PPMAN159: I haven't posted what my original claim was. I was originally claiming for contractual interest which boosted my claim up to £5696.68 as of 29/03/07 - that was why the court costs are higher. They were £250 for the original court cost then £100 for the AQ . In light of the precedent re contractual interest, although I never thought I would get it, it seems a bit like I'm pushing it now if I go to court - particularly if they are offereing almost what an 8% payout would be. So, should I reject their offer but offer to settle for £3428?

Hi jowalshy. The interest is the O/D interest that relates to the charges, not the total amount I have been charged over the years. Thanks

Hi all, In light of this post: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/97691-contractual-interest-precedent-lost.html I am reveiwing one of my claims. I'm due to go to court on Aug 04. My original claim was including contractual interest and from Jan 01 but I didn't file it in court until March 07. DG have replied stating they are ignoring any clims prior to March 01 based on 6 year limit. They have offered me £3056 which according to them includes charges/ interest to date of the letter (they don't specify which interest) and court fee. Now, I have redone my figures taking into account the 6 year limit and the date of their letter and I get: Charges: £2053.50 Interest: £280.72 8% stat:£744.47 Court Fees: £350 Total: £3428.69 Should I carry on taking it to court or should I write and say that I will not claim for the contractual interest and settle for £3428? Or should I just accept their offer? Thanks

@ FF The reason for 3 sheets would be as stated - to get more accurate figures in a way would be similar to the banks method. Say for example you have an agreed limit of £1000 month 1 balance = -£500 thus charges = overdraft fee - CI charged at authorised borrowing rate month 2 balance = -£1500 thus charges = overdraft fee + excee o/d fee - CI charged @ unauthorised rate. This would lead, I believe, to more accurate figures of what was actually owed. That said, I do agree with your argument of unauthorised borrowing! So let's just leave it at that. If I have to argue for it in court I will use the fairness & balance argument. @ Neil I don't beleive it matters what they are questioning - they are just stalling. I can provide the basis of my calculations however I'm not going to unless I'm in front of a judge. The bank will not disclose their calculations so I'm doing the best I can. I would check your figures against the spreadsheet done by Mindzai. I can't comment on your calculations compared to his formula as I haven't interpreted it yet. If they match then all is well. There is of course a risk going to court which is why you must be prepared and understand things. There have been a couple of 'wins' for the banks but if they were so certain, there wouln't be wuite so many 'wins' for the consumer. At present I have two claims and have filed my AQ. One one claim, they have filed their AQ so I am awaiting directions whereas the other they have not filed an AQ so I am going to reming them 1st as I don't want to enter default judgement yet (although I am entitled to). Now, I really must get on with some work!! bye for now

Hi Neil, I'm sorry if I've confused you. What on my posts has confused you? My posts quote letters I received from the solicitors and show that they have not read the spreadsheet properly as their replies demonstrate. I am claiming: charges o/d interest contractual interest in my poc I asked for the higher unauthorised rate or, in the alternative, the authorised rate or, in the alternative, the stat 8% thereby giving the judge the options. Stick with it - claim the CI. If you don't try, then you won't get it but make sure if your claim goes to court that you provide the alternatives. Look at mindzai/ lucid's thread. Like I said, sometimes the debate confuses the issue!

The "Interest thing" I was referring to was the different types of interest and how it is applied. In my opinion and after reading many posts about the contractual compounded interest, it is fairly straightforward. Note the fairly. I'll admit that it took a little bit of reading and asking questions (as I got confused from reading other posts) but on the whole I still think it is fairly straighfoward. Given the information available, it is not possible to know the correct figures. You can only estimate. Unless the banks are forced to disclose exactly how they work out the interest this will remain. And the banks disclosing their calculations will probably only happen when a test case is taken to conclusion. I do understand the full implications and am fretting about my claim that I have submitted. Looking back on it, if I could change anything then I would have submitted three spreadsheets. Spreadsheet 1 would show when I was in unauthorised borrowing and thus be charged that rate. Spreadsheet 2 would show when I was in authorised borrowing and show that rate. Spreadsheet 3 would be the totals. Mind you, most of my charges were when I was in unauthorised borrowing anyway so I don't think that would make much difference. I understand your point about the judge wanting to know how you worked things out and it is up to the claimant to have this knowledge. This is why I have asked where the formulas Mindzai used to calcuate the interest are - see my post #313 and Mindzai's response post #315 on page 16 of this thread. I am in the process of understanding that formula precisley for the reason of explaining why I have estimated etc. I hope this clarifies my position a little.

