn't !

 

Lex

Can be very complicated, but in practical terms is simple. Estoppel in such a case can be very hard to fight though. I have used estoppel with success on a few occasions. It's a very hard to fight argument though.

What a saga.

So true!

Hope the cash arrives soon and you can sit back and enjoy it.

Amen!

Young it and old it sound like a couple of real charmers lets hope they get what they deserve.

Amen!

Hmm thanks I'll squirrel that one away after a CC firm told me they werent seeking to enforce the agreement.

 

S.

That's slightly different from what Mr. Lex was pointing to but would be an easier estoppel to claim.

Well done and interesting read. I also noticed the appeal possibility. Didn't the judge refuse permission to appeal at the last hearing.

twofoot, If you read the posts you will notice that even when permission to appeal is refused, a request can still be lodged with the higher court.

The way all permissions to appeal work is that a request is made with the judge hearing the case. That judge will only grant leave to appeal if he/she feels there are issues of public importance or it may requre a higher court to delve deeper into complex issues.

Even if permission to appeal is refused - detailing the grounds, the request is lodged with the higher court, and then a higher judge goes through it and either hears it & then makes a decision on if to hear an appeal or not; rejects it outright; or accepts that there may be grounds for appeal and schedules an appeal hearing.

The exact routes to appeal a small claims verdict I am unsure of though.

I just spent nearly 2 hours reading 37 pages for the result even though I seen the **won** in the title lol. Was still interesting though and congratulations

You must be a real bored sod:p

Hi LP damn I forgot that important part in all the happiness. In total I was awarded 4859.97. I believe 3420.00 + 1427.00 interest. I have written down the breakdown and will get out in a bit. But the total awarded was 4859.97.

Excellent!

Now we wait!

Let us know when you get the court order, and when you either get a cheque or a Notice of Appeal (or whatever it's called) from IT.

If you get a cheque, photocopy it, and then deposit it into your account. Only 6 working days later (whether it clears before or not) is this finally over, as only that stage can it not be taken back out of your account.

An Appeal can be lodged within 28 days I believe. Maybe somebody else has time to check into the rules of Appeal from small claims decisions (part one of requesting from the presiding district judge is dispensed with) and could post it up here?

I know, but I do think that it is unfair that I was not allowed to claim for costs, as I believe that IT was beyond unreasonable and I think the judge should have seen that IT was too. I mean how long has this been going on for?

Not in itself a definition of unreasonable behaviour unfortunately. A long delay was your fault unfortunately.

HOW MUCH???

Well done Frettful and LP

 

It's my pleasure to give you a **WON** badge for you title !!

Ta!

After 37 pages! About bloody time too!

judgment In Favour Of Claimant, I Won !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

About bloody time too! How much exactly?

wooooooo hooooooooooo WTG congratulations to you both

I sincerely hope it's over though! Sorry for being the pessimist, but this isn't over till the money's cleared in frettful38's account.

Well done and thank goodness for that otherwise I could see LP having a seizure.

True!

Perhaps Admin could amend the title to WON.

Requested.

Thanks hallowitch, wow what a day and I am so relieved that it is over.

Sorry to put a dampener on celebrations, but not over yet!

Well done. Congratulations:D

Yup! I'm sure IT's face turned into kurva:p

Now you MUST give us every gory detail of what happened:)

We mean EVERY gory detail frettful38! You haven't even written the amount!

Was interest given? Total amount is?

Great idea surprise. I arrived at the hearing at 1.45p.m. I telephoned in the morning as LP advised at 11.30a.m to make sure the hearing was to go ahead and it was.

 

IT & IT junior had arrived before me. We were called in at 2.15p.m. Same District Judge as previous hearings. My god, if only I could have recorded the hearing. I was changing more colors than the rainbow. Mostly staying red. The judge began by saying that I had the right to appeal e.t.c if my case was dismissed and I would have to go before a circuit judge. I cannot remember the exact words she said.

 

Then she asked me if I had any questions for the Defendant and I replied that I wanted an explanation as to why IT had demanded the sum of 6191.80. To which IT junior replied that I should have bought this matter up in the 2005 hearing. I did not have anything more to ask IT and the judge then asked IT if it had any questions. That's where the fun started, IT started asking me so many questions and they were all relating to the 2005 hearing, to which the judge interrupted and said that this case had no bearing to the 2005 case.

