Thanks for your advice everyone, so we should be OK as we are, I feel a bit happier now. The fixed term is only six months anyway.

Just that the contract may not be legally binding and that, in the unlikely event we had to go to court for any reason, we'd be relying on a statutory tenancy. For example, the tenancy agreement grants a minimum term and if it was not valid, we would have no minimum term?

Hi, thanks everyone. I just checked over the contract again and there doesn't seem to be anywhere for the tenant to sign the copy from the Landlord (it just says Landlords signature). I can't remember if this was the case with the one we signed (i.e. just space for us to sign), the copy is at home so I can't look right now. I'm a little concerned now, I just thought that it was a different way of doing it (it's a major letting agency, so I