Hi FF, Not entirely sure what the issue is but I would say that you're original thoughts are correct. My personal opinion is that sometimes the debate complicates things sometimes! My own thoughts are for your POC, in the brief description, keep it simple. Have a look here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/681-4-particulars-claim-n1.html Then, in the POC section, just write "see attached" and attach the actual POC. The whole interest thing is also fairly strightforward. Remember that the original claim to the bank asked them to provide the means as to how they worked out your charges. They have not given you that so you have attempted, as a lay person, to work it out as accurately as possible. It will not be possible to get the figures exact. If they dispute them then they should provide the means so that you can calculate correctly - put the onus back on them. I've got to be brief as I'm at work but I hope this allays your fears! Cheers

Thanks for your help Lattie - I don't know where I'd be without this forum!

Thanks for the response Lateralus - those are the threads I've been reading up on. I thought I should send a letter nudging them about the AQ. How long should I leave it after that if they don't respond? They did send an offer letter the day after I received my General Form of Judgement or Order and I haven't responded to that yet. Do you think I should combine the two letters - rejecting the offer and asking them to file the AQ? Thanks

Hi, I'm hoping someone can help me with my claim against FD. I'm posting here as it's now with DG and this board seems more busier than the FD one. I already have a (small) thread here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/first-direct/60289-mg-fd.html I have two claims (both claiming contractual interest and if not, the 8%) to which I have filed my AQ. Claim 1 is for approx £1150 and DG have filed their AQ Claim 2 is for approx £6500 and DG have missed the deadline for filing their AQ so I should be able to ask for judgement in default. However on reading many posts it seems that I'm better off sending a letter 'nudging' DG to file an AQ. I'm not sure what to do so would appreciate any advice. Thanks

Hi Sue, Have a look at my question here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/6964-spreadsheet-interest-73.html and then Fred Funks response on the next page - he gives another link which I looked at. Hope it's some help. If not, please post again and I'll try and explain.

Mindzai, as usual you are a gent. Thanks for posting. I was wondering where the rest of the calculcations were hidden! I'll try and work it out this weekend also (in between laying flooring - *sigh* bank holidays...)

hmm sorry formatting didn't quite come out right. Should be more like this: Morning, I was hoping someone could give me some advice on the following spreadsheet related question. I have 2 claims against my bank (First Direct) concerning 2 accounts. I received 2 letters from Dg concerning each claim. The first claim is the lower amount (under £1000) while the second claim is higher (over £5000). In both cases I have used Mindzai & Lucid’s spreadsheet and am claiming contractual interest. Both cases are with the court and I submitted my AQ on 1st May. I have done pretty extensive reading of important threads and tried searching forums and threads but have not yet found my answer. Letter re claim 1: 'Upon cross-referencing your statements with your breakdown, it is clear that the overdraft you seek to claim relates to the entire overdrawn balance not purely the charges applied to your account (for example 23/12/02 interest applied £0.37, interest claimed £0.37).' Well actually my spreadsheet states this so I’m not entirely sure what they are referring to: 23/12/2002 £0.37 -£167.70 £0.13 Letter re claim 2: 'We note your comments regarding your meticulous calculations but you have not provided us with the basis of your calculations. Upon cross-referencing your statements with your breakdown, it is not clear how you arrived at your figures. For example 23/11/2001 interest charged £21.26 and you state your account was in credit at that time so interest is all attributable to penalties. However, as that interest was actually for the period 01/10/2001 to 01/11/2001 and as such the balance outstanding on 23/11/01 is immaterial, during the period the account was overdrawn considerably more than the cumulative penalties to that date and as such your calculations would appear to be incorrect. As a further example your earliest claim of 23/01/01 advises that £0.07 of the total interest charged of £1.47 relates to the charge of £37.50. However as in the previous example the interest actually relates to a period before the charge was applied to the account and as such the interest was charged on a previous overdrawn balance which does not include the charge.’ My spreadsheet sates this for the first example: 23/11/2001 £21.26 -£0.01 £21.26 And for the second: 23/01/2001 £1.47 -£1,231.97 £0.07 So I understand their first query here but the second is simply incorrect (as in letter 1). It would appear that they have misunderstood the spreadsheet (perhaps on purpose?). This leads me to my questions as I would like to make sure I have this correct before replying (if indeed I do reply - see below). In my first letter (26/01/2007), I stated: ‘If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.’ So I have already asked that they explain their calculations – obviously they did not respond. My understanding is that Mindzai based his calculations as best he could without knowing how they work out interest and given that they have not explained their charges. However, for my own knowledge I would like to know how this was calculated, in particular the formula: =IF(ISERROR(INTONPEN),0,IF(INTONPEN Could someone explain that for me? Also, I received (on 24/05/07) a General Form of Order of Judgement or Order dated 22/05/07 re claim 2 where it is ordered that: ‘Unless the defendant files an AQ within 3 days of service of this order, the claimant shall have permission to enter judgement, the defendant and any counter claim shall be struck out, and the defendant debarred from giving evidence about any claim for damages’ I understand this to mean that I should win if they do not file an AQ today (I know that late filing of an AQ is a tactic of theirs). Should I bother replying to either letters? I have an idea of how to respond, mentioning the fact that as the bank would not provide me with how their charges are calculated, I still meticulously calculated what I believed was owed based on ….. Many thanks wit your continued help.