 

The IT junior gave the judge a page with information regarding Henderson-v-Henderson case and Muhammad Nazmal Hussein case which I had no nowledge of. IT junior told the judge that I was abusing the court process and that my claim should be struck out and dismissed. The judge then replied that IT should not have charged interest on the 2758.60 and it was illegal of them to have done that.

 

I was not allowed to claim for costs, as the judge said that she did not believe that IT had been unreasonable. When the judge said she was ready to make her judgment I was about to faint. The judge made her judgment at 3.45p.m. She said that she is awarding judgment in favor of the claimant. Then IT junior said that they would appeal to which the judge said that their appeal is refused.

 

I could not believe what I was hearing and to be honest it still has not sunk in yet. I took my brother with me and when I heard the judge's decision I kicked my brother under the table as I was so happy. It was a long hearing and these are just a few of the details. I will post up more once I get my head around all of what happened. The judge told IT that they should make payment within 14 days and I will be receiving the court order within a few days and I will post up.

 

All in all a very good result and a very good day. :D:D:D:D

 

All the hard work and praises go to LP as I would never ever have got this far without him. God Bless you LP.

Whilst right to appeal has been refused that doesn't mean much. They can still lodge an appeal which can take a while to deal with. It's not over till you have the cleared funds!

So keep the folder and everything, don't go out to spend all the money just yet!

Have a small booze as today was a good result, bringing you a few steps closer to justice; but till funds are clear in your account, it ain't over!

Wow.

 

That is fabtastic.

 

I would love to have been a fly on the wall watching this.

Doubt it! IT's fiery anger would have probably killed you - literally!

Trust me you would have had so much fun:p

I'd have loved to be there to fight the costs for you!

So IT committed an unlawful act by adding interest and the Judge said he hadn't acted unreasonable and so you didn't get costs! Contradiction in itself I would have thought, but hey ho, I don't think we will ever understand the British Judicial system.

Technically unlawful & unreasonable are not one and the same. Judicially that isn't a contradiction, though I think I would've got some costs against IT had I been there.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!

One way of putting it

I ain't popping the corkscrew yet, but WELL DONE frettful38!

Before I get onto other things tonight, what's the amount IT was ordered to pay you?

Ok well when you have time can you?

I've said I will when I can.

Ok LP. Anything I can work on in he mean time? June is a long way away.

 

Also, I cannot find your explanation of what I'll be suing for anywhere. Please can you explain? I am completely lost.

I am really much too busy to go through this again at the moment!

LP, you deserve a holiday more than anyone I can think of ... just leave a forwarding email address for desperate Caggers

Thanx DB!

I'll be online but will only be assisting with urgent issues that arise on threads I am currently helping with!

hi LP, you haven't forgotten about me have you?

How could I?

Did you read my posts? If you did you know what you have to do - start a new thread regarding the loss of earnings linking to this thread.

But I'm not going to be able to help till June at the earliest. It's Passover in 2 weeks and I'm going on holiday - for the first time in almost 4 years 3 weeks after Passover till the end of May. And I have craploads of work and studying to do before then.

Letters signed for by both MBNA and Virgin today from Royal Mail website.

 

I will keep you informed when i hear any more.

 

Thanks

Great.

Court papers have been delivered and signed for.

 

I will send Virgin and MBNA tomorrow morning.

Good.

Will do LP, I have kept all copies of special delivery receipts safely. I will only contact you if it is important by pm and send you a link as you have advised. Apart from that wish me luck, and thank you from the bottom of my heart. I sincerely am very grateful for everything you have done.

You've thanked me enough for now ! Let's wait till this saga is over!

Hopefully things will come to an end next Thusrday and I will have something to celebrate and then I will take you out for a slap up meal and drink:D

Amen! Any "payment" must be approved by the CAG mods and be Kosher (in both senses of the word). Anything would be muchas gracias but is unnecessary. I did not do this with the intent of any payment of any form.

BLOODY GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!

LP I think you have done more than enough, in fact beyond enough in helping me with my battle against IT and IT junior. I have posted off the schedule of costs as advised special delivery.

