Please see transcript below - opinions please. File: Transcriptof the Audio file recorded at the Disciplinary held, 7th September2012 Time: 11:00am Location: ******* Present: ************** Chair ******** CompanyWitness ************** Employee **************** Employee Witness Chairperson The date is Friday 7thSeptember, we are at a disciplinary meeting with **** , ***** *****, ***** and*****8. Witness today for ***** is ***** and our company witness is *****, ourgroup accountant. Ok, basically who wants to go first – Lostlolly? Lostlolly Yes, no problem. Obviously I would like to request a copy of the conversation once it is done, I’m assuming you can pass that to Evil manager or Karl. Chairperson Absolutely, Evil manager will copy thatoff and then email to you. Lostlolly Magic, now obviously I appreciate you have a number of questions you would like me to answer. I think its only fair, I have made some notes, that I, am allowed without interruption to go through these first and then I’m more than willing to answer any questions that you’ve got. Ok, so there is nothing to say that I won’t answer any questions that you wish to pose to me. I’m going to start here. This whole situation has made me feel a little unwell recently. Ihave a sick feeling I am being victimised for an attempt to highlight malpractice at work. I did have the opportunityto go the doctors to sign me off, not as unfit to work but unfit to attend adisciplinary. However, I didn’t want to do that because it would just delay thewhole process and wouldn’t make me feel any better in the long run. No doubt you have a number of questions for me which I will answer to the best of my ability. I am aware that I am allowed to present evidence, call witnesses etc.in my defence and I believe it would only be fair to explain the background behind why we are here today to present a fairer picture of the situation. In the weeks leading up to Tuesday 14th August 2012 a whole cacophony of events taking place outside of work placed me under a great deal of stress. The majority of these events concerned the well being of my immediate family. Although normally I could handle such matters I felt the pressure was becoming insurmountable. I decided to seek help from a hypnotherapist in an attempt to find a way to cope with the stress better and duly had my first appointment onMonday 13th August 2012. I came out ofthe meeting feeling positive and refreshed, only to receive a phone call from my wife to say our daughter had fallen into a pond and needed to go to hospital. I rushed home, took her to the QMC and luckily she appeared to be ok. I duly arrived at work on Tuesday 14th August. Work is normally a place where nothing, other than job matters. I had not been able to concentrate completely on the tasks at hand and felt that if I did not find some way to completely resolve the family issues outside of work that my work would suffer, I would make mistakes. It felt like I was having a nervous breakdown. i emailed my manager Evil manager to advise him of the need to attempt to resolve the issues which meant leaving work that day. He emailed me back “ok, no probs”. With my fatherworking away in Australia this left me as the head of the family. I decided that I could not cope with the problems myself and attempted to contact my father using Skype. I was unable to reach him and decided the best course of action would be to drive to his home in Newcastle, speak with his partner, give her a letter to pass to him when they spoke via Skype, which they did every morning when he awoke. I then returned home to my wife and children. I notified Evi lmanager by text that I would come in and see him and Chairperson onWednesday afternoon to explain the situation. I woke up on Wednesday 15th August and did not feel right. I visited my GP and broke down during the appointment. My doctor prescribed me with a course ofanti- depressents and asked if I needed some time off work, to which I replied that would be difficult because my manager was due to be off. I went home and took my medication. Initial side effects included drowsiness and sickness so I slept most of the day. I rang Evil manager to advise him that I would, all being well return to work as normal on Thursday 16th August. Approximately11:00 am on the Thursday I was called into Chairpersons office to be greeted by Chairperson and Evil manager. The conversation began by suggesting that I was always off whenever Evil manager was on holiday. I disagreed with this and asked for the claim to be substanciated. I knew then something was not right, afte rall, during Evil manager’s last leave in May I had come to work for a week on crutches with my lower leg in plaster after I broke my ankle! I was then told that the company wanted to make me redundant. When I explained that I did not believe this would help me as suggested, the response given confirmed that thethreat of redundancy was because I had ****ed the management off. A number of meetings took place over the course of that day. Eventually, with valued input from Chairperson’s son Edward and a two hour meeting in Evil manager’s office Iwas told to forget about the whole thing and return to work. On a couple of occasions I had been to see Evil manager and ask what his part in the initial decision to make me redundant was. He denied any involvement completely out of hand, he said he had told Chairperson that he could not run the operation without me and that I was indispensable. He did not know what Chairperson was thinking but he was simply looking at pound signs. Again, I believe there was no proper process to consider redundancy was put in place, my face simply didn’t fit at that time. After all, the company had employed Baldy inDecember 2011 to undertake some of my duties to allow me to concentrate on other tasks. I left workfeeling very uncomfortable. I had worked damn hard for the company for the last 13 years nearly and at the drop of a hat, a fancy whim, I had been threatened with redundancy. Something was not right. I had worked for the company long enough to know that Chairperson values Evil manager’s opinion above all else. If Evil manager had been so supportive as suggested, the whole situation would not even have arisen. I knew he had lied to me at that point. I arrived at work on Friday and decided to raise a grievance. I knew that my position had become untenable. I knew of dishonest miscarriages of justice that had been undertaken in the past by my manager Evil manager and decided I would base my grievance on these facts. I decided to seek supportive evidence