Morning, I was hoping someone could give me some advice on the following spreadsheet related question. I have 2 claims against my bank (First Direct) concerning 2 accounts. I received 2 letters from Dg concerning each claim. The first claim is the lower amount (under £1000) while the second claim is higher (over £5000). In both cases I have used Mindzai & Lucid’s spreadsheet and am claiming contractual interest. Both cases are with the court and I submitted my AQ on 1st May. I have done pretty extensive reading of important threads and tried searching forums and threads but have not yet found my answer. Letter re claim 1: 'Upon cross-referencing your statements with your breakdown, it is clear that the overdraft you seek to claim relates to the entire overdrawn balance not purely the charges applied to your account (for example 23/12/02 interest applied £0.37, interest claimed £0.37).' Well actually my spreadsheet states this so I’m not entirely sure what they are referring to: 23/12/2002 £0.37 -£167.70 £0.13 Letter re claim 2: 'We note your comments regarding your meticulous calculations but you have not provided us with the basis of your calculations. Upon cross-referencing your statements with your breakdown, it is not clear how you arrived at your figures. For example 23/11/2001 interest charged £21.26 and you state your account was in credit at that time so interest is all attributable to penalties. However, as that interest was actually for the period 01/10/2001 to 01/11/2001 and as such the balance outstanding on 23/11/01 is immaterial, during the period the account was overdrawn considerably more than the cumulative penalties to that date and as such your calculations would appear to be incorrect. As a further example your earliest claim of 23/01/01 advises that £0.07 of the total interest charged of £1.47 relates to the charge of £37.50. However as in the previous example the interest actually relates to a period before the charge was applied to the account and as such the interest was charged on a previous overdrawn balance which does not include the charge.’ My spreadsheet sates this for the first example: 23/11/2001 £21.26 -£0.01 £21.26 And for the second: 23/01/2001 £1.47 -£1,231.97 £0.07 So I understand their first query here but the second is simply incorrect (as in letter 1). It would appear that they have misunderstood the spreadsheet (perhaps on purpose?). This leads me to my questions as I would like to make sure I have this correct before replying (if indeed I do reply - see below). In my first letter (26/01/2007), I stated: ‘If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.’ So I have already asked that they explain their calculations – obviously they did not respond. My understanding is that Mindzai based his calculations as best he could without knowing how they work out interest and given that they have not explained their charges. However, for my own knowledge I would like to know how this was calculated, in particular the formula: =IF(ISERROR(INTONPEN),0,IF(INTONPEN Could someone explain that for me? Also, I received (on 24/05/07) a General Form of Order of Judgement or Order dated 22/05/07 re claim 2 where it is ordered that: ‘Unless the defendant files an AQ within 3 days of service of this order, the claimant shall have permission to enter judgement, the defendant and any counter claim shall be struck out, and the defendant debarred from giving evidence about any claim for damages’ I understand this to mean that I should win if they do not file an AQ today (I know that late filing of an AQ is a tactic of theirs). Should I bother replying to either letters? I have an idea of how to respond, mentioning the fact that as the bank would not provide me with how their charges are calculated, I still meticulously calculated what I believed was owed based on ….. Many thanks wit your continued help.