I have kept a copy for myself in my folder, one sent to the court and one sent to IT. I cannot think of any further questions that I need to ask, save that if I do get a response from IT before the hearing next week, what am I suppose to do. The only thing I can think of is that he may write an confirm that he is willing to make me a offer a few days before the hearing. I understand you will be busy, so my only question would be what should I do if IT writes and makes me an offer days before the hearing?

Make sure to keep copies of the cover letters inside your folder too.

In such a case post up here, AND PM me with the subject "URGENT: OFFER MADE BY IT" and I will do my absolute utmost to come here to look at it. Post a direct link to the relevant post in the thread, because I may be accessing the net on my mobile which is considerably slower.

But please, ONLY PM me if an URGENT matter has arisen, and post the details on the thread NOT in the PM. Just a summary should be in the PM with a DIRECT link to the post (or at minimum page) with the URGENT issue that has arisen.

Also keep copies of Special Delivery receipts.

When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water.

LOL:-D

I actually ducked then...expecting a very scathing swipe from LP;)

LOL;)

Ok frettful38, here goes the prep for the hearing.

But before I do: I'm EXTREMELY busy at the moment! Please gather your thoughts together TODAY and post ANY questions you have TONIGHT before 7pm, and I'll do my utmost to respond tonight - same goes for anybody else who has questions or advice that might assist frettful38 - as beyond then I seriously doubt I'll be able to respond before the hearing.

I know the hearing isn't till a week tomorrow, but I won't be available for most of the next week, so please do your utmost to raise ANY queries TONIGHT!

In the morning of the day of the hearing, relax! Do whatever it takes; booze, food, anything! Just don't go ****ed !

If IT or IT's son approaches you in court, refuse to speak to them but POLITELY! If the clerk says that the hearing has been adjourned for whatever reason, POLITELY insist that you go before a Judge to object. If necessary, POLITELY speak to the court manager, customer services manager or senior listings clerk (otherwise called head of district judge's listings section or head of dj listings section).

You might want to call in around 11:30am on the day to make sure the hearing is going ahead. Speak to DJ Listings when checking this.

BE FIRM, BUT POLITE AT ALL TIMES!!!!!!

REVIEW THE WHOLE FILE, AND HAVE ALL PAPERS IN ORDER BEFORE YOU GO!!!!!!!!!

There is nothing more I can add to this lengthy thread of 35 pages bar to say: BLOODY GOOD LUCK, WE'RE ALL ROOTING FOR YOU!!!!!!!!

If I could be there I would, but my schedule unfortunately doesn't permit.

Now back to studying! Ugh!

Is this 385 quid included in the costs?

Can't be! It was due to the OP's incompetence that this costs order was made, it can't be claimed back now! Doesn't work that way!

I will as always rest assured LP I will

Soz, but I won't "rest assured" till this nightmare is over!

Thank you LP I will do this right now and send off SD. Soon as I have done so I will report back, later on this evening and thanks so much for everything.

Just make sure YOU FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTIONS TO THE LETTER!!!!!!!!!

Almost forgot.

Attach a copy of the letter sent to IT & IT's son re: settlement to the back of the bundle.

Please advise when dealt with and dispatched.

Ok. Cover letters now.

Fill in the details and replace the '...' with the correct details as well as your name at the end of each letter.

Print on your own letterhead, TWO copies of each. Sign all copies. One of each goes into your folder. One for the court goes with one bundle of the Schedule of Costs, as does one copy for IT. Envelope and address them both and send SPECIAL Delivery TODAY.

1) Court:

Hi frettful38,

I have uploaded the proposed Schedule of Costs for your hearing on 18th March 2010 at 2pm.

Save it on your computer and do the following.

1) Top right of Page 1. Replace the '...' with the Claim Number.

2) Replace the '...' centred above Claimant and below Between with your full name in CAPITALS.

3) Replace the '...' centred above Defendant and below -And- with IT's full name in CAPITALS.

4) Replace the '...' before '- Claimant' on the last line in the second page with your full name (not in capitals, but as you would normally write it, for example: Miss. Fretting Always)

Save it.

Print 3 copies.

Sign each copy.

One copy goes into your folder.

Next post will deal with cover letters.

scheduleofcostsnewhearing.rtf

Hi LP sorry was offline yesterday, had a very bad coughing fit. I am ready whenever you are to send off the documents.