to substanciate my claim that my position was untenable. This was when I came across discussions between Chairperson and Evilmanager concerning me, and the content of these discussions confirmed that my manager, on top of all the other dishonest dealings, had also lied to me in person. I accessed these conversations using the profile I have always used. My individual profile did not work on my machine, it would not search and replay and Evilmanager was aware of this problem. It may have been an issue solely with my machine, in the same manner that it would not open word or excel documents directly. For those particular programs I had to open the program and search for the document. This will sounda little bit strange but I would like to read a passage which highlights my current situation. Chairperson Fine Lostlolly Thank you, Ok, this is from a childrens book called “What the ladybird heard” from the author of the“Gruffalo” Julia Donaldson, illustrated by a lady by the name of Lydia Monks, it has some lovely pictures in, on everypicture/page there is a ladybird. “Once upon atime lived a fat red hen A duck in a pond And a goose in apen A woolly sheep,a hairy hog, a handsome horse and a dainty dog A cat thatmeowed and a cat that purred A fine prize cowand a ladybird. And the cow said moo And the hen said cluck Hiss said the goose And quack said the duck Neigh said the horse, oinksaid the hog Bah said the sheep and woofsaid the dog One cat meowed whilst theother cat purred And the ladybird said never aword. But the ladybird saw and theladybird heard She saw two men in a big blackvan With a map and a key and acunning plan And she heard them whisper“this is how” “We’re going to steal the fineprize cow” “Open the gate at the dead ofnight” “Past the horse and then turnright” “Round the duck pond, past thehog” “Be careful not to wake thedog” “Left past the sheep then straight ahead” “And in through the door ofthe prize cows shed” And the little spotty ladybird Who never before had said aword Told the animals this is how Two thieves are planning tosteal the cow “They’ll open the gate at thedead of night” “Past the horse and then turnright” “Round the duck pond past thehog” “Careful not to wake the dog” “Then past the sheep and straight ahead” “And in through the door ofthe prize cow shed” And the cow said moo And the hen said cluck Hiss said the goose And quack said the duck Neigh said the horse, oink saidthe hog Bah said the sheep and woodsaid the dog And both the cats began tomeow “We can’t let them steal thefine prize cow” But the ladybird had a goodidea And then she whispered intoeach animal ear At the dead of night the twobad men Hefty Hugh and Lanky Len Opened the gate whilst thefarmer slept And tip toe into the farm theycrept. Then the goose said “neigh”with all her might And Len said “That’s thehorse, turn right” And the dainty dog began toquack “The duck” said Hugh, “We’reright on track” Oink said the cats “There goes the hog” “Be careful not to wake thedog” Bah Bah Bah said the fat redhen “The sheep, we’re nearlythere” said Len Then the duck on the pond saidmoo moo moo “Two more steps to go” saidHugh And they both stepped into theduck pond – splosh And the Farmer awoke, said“Golly Gosh” And he called the cops andthey came – Nee Nar And through the thieves intothe panda car Then the cow said moo And then Hen said cluck Hiss said the goose And quack said the duck Neigh said the horse Oink said the hog Bah said the sheep Woof said the dog And the farmer cheered And both cats purred But the ladybird said never aword. That’s the end of the story. I consider myself similar to the ladybird that I have decided to speak up. Until the disciplinary was called I was due to return to work on Wednesday just goneand the grievance hearing was set for yesterday. On Wednesday I had planned to request that Evilmanager not be present in the meeting. I was to present you, Chairperson,with the concerns and make a “qualifying disclosure” over the miscarriages of justice with my supporting evidence. Evilmanager has adopted a dishonest approach to management that does not befit the company or its staff.I believe my actions regarding the conversations were justified and necessary.It may be considered though that my medication affected my thought process onthe best course of action to follow in dealing with this matter. Unfortunately the failing of the company is that Evi lmanager is never held accountable fo rany of these dishonest undertakings. In my case, of course he is entitled to his opinion but he has still been dishonest in his dealings with me. I had been told by other employees of the company not to trust Evil manager but I had a blind faith in him and had always done as requested. To my shame, I have seen him victimise staff in the past and not raised the matter as I should have. There are many reasons to believe that Evilmanager would not have been impartial had he chaired this meeting. The situation with the dismissal of Lady colleague is a prime example. After Angelina had been dismissed she requested copies of all her warnings. In between sending the request andreceiving the copies, Angelina found the originals. The copies sent were not the same and the wording on the final written warning had been altered to attempt to simplify the case for dismissing Angelina. This is surely scandalous behaviour of an epic scale. Before the Angelina case,another member of staff had a valid reason to be dismissed. The employee in question was already on a final written warning for absence and lateness. Under company rules, two lateness marks in any one period should result in adisciplinary and hence possible dismissal for this particular employee. It was brushed under the carpet. We had discussed several times over the past two years moving thisindividual to another shift as we felt it would benefit the operation. Even the supervisor responsible for this individual requested that we move this person. For some reason, an excuse was always found and this person was never moved. Instead somebody else was moved. This person actually only eventually moved recently when a promotion came their way. I can provide moreexamples if required at a later stage. Finally, I do wish to advise that I disagree with your statement emailed to me suggesting the reason you began the investigation is not central to the point. Without this initial information from a fellow employee, whose motives could be questioned, there would be no investigation. To that end as I originally requested, even if anonymous I believe the company should have taken a