Sent off my rejection letter yesterday. Used a combination of suggestions and came up with this: Letter 1: My Address Date Dg Solicitors BS15 1QZ Re: County Court Claim Number xxxxxxx Response to settlement offer. Dear Sir/ Madam Thank you for your letter dated 08 May 2007. I respectfully decline your offer of £3049.40 as settlement of my claim. I note that your client has disregarded the following amounts claimed based on the Limitation Act 1980: Penalty Charges 23/01/2001 to 23/03/2001 £253.50 As my initial request for the charges to be repaid was made on 26/01/2007 and I have the original statements, copies of which have been provided, it is my belief that the Limitation Act 1980 does not apply. I am also aware of other cases that have gone back over 6 years where they claimant has been successful. I also understand you have a policy of initially rejecting claims for overdraft interest. However, should this be the case after you have reviewed my claim, you should be aware that my claim for overdraft interest has been meticulously calculated and double checked. It only ever relates to the cumulative charges within the overdrawn balance of the account at the point that the overdraft interest was debited. If it is that in your view the interest is not claimable, I am prepared to discuss this with yourselves and the judge in court. However, I am mindful of the vast number of claims with which you are currently dealing. In order to more speedily resolve this matter, I am willing to accept the sum of £6111 Claim up to 29/03/2007 5696.68 Daily rate from 30/30/2007 to 17/05/2007 (£1.33 x 49) 65.17 Court Costs 350 Total 6111 (rounded down to nearest pound) Please find enclosed another copy of my schedule of charges relating to this claim. I hope to hear from you very soon so that a reasonable conclusion to this claim might be achieved. I am sure that the courts would whole-heartedly approve of our settling this matter in a timely manner and without their further intervention. I look forward to hearing from you. Yours faithfully Links: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-fd-hfc-successes/67152-mcol-4-days-2-a.html Post 8 http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/76820-calling-all-hsbc-claimants.html#post671596 http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/33005-bong-hsbc-contractual-interest-8.html#post446850 And of course the template Hope this may help someone else

Hi Fred_Funk, Thanks for the response. I don't think it's the same as my charges go back to Jan 2001 so only fill up to about 80 rows however the replies you had from Lucid make sense. Basically, I use compounded interest up to the date of the claim and the use the dilay rate of £1.33 thereafter. And if I want to resend the schedule, I'll change the date back to my claim filing date and then just add the daily rate - 52 days @ £1.33

Hi, Although I am at the AQ stage and am rejecting an offer, I just want a bit of clarification on the spreadsheet for claiming contractual/ compound interest at the daily rate. I filed a claim on 27/03/2007 for a total of £5696.68 plus a daily rate of £1.33. My working out of this at todays date (17th May) = £5760.52 yet on my spreadsheet, the total is £5837.32 Now, is this because it's not simply a matter of adding £1.33 per day but adding the compund interest on top? In which case why is the daily rate a flat rate? I just want to check as in my rejection letter I am stating what I will settle for and don't want to get it wrong - particularly as I have said that I have meticulously calculated it!! Cheers

Bump. Any thoughts? Anyone? Bueller? ;-)

Hi, thanks for the response and sorry it's taken a while to get back. Everything seems to be going off at the same time at the moment so really busy! Anyway, here's a breakdown of what's going on. on both claims I am claiming my charges + interest and contractual interest @ unauthorised rate (19.9%) or in the alternative @ authorised rate (10.9%) or in the alternative statutory 8%. I have sent of my AQ on both claims: Claim 1 Charges: £2307 Interest: £336.36 Sub total:£2643.36 Court Costs: £350 Total: £2993.36 Claim of contractual interest @ unauth rate (19.9%): £2643.36 + £3053.32 = £5696.68 Claim of contractual interest @ auth rate (10.9%): £2643.36 + £1422.89 = £4066.25 Claim of stat interest: £2643.36 + £860.94 = £3504.30 I have been offered £3049.40 which breaks down into repayment of charges of £2053.50 (they are saying that the 6 year limit applies from the date of my claim, not when I was first asking for the charges to be repaid!) + court fees of £350 + interest on the charges of £645.90 Claim 2 Charges: £480 Interest: £83.73 Sub total:£563.73 Court Costs: £120 Total: £683.73 Claim of contractual interest @ unauth rate (19.9%): £563.73+ £430.23 = £993.96 Claim of contractual interest @ auth rate (10.9%): £563.73 + £211.41 = £775.14 Claim of stat interest: £563.73 + £135.82 = £699.55 I have been offered £741.17 which breaks down into repayment of charges (£480) + court fees of £120 + interest on the charges of £141.17 If I take the claim for 8% as my minumum then the minimum offer would be £3854.30 and £819.55 as I am unsure how succesful I will be claiming contractual interest. In which case the offer on claim 2 doesn't look too bad but I am tempted to write back rejecting them but offering to settle at my minumum claims. What do you think? Cheers