 

Hearing is definitely for the 18th March 2010 at 2.00p.m. I have the Notice of Trial hanged up on the wall in front of me, and the last hearing was def on the 4th Dec 09. I think everyone who has been reading this thread should also put in for costs as this is really getting more than ridiculous now and it has to stop soon..

frettful38,

You misread my posts above - which are now sorted. The date I was unsure about was the previous hearing, not the 18th March one which I know of. But surprise has confirmed the previous hearing for me and pointed me to the page where I double checked it, so that's sorted.

I don't think it would be possible for everybody who has been on this thread to seek costs; there is no legal obligation for people to be on the thread; but was a nice idea.

Will be back shortly with the Schedule of Costs.

I would pay to watch you guys beat this sucker.

Great idea - frettful38, want to sell tickets to the hearing?

haha nice idea but I'd just be happy for both you and LP to have this put to bed asap.

 

S.

So would I! 34 pages!!!!!!!!

frettful38,

All's ready. I will upload it and go through it with you when you are ready. The sooner the better please.

I want you to send it off with a short cover letter to IT & the court tomorrow (10th March 2010) by SPECIAL Delivery so that it arrives exactly 1 week before the scheduled hearing.

Let me know when you're available,

legalpickle

Hi all.

Hi

Well it has taken a few hours to read this thread but it has been in bits.

Boy, you must be bored if you had the patience to rid through this movie script!

LP l also thought you were older but trust me your not as old as me well i will be 29 in June.

I trust you, but I have a feeling I am older inside; I think I had the insides of a 60yr old placed into a 29yr old's body

FF i would like to compliment you on how you have handled IT and IT JNR. I dont know of either of them but l can safley say l also would not have backed down on my demands for everything in writing.

I second that.

Go get the ITS on the 18th I will be thinking of you and wishing you well.

Thanks and seconded!

Thank you GM for your kind words and support, very much appreciated. I really wish that IT would give in before the hearing, but as IT and IT junior are such stubborn jackasse's I don't see any chance of that happening.

At least you're prepared for it to not happen.

Well I'll just have to see how things go, knowing IT the way I do I wander how many more more rabbits IT's got left in IT's hat, anyways 9 days left and counting. When I went to the very first hearing I'm surprised the judge did not hear my knees knocking as I was so nervous, and now I have come so far with many kicks up the bum from LP and am calm as a cucumber.

Pickled cucumber I hope Lol

LP are you sure that your not an ex army Commander, because your advice is nothing short of military training:D. Mind you guess I needed that to prepare for this battle against IT and IT junior, I'm armered up and my tank is ready to FIREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

I am not an ex-military commander, nope. I was in the IDF but only for basic training in artillery.

And my training is VERY different from military training! Trust me!

Keep up the good work guys. Not long to go now. We are all routing for you.

Thanks kurvaface! Amen!

At least you will be on your guard for your next appearance and I would stick to your guns this time and if they do want to postpone for any reason you should have your speech prepared for the Judge so as they don't get away with any further delays.

Exactly! frettful38, you better stick to your guns on this one. If they adjourn ask for costs, including travel costs and your time, and if the District Judge insists on an adjournment, insist - respectfully - on the District Judge making it the last adjournment, and refusing any further adjournments for the Defendant considering this would be the 3rd.

Thanks surprise, I think LP will make a great speech to present before the judge minus all the swearing

No need. If there's any attempt at adjournment all you state is the following:

Sir (or Madam, if it's a female District Judge),

This matter has been in the court system for more than a year. The hearing on 29th September 2009 was vacated at the last minute - but the matter could have been disposed of then.

Again on 4th December 2009 the hearing was vacated, despite the matter being on the small claims track and the Defendant not being obliged to attend.

I admit that some of the problems were unfortunately my fault, but these have been rectified in August 2009, thus the Defendant has had substantial time to prepare as many documents as necessary to defend this claim, which they clearly cannot do.

Further delaying this hearing would be contrary to the overriding objective and unfair on myself.

I would therefore respectfully request of the court to ensure that this hearing is the last hearing in this matter and seek Judgment against the Defendant.

There are some letters on Page 24 - definitely 4th December.

Ta. Yup, you're right.

Fretful's offline so will answer for her - 4th December 09

Thanks surprise, but are you sure? For some reason I have it as 29th December which doesn't make sense. If you have a few mins to find the post those hearing documents were in (I saved over them by accident) and advise me of the page number, it would be muchas gracias!