fullstatement and provided me with a copy. I also believe that it is within my rights to request an explanation as to why the witness at this time wishes to remain anonymous. That is everything I brought there sir, so I am more than willing, thank you for listening, to answer any questions that you want to pose. Chairperson Basicallydo you know why we are having a disciplinary meeting today? Do you know the reason why? Lostlolly I believe we are here because of the conversations that I have heard. Chairperson Basically,what is it, we found and we have evidence that you have been listening to persona land private conversations between Evilmanager and Elizabeth Ridings, our HR Consultant,right, and personal and private conversations between Evilmanager and I, Personal and private conversations between Elizabeth Riding and Evilmanager discussing Mark colleagues position. Lostlolly Ok Chairperson Ok. Without going into all this I have the actual logs of everytime you have logged on orlogged off, because as I think you are aware Lostlolly, it leaves traceability on the voice recorder. Lostlolly That’scorrect. I am aware sir, yes. Chairperson So,the thing is the allegations against you today are that you’ve been listening to personal and private conversations, to do with this company, as an employee of this company,right… for what reason? To obviously make your case better, or have the inside information and knowledge of it. Taking a step back, if you remember you wereoff that afternoon, you went up to Newcastle didn’t you? Lostlolly That’sright sir, yes. Chairperson We had a meeting then the following day, Evilmanager and I and you, didn’t we? Lostlolly That was the day after sir, it was the Thursday. Chairperson The day after, right. Ok, and as far as we were aware at that time that basicallythat you were going to carry on with your job and things were just gonna get back to normal, right, and thatwas it. But everything appears to have got worse since then. Lostlolly It has sir because unfortunatelyI have been at the company long enough to know that, for your reasons, which are well valid, that you respect Evilmanager’s decision more than anyone else’s within the company. I found myself doubting the reasons as to why the decision to then not make me redundant had changed. I knew then that something was not right. Now I put a blind faith in Evilmanager for all the time that I have worked for him, for the whole time that I have been here I have worked really hard for the company and I found unfortunately, I decided that day that, when I came back on the Friday, that I was going to start to raise a grievance with the company because I wasn’t happy with the situation that had taken place the day before. I truly believe that the reason that you were threatening to make me redundant was because I had ****ed you off by disappearing on that Tuesday afternoon and that was confirmed to me in the meeting here, your exact words to me, when I don’t believe that redundancy would help me, how would that help me? Taking a short term payment replace a£32,000 a year job going forward if I’d got no employment – your exact words ,and forgive me for this, were “ Well you should have thought about that beforeyou ****ed off and left me in the ****, left Evil manager in the **** on Tuesday afternoon.” To me, that then says to me that the whole process of the redundancy was absolutely nothing to do with saving money and I am not denying that I have listened to some conversations but those conversations were evidence to support the fact that my manager, whoI had a blind faith in, had lied to me. Chairperson Ok, what right have you to listen to conversations between me and my senior managers in this place? Lostlolly I was looking for supportive evidence to bring to you to explain why my position would be untenable in thecompany. Chairperson Ok, Lostlolly why did you listen to conversations with regards to Mark colleague? Lostlolly The conversations with Mark were looking for supportive evidence where Evil manager had told Mark that he was suspended because if we go back to when Mark. Chairperson What was it to do with you? Lostlolly It was to do with me tohighlight the fact that Evilmanager is dishonest in his dealings with the company. I raised, in January I spoke to Mark. Mark came in and he wasn’t very well, he had been self harming himself. We had discussions, Evilmanager told me to phone Mark and tell him that he was not to come to work that night. Mark was in a state, he told me there was nothing wrong with him. I had a conversation which will be on your list sir, and I spoke with Mark and said we have decided that you are not to come in this evening, we want you to come in for a meeting tomorrow. I went and fetched Mark. Mark came in and had a meeting with me and Evilmanage rdownstairs. At that time Evilmanager told him that he was not to come to work until he had a doctors note. Effectively I believe that was suspending Mark because he was being told not to come to work. Mark said he could not afford totake any time off. He came back to us and said he could not get a doctors appointment until next week, he could not afford to take any time off. I told him not to worry about it and we would book him some holidays and if he then needed some later in the year we would take them from the next year which is something that we do grace the staff with. Mark was then taking holidays. A week or two later when Mark came back with his doctors note I went to see Evilmanager and said I believed, strictly speaking that Mark should no thave had to use holidays because he was suspended from the company although in essence he wasn’t provided with a suspension letter, but he was told downstair sthat he was suspended and he was not to come back until he had a doctors note to prove that he was fit to work. I said to Evilmanager, strictly speaking, hes hould not have had to take those as holidays. Evilmanager said to not worry about it and leave it until he complains. I was lookingfor more supportive evidence that it was a dishonest dealing by my manager –that is nothing to do with the fact that Mark is not here now, but it was looking for supportive evidence in terms of my reasons why I felt that I had to leave the company. My position was no longer tenable. Chairperson You might have done that Lostlolly but atthe end of the day but what gave you the right to listen to all of these? Lostlolly They are all conversations looking for supportive evidence Chairperson. I’ve nothing to say other than th econversations that are there are all looking for