Hi all, I have ended up filing my claim and have posted off my AQ. I have since received a letter from DG solicitors offering an ex gratia payment. They are offering: 2053 for the charges - i am asking 2307 645 interest (I guess on the above) - I am asking 336 o/d interest to be paid + stat interest 350 court fees. They also mention that I have no basis for any of my claims - basically it's very similar to the initial offeres they sent. I'm thinking I should reject this and carry on with my claim. What do others think? I can post more later if needed, thanks

Thanks, I've just been up to the Court. My claim has been issued (20/03/07) and served today (28/03/07) so I have to fill in an application notice to change the POC and evidence. That will then get sent to the defendant so I guess they will know I have acknowledged my mistake then. Re the amounts, I am also claiming contractual interest on the charges at the banks unauthorised borrowing rate which gives the 3500 amount. This is based on the fact that they took my money without authorisation and the principal of mutuality and reciprocity, e.g what goes around comes around. There are loads of posts about claiming contractual interest so I'm not going to go into it further here! Cheers

Thanks for your response. The bank did offer to refund the charges only before I submitted to court. However they are not offering to pay the interest they charged me which is why I took it further. The claim amount is: charges:approx £2800 interest: approx £400 contractual interest: approx £3500 So, do you think I should inform the court of my mistake and acknowledge it to the bank? Or do you think I should have accepted the offer?

Hi, I have already filed my POC with the court the other week although have not had any communication yet. The banks have stated in their letters that they have already refunded some charges so deducted them from the claim. It's only now that I've gone back through the statements with a fine toothcomb and discovered that they are correct. It's not a huge amount and doesn't make much difference to my claim but am worried about how to address this mistake in the courts. In my defense, I have been looking at the summary of charges sheet that comes with my statement rather than looking through the statement for charges and thought I had taken into account any refunds given (these are listed on the summary of charges sheet) What should I do? I'm thinking that I should write back to the bank and acknowledge my mistake, plus when I get details of my case, write to the Court and inform them - effectively resubmitting my scedule of charges. Does this seem sensible? For the record, the bank offered to refund all the charges, but not the interest or contractual interest that I am claiming, so I rejected the offer. thanks for any advice in advance

Hi, I've just filed my N1 (didn't do mcol afterall as details wouldn't fit). I' also claiming contractual interest and used Mindzai + Lucids POC as a basis (which it would seem you have?): http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloydstsb-successes/26172-mindzai-lucid-lloyds-tsb-2.html#post228549 I changed some of the wording and combined other POC's to create a POC in my style that I would be able to understand. I stated the value as: Charges £xxx Overdraft Interest £xxx Contractual Interest £xxx Court Fee £xxx TOTAL £xxx I then printed out my POC separately and attached plus 4 spreadsheets: 1) detailing charges and o/d interest 2) detailing contractual interest @ 19.9% (my bank unauth o/d rate) 3) detailing contractual interest @ 10.9% (my bank auth o/d rate) 4) detailing the 8% stat. rate My POC stated that I was claiming contractual int at the unauth rate, in the alternative, the auth rate and in the alternatice, the stat rate. For the value I used the unauth rate amount as this is my claim. HTH

hmm oh well no takers. Did manage to find this on the moneysavingexpert website tho, maybe it will help someone - a little bit more in plain english: The charges applied are an unfair penalty under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations, which state: “A term is unfair if it requires any consumer who fails his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation”. The amount charged does not reflect the cost of the breach. Under the law of penalties, the charges are an unlawful ‘extravagant’ penalty. A charge is a penalty if it does not reflect an item’s true cost. http://www3.moneysavingexpert.com/files/bank_charges_templates/letter7.rtf