supportive evidence. The fact that unfortunately I came across the fact that my manager has then lied to me on top of everything else he has done, that is an unfortunate by-product. Companyrep So for clarity you are not denying that you have listened? Lostlolly No, I can’t deny that sir. Chairperson Have you got copies of these conversations? Lostlolly They were downloaded to the desktop so that I could play them again. They have been deleted from the desktop but because you guys have provided me with a log then if we ever need those again in the future we will be able to find those. Chairperson Were you aware there was going to be traceability Lostlolly? Lostlolly Yes, I was sir. Chairperson Were you aware that we were going to findout you had been doing this? Lostlolly In all honesty sir you would have found out when I came to the grievance meeting on that particular day and requested that Evilmanager was not in because I was going to present this to you as evidence. I wasn’t going to deny the fact. I admit I had possibly not gone about that in the correct manner. Chairperson Ok Lostlolly, but do you understand that its not right to listen to conversations between Evilmanager and myself? Lostlolly I felt that it was justified at the time sir. Chairperson We talk about all sorts of different things over that phone Lostlolly, to do with this business, to do with everything financial and stuff like that. You and everybody else have got noright to listen to our conversations , do you know that? Lostlolly With all due respect Chairperson,were any of those conversations about anything other than me or treatment of other employees? Chairperson I’ve got no idea – I can’t remember now. How can I remember all these conversations but at the end of the day unless I physically listen to them but all we know Lostlolly is that we have traceability that you have listened to those conversations. Lostlolly I don’t deny that sir. Chairperson You’re not denying that today, right ok.Well, you can’t deny it because we know you have. Lostlolly Of course. Chairperson Because we have a trace of it. Haven’t we? Lostlolly Of course, yes. Chairperson So where do you see your position now? Lostlolly Well, I think that my positionis untenable sir. I have worked really hard for someone, for, yourself included, for 13 years although my issue is not with you or the company apart from the failing to discipline Evilmanager. I don’t want to go into the details as to whether or not you were actually aware of these situations previously. I’m assuming in the case of the Lady colleague situation that you were because you held her appeal, and in her appeal letter she raised the concerns about the wordings being changed on her documents. Chairperson We are not discussing Lady colleague. Lostlolly Ok sir but that is relevant to supportive evidence as to why I can’t – well it is relevant sir, its relevant to why my position is untenable. I can’t work for a gentleman who will lie tome face to face. Chairperson, you have always, the majority of the time,probably 99% of the time been open and honest with me. I work for Evilmanager though and he works for you and he has lied to me. PAUSE Chairperson Well, obviously Lostlolly he is going to deny that. Obviously, isn’t he. Lostlolly Well, I think you will probably find in one of the conversations that he may have had a brief conversation withClaire, that he said he told you how important I was to the company, and Edward did the same thing. Went I went downstairs to see Evil manager on thatparticular day, after we had the meeting in his office I went to Evil managerand apologised to him that afternoon. I said “Evilmanager, I’m really sorry that I came to see you this morning and questioned your position in this because you said to me you had nothing to do with this and it was down to Chairperson.He said “I might be many things but I am not a backstabber. I told Chairperson how important you was but Edward had a lot to do with this as well.” That obviously got me thinking. Chairperson What was that to do with Edward? Lostlolly Edward had had some swing on the decision and this is what Evilmanager had said, that you were not going to make me redundant that day, because Edward had been in to see you and he thoughtthat it was a mistake. Now, even to thepoint where Evilmanager is telling me that its just about the money, on the conversations that you’ve had with Evilmanager, even you question it Chairperson.Even you say “Do we really want to go ahead with this tomorrow?” and Chairperson,Evilmanager Almostgleefully in his voice said “Yes, I Don’t see why not”. Can you tell me those are the words of a man who has supported me? He has lied to me face to face about the support that he has given to me there in the company so whatever the outcome of this I couldn’t work for that gentleman either way. That is why I raised a grievance and that is why that I suggested my position was untenableand we needed to find a route for me to no longer participate in the dealings of the company. PAUSE Chairperson What I’m saying at the end of the day is that this hasn’t helped your cause has it? Lostlolly No, you are right sir, it hasn’t but with all due respect Chairperson that information was to come to you, maybe not in the log but by me telling you in the grievance meeting that I had supportive evidence as to why I could no longer work for this company. How you were to deal with that was then obviously down to you. Obviously it has come about in a different light now because somebody has decided to report the matter to you anyway before hand, which has effectively put the grievance on hold until this matter is dealt with. Obviously this gives you some ammunition to deal with this in a different light. Chairperson The thing is Lostlolly, I have got to ask this question. You are not going to answer it because you probably don’t know but I mean, when I think about it, how many other potential calls have you listened to over the years off our voice recorder. Lostlolly With all due respect you can check the logs. Chairperson If you have done it this time you could have done it in the past. Lostlolly Well, I would like to see someproof of that. Chairperson Well, I can’t prove it, I can’t prove it. What I am saying. Lostlolly With all due respect the log is there. Chairperson But what right have you to listen to personal calls. Lostlolly I was looking for supportive evidence. Chairperson Management calls, I speak to him from time to time (pointing at Company rep Douche) – I don’t expect you to listen tothe stuff that we talk about. Lostlolly Well, if you can find any calls to say that I have done that. Chairperson I can’t, I can’t substantiate it but whatI am saying that your biggest failing that you have done is listening to our private calls. Lostlolly We have said that the log records everything sir. I knew that there was a log there, so that log off the red box recorder can go back as far as you like and you can check that sir. And I can only give you my word that that is what is there, but then if that is there I understand that you could assume there is always something else. Chairperson Where do you see your position now besides being untenable? Lostlolly Untenable sir, I cant come backto a position. Chairperson Taking a step back, right, Taking a stepback right, before we know you’ve listened to these conversations and stuff like that, that day that you went at lunchtime you sent an email, right,because I was fuming quite honestly about that and I think you know that. Evil managerwas fuming as well, you just sent us an email, I know you’ve got personal problems. Lostlolly But Evilmanager could’ve comeback to me and rejected my request. Chairperson We all have personal problems right. Lostlolly Evilmanager could’ve come back to me and said “I’m sorry, no, you can’t go”. I had an email back from Evil managerthat said “ok, no probs”. If Evil manager had an issue with that he had the opportunity to phone me and say “I need to see you now”, he had the opportunity to email me and say “this is not acceptable”. What I expected when I came back on that Thursday, out of everything really and considering I had just started taking anti-depressents the day before was not to be threatened with redundancy, but to have a little bit of compassion from th e company who would maybe say “do you need some time off?” or possibly I was expecting to be disciplined over the matter but that would be “Lostlolly, that was unacceptable behaviour, don’t do it again”. To suggest that I’m taking time off when Evilmanager is not here, as the conversation started,I came in with a bloody broken ankle for a week! Chairperson Right, when you came in, was it the day after, the following day, you had a day off? Lostlolly It was a day and a half. Chairperson A day and a half, when you came in then,basically that night when you left here Lostlolly, right, you cleared your office, you cleared your desk, you cleared your pictures, you cleared every single thing out of that, so what, after our conversation in the afternoon,right, I was aware, I thought, yeah, ok, well, let it blow over, don’t let sworry about it anymore, you know, let him, if he wants to stay, then stay and get on with it but then you made the decision to clear your office, clear your desk, clear everything out of there and go on the Friday. Lostlolly I did take personal objects out of my office. Chairperson So that was it – had you made your mind up that it was over? Lostlolly From the Friday when I decided to raise the grievance, that’s when my position became untenable. I did not hand the grievance in to Evil manager until he got back on the following Wednesday. Evilmanager, if you remember was off on the Friday, the Monday andthe Tuesday and actually, when Evilmanager took those holidays sir, I had actually requested them about three few weeks before he put them in. Evil managerasked if I minded moving my holidays because it was Ramadan and I said “yes,not a problem, I’ll move them to the week after”, which is why I was off the week after. Evilmanager was off until the Wednesday so that is when I raised the grievance. In that time I was looking for supportive evidence to backup the reason why I believed my position had become untenable. I knew effectively from the Friday that I didn’t think I’d be able to work the company any more Chairperson, because I could not work for someone who had lied to me. I came across those conversations lookingfor supportive evidence. Unfortunately, they involved me, but I was looking already at that stage to say that I could not work for this gent. That was because I knew, deep down that it wasn’t right. Chairperson Did you think that at any time we may well find those conversations that you listened to? Lostlolly In all honesty, in the interim period between me being on holiday and coming back to raise them in the grievance meeting, no. Chairperson If you had thought that we would have found those conversations would you have done it or not? Lostlolly I can’t answer that question Chairperson because I was, I’d just started taking some medication and it may have had an effect on me at that time. I don’t know, I can’t answer that question. Companyrep Can I just ask – was anyone in the company aware that you were taking medication? Lostlolly Yes, I spoke with Evilmanager totell him that I had been to the doctors that morning and I phoned him, it must’ve been about 5 O’clock on the Wednesday, so this was the day that I’d got the medication. We got the medication from the doctors in the morning, I went home and slept, because I had arranged originally to come in and see you on theWednesday to discuss what the problems were. Chairperson Yes, you had. Lostlolly And we went over the problems Chairperson.I was candidly honest with you in Evilmanager’s office that afternoon and maybethat had some input on the fact that you then decided to not make me redundant as well, it may well be that the company had other ideas or pretences as to whyI was not here. You understood what the reasons were when I discussed them withyou Chairperson, but I still don’t think in some respects it was right to makethose kinds of decisions on me without actually knowing what the facts were. I got the chance to present the facts to you on that Thursday afternoon in Evilmanager’s office.I respected the fact that you sat there and listened to me. I respected thefact that then you changed your mind but that doesn’t change the fact that my manager has lied to me sir. Chairperson And you have proof that he lied to you? Lostlolly He has spoken to me in person,if you want to call him up and ask him, he will probably deny it, but then if he had said to me then “right, that’s it” in all honesty, if he had said to me that “I have told Chairperson that we can run without you, you can go” I would’ve respected him a bit more but I would have told you then on the Thursday that I wanted to leave Chairperson. Chairperson He was the one that said to me “No, we need to keep Lostlolly – we need to keep him and we are not going to let him go”. Lostlolly Then, the problem with that Chairperson,is that on the conversations that are there, you ask Evilmanager whether you should go ahead with the meeting tomorrow and he says “ Yes, why not?”. He says“Lostlolly is an excellent guy, works really hard, when he is on it his work isbrilliant, his work has not been on it the last two weeks” and I admitted thatto you because these problems had been getting on top of me. Chairperson Yes – I remember him saying that. Lostlolly But in those conversations Evilmanager does say yes. He is the instigator of getting that meeting to go ahead the next day. Not you Chairperson, you ask him the question and you may have had the initial idea but Evilmanager is the one that says “Yes, let’s go ahead and do this, I don’t know why not”. You asked him the question “are you sure we want to go ahead with doing this?” and Evil managersaid “Yes”. That is not what he said to me the next working day. Even if he had said that to me I would have respected him more. Now I don’t respect him, I have no respect for him”. Chairperson Turn that off a minute Pete. Lostlolly and all parties acknowledged that they were happy for the recording to pause. Chairperson Evilmanager has now just entered the roomat 11:40. Lostlolly would you now like to discuss with Evilmanager the discussion that you had with us previously? Lostlolly Evilmanager, do you feel in any situation, in the past couple of weeks that you have lied to me about how you have put my position across in the company in how important I am? Do you believe that what you have said to me is different to Chairperson? Evilmanager (After a LONG PAUSE)…… No Lostlolly No? Evilmanager No. Lostlolly So, you have told me in meetings on that particular day, that you have told Chairperson, that you’ve told that the company can do without me? Evilmanager Sorry, can you say that again? Lostlolly Have you said to me on that particular day when I came to see you in person, well lets start with what you have said. Have you said to Chairperson that you could not run the control room without me, that I was really important to the company and that it would be a mistake to let me go? Evilmanager No, I’ve not said those words exactly as that, No. Lostlolly Not exactly as that? What did you say sir? Evilmanager On the Thursday afternoon after we had our meeting in the morning Chairperson came, I think Edward was in there as well, and said he had spoken to you as well. Then, Chairperson said to me “Whatdo you want to do? Lets end this now”. Obviously that wasn’t on a phone call butin my office, Chairperson said to me “What do you want to do?” to me. I said “I think we should keep Lostlolly, because he brings value to the company, he hasa lot of experience and I think we should keep him.” Lostlolly What did you say to me? Did you tell me that you had told Chairperson I was valuable to the company? Evilmanager Yes, I think I did. Lostlolly Right, at any stage have you told Chairperson that you can do without me? Evilmanager No. Lostlolly No? Evilmanager I can’t remember. Lostlolly I beg to differ, unfortunately. Evilmanager Well I cant remember so. Lostlolly Ok. Evilmanager I’ve no listened to those conversations. Lostlolly Ok. So in that respect then, if that was the day before and I’d asked you what your involvement in that was in the morning, then you lied to me the following day. You did not say to me “I have told Chairperson that we could do without you”. You said that Chairperson was simply looking at pound signs, you didn’t know what he was thinking. You didn’t say to me “Lostlolly, if I’m honest with you, I turned round and said to Chairperson that we could run without you. We could delegate some jobs to Mark and some jobs to Lee.” Did you say that to me? At all? Evilmanager No I didn’t. Lostlolly Thank you – ok, I appreciateyour honesty. But you did say that to Chairperson the day before. Evilmanager I cant remember. Lostlolly So then I assume in that situation that you’ve lied to me. Now, I would then say that had you been honest with me in the afternoon, because I came to you and apologised to you for suggesting that you had anything to do with this and Chairperson had said to you on conversation “Do we go ahead with this?”. I know from having been at this company for a long time that Chairperson rightfully respects your opinions,more so than anyone in the company, you have been here longer than anyone and you are the manager at the end of the day but Chairperson asked you thequestion and you said “Yes”. If you had told me that the next day I would have had more respect for you but I think that then that I would have found at that particular time on that particular day I would have been suggesting to you, and none of this would’ve taken place, that my position was untenable. I have had a blind faith in you and trust in you for all the time that I’ve worked for you in this company. A blind faith and trust when other people have told me not to. I’ve ignored that, I’ve supported you in everything that I’ve done here the whole time and then to find out that you have lied to me was, was, you know…was very difficult. I decided to start raising a grievance and collect some supportive evidence. Evilmanager So how did you come to the conclusion I had lied to you? Lostlolly It was obvious to me, it was obvious to me on that day because I knew that Chairperson doesn’t do anything without your say so, had you turned round to Chairperson on the Wednesday andsaid “Let’s not do this, Lostlolly is really important, you know he probablyhas a few personal problems but lets speak to him about those, deal with thatand show a bit of compassion, offer him some time off or tell him to take some holidays” then that would’ve been different. I knew because of the trust that Chairperson places in you that it wasn’t right and you emphasised that point for me in the afternoon. The fact that turned around and said “Edward had a lot to do with it”, Evilmanager it wouldn’t even have got that far had you been as supportive to me as I have been to you in the whole time that I have been here, it wouldn’t even have got to the situation. You apologised in the afternoon, you said to me “I’m sorry we put you through that”. If you were that sorry you wouldn’t have agreed to put me through thatthe day before. I would have said to you then I respect the fact you have been honest with me but I can’t work for you. Evilmanager On the Thursday afternoon Chairperson asked me, it was my final decision. I said that you are valuable to the company and we should keep you. Lostlolly So what changed your mind in the 24 hours previous? Evilmanager I probably had time to think, I don’tknow. But that was my decision, at that point I could have said “No we shouldget rid of him” but I didn’t, I said “we should keep him”. Then we had a good two hour meeting with you, you told us all your problems and issues, we cleared everything. I left that night, everything was fine. Lostlolly That hasn’t changed the fact that you lied to me Evilmanager and that could happen at any time. Evilmanager You know, ok. Lostlolly That could happen at any stage.So that doesn’t change the fact going forward that our working relationship, how is that broken seam there in the working relationship ever going to be repaired? It is not. I have been here 13 years and when something like that happens you’re not ever going to fix that. If I had been here a week, fine, if I had been here a month, fine. Chairperson On the other side of it Lostlolly. Evilmanager The only way you have known any of thisis because you have listened to illegal recordings between two senior personnel. That is the only way. Lostlolly I would like you to define illegal and provide some documentation to that and I’ve discussed with Chairpersonin this part of the disciplinary that you were not here my reasons behind that,so you are not aware of those, until most likely you listen to this recording this afternoon and then you will be aware of those reasons. Chairperson Did at any time you go to Evilmanager anddid you say to Evilmanager “I want to listen to some voice recordings?”. Lostlolly No. But the profile that I used has always been the same profile. It has never changed. Chairperson Why did you do it on the admin profile? Lostlolly I have always used that one Chairpersonas I explained it what I read to you earlier on, my particular profile. Chairperson You didn’t use that Lostlolly Evilmanager You have an SP profile as well. Lostlolly I don’t think I have ever used that sir. Evilmanager Well, I can give you logs where you have used it. Lostlolly Ok, and maybe you can find the number of logs that I have used for admin. The Lostlolly P profile that is there, I don’t even know what the password is for that, the admin profile thatI have used is because, and you were aware of this, that since we had redbox Evilmanager I wasn’t aware. Lostlolly Yes, you were sir. Evilmanager I wasn’t. Lostlolly Yes – you were, the Lostlolly P profile would not search or replay any calls on my machine. I said that’s possibly an issue with my pc Evilmanager Does that give you the right to listen anybodys conversations in the whole company? Lostlolly You were aware that I used the admin profile sir. Evilmanager I wasn’t aware. Lostlolly It was yourself that gave me the password for the admin log. Evilmanager I wasn’t aware – I don’t know the password for the admin log myself. I didn’t give you the password for the admin profile. I don’t even know what it is myself, I’ve never used the admin profile. Lostlolly Well, we can debate that. Chairperson From our point of view, from our point of view Lostlolly, we, rightly or wrongly, ok, if you put yourself in our shoes we thought you used the admin password so you wouldn’t be seen to be using yourown personal password. Lostlolly No sir not at all. Chairperson Extracting information from our voice recorders. Lostlolly Why would I do that sir when itis logged by the I.P. address Chairperson Well, were you aware that there was a traceability on that machine. Lostlolly Of course, 100% I can show you where the logs are if you want to have a look. 100% sir. It gives you the I.P.address. Chairperson At the end of the day, what I’m saying when Evilmanager and I, or when Evilmanager had a meeting with Mark colleague, Markcolleague was fully clued up on everything because you had listened to the conversation. Lostlolly I actually disagree with that and I can give you. Chairperson You listened to the conversation and I believe that this rightly or wrongly, obviously you told Mark this is what theyare going to be doing because “I’ve listened to the conversation”. Lostlolly Completely untrue. Chairperson Ok? Lostlolly And I can tell you why that is untrue. Tell me the date that Mark was dismissed please? Tell me the date tha the had his appeal and tell me the date that I listened to the conversation.Then tell me that you haven’t already sent him the information beforehand! If you tally up the dates then you will realise they don’t correspond! So any of those conversations regarding Mark Evilmanager Bu twhy did you listen to the conversations about Mark? Lostlolly Because I was looking for supportive evidence to suggest why I can’t work for yourself. Chairperson But what was it to do with Mark colleague? Lostlolly Nothing sir, it was nothing todo with Mark colleague. Chairperson T Then why did you listen to those conversations? Lostlolly There were conversations in there that may have provided supportive evidence as to the dishonest dealingsof Evilmanager. So again, with regards to Mark colleague and any information passed to him that is not true. You have the information there yourself as to when those calls were listened to, when you sent him the letters, when he was dismissed, when he had his appeal. Evilmanager How was I dishonest with Mark? Lostlolly Because sir, when I came to see you about this, I phoned him that day when we were told that he was self harming, we had a conversation, we had some discussions and I went to see him and actually you kind of almost put this in the letter you sent that you sent to me in some respects, Mark was not booked for holidays the week after. We told him not to come in that night, he said he was fit to come to work. We said that he needed to take that night off, I went and picked him up the next day and brought him in. In that morning meeting you told him that he was not to come back to work until he had a doctors note. Evilmanager Correct. Lostlolly which would be suspending him. Evilmanager No. I never said that we suspended him. Lostlolly Ok. I believe that you eve nsuggested that you suspended him sir. Evilmanager I disagree completely. Lostlolly So, because he could not afford to take any time off I suggested that he take holidays those following days. It hen came to see you and said in my eyes that Mark should not have had to take holidays for that period because he was told not to come to work, until he had a doctors note. Evilmanager And its an amazing coincidence that Mark said those exact words in his appeal hearing. Lostlolly Well, he’s not stupid is he? Evilmanager He used those exact words that you have just used. Lostlolly He’s not stupid is he. Evilmanager But he never got that information from you? Lostlolly Well, no. Evilmanager But he used the exact same words that you’ve just used. Lostlolly Well, he’s not stupid is he. Atthe end of the day why is that of any concern if its not dishonest? Evilmanager You made a point about looking for evidence of my dishonesty, going back to January. Lostlolly Can I ask you another question sir? Evilmanager No, this isn’t about me but. Lostlolly You are a witness in some respects so it is about you. Evilmanager I haven’t finished talking about the incidents in January. Lostlolly No problem, ok. Evilmanager He wasn’t suspended because we didn’tgive him a letter. Lostlolly You are right – you didn’t give hima letter which would make the suspension wrong. Evilmanager We didn’t give him a letter because we just made him absent. We said you are not fit to work, its an absence, it wasn’t a suspension. So it’s a different thing. Lostlolly When I came to see you to raise that point why did you say leave it until he complains and then we will look at it then? Evilmanager I can’t remember those words. Lostlolly Ok, so as you are a witness to as to why I was suggesting my position was untenable can you confirm to me that you altered documents with reference to Lady colleague? You changed the wording on her final written warning to make it easier to simplify the case to dismiss her? Chairperson Why is this relevant? Lostlolly It is relevant Chairperson tot he supportive evidence I was looking for as to why I can’t work for Evilmanager.Why he is dishonest. Could you confirm that sir? Evilmanager No I can’t. Lostlolly No you can’t? Evilmanager No I can’t. Lostlolly You deny that? Evilmanager I do yes. Lostlolly Ok, you do know that there is proof to that? That you changed that. Evilmanager No, there was, a, confusion over two letters, which we have already explained to Angie, but this is not relevant here. Lostlolly But it is sir. Evilmanager Its completey irrelevant. Lostlolly Its not – its relevant to thewhole situation. Chairperson Lostlolly – this disciplinary is betweenyou and COMPANY, nothing to do with Lady colleague, is it? Lostlolly No, but it is to do with supportive evidence as to why I’ve raised a grievance and as to why I can’t continue to work here. Evilmanager Who made you aware of those letters to dowith Lady colleague by the way? Lostlolly Who made me aware? Evilmanager How did you come to know about those? Lostlolly How did I come to know? Evilmanager Yes. Lostlolly How did I come to know thatinformation? Well, that’s irrelevant in some respects. But im assuming itscorrect. You may find that Angelina sought some advice from me because the two letters were different. Evilmanager So, yes. So you helped Lady colleague at that time? Lostlolly Were you being dishonest,malpractice within the company sir? Evilmanager I wasn’t. Lostlolly Malpractice within the company.Malpractice. That wasn’t dishonest? Evilmanager It wasn’t. It wasn’t dishonest at all,no. Lostlolly To change the wording to simplify the case to dismiss her. I disagree. I can tell you why I disagree.Because she is the only person who has been in a disciplinary that has been dismissed that the company took back, and the company took her back because they were concerned about how much it would cost if she was dismissed. Chairperson I think that is something personalbetween Lady colleague and us to be quite honest. Evilmanager You just admitted that you helped Ladycolleague? Don’t you think that is dishonest? Going behind our backs? Lostlolly Not at all sir. Evilmanager That’s not being dishonest to your employers? Lostlolly I don’t think so. To my employers? I do have a right to the employer but I think I have a right to be honest with employees as well, and I think you have a right as a manager to be honest with employees, which obviously is a problem for you. Unfortunately. Evilmanager In your opinion. Lostlolly To the most senior of your employees, in me. Evilmanager In your opinion. Lostlolly I dread to think how you treat lower, actually I know how you treat lower level employees because I have worked with you for long enough. Chairperson But Lostlolly, Hang on a minute, Youstarted with us according to your file in 1999. Lostlolly October 1999. Chairperson Well, the thing is, why has it taken all this time for you to state that its untenable and you cant work with Evil manager?You’ve worked with Evilmanager since 1999 but what appears in these conversations is that you appear to be helping everybody, or certain people Lostlolly,against this company. Right, are you on the side of the employees or are you on the side of the employer? There is a fence. Lostlolly I would like to think that I’mon the side of justice. Chairperson Pardon? Lostlolly I would like to think that I’m honest, so whichever side that you think that might fall on? If the company are being dishonest in practice then does that make it correct that it is ignored?That its allowed to continue? That its allowed to carry on? Chairperson I don’t believe that we are being dishonest, quite honestly. For personal reasons, Lady colleague was taken back on but that’s to do with me, Evilmanager and Lady colleague. I don’t see that’sgot anything to do with anybody else in this place, Right? And the reason that Mark colleague was dismissed is because we decided to dismiss him, right?I don’t like you saying that there is malpractice going off in this place.There are 96 people working in this place now, right, and its been going since,touchwood, 1987, so, and he (gesturing to Evilmanager) has been with me or in this company since Christ knows when. When was it? I don’t know. Evilmanager 1988. Chairperson So, but at the end of the day, we still come down to the reason, yes, there is a lot of water gone under the bridge, at the end of the day you still listened to personal and private conversations. Lostlolly I don’t deny that sir, and I have given you my reasons as to why that was, rightly or wrongly then I have provided you with my reasons. Chairperson Have you got anything else you want tosay? Lostlolly No, thankyou for your time. Chairperson Well, thank you for yours. Lostlolly Other than it is not personal. Chairperson Listen, its not personal, its not personal. Nobody is having a personal dig at you but what we will do is have a discussion now, and you need to think about it as well, and we’ll then decide,and come to an arrangement between us. Lostlolly Brilliant. If you could arrange for Karl to run me a copy of the recording and put it on a disk, I’ll wait downstairs. Chairperson Absolutely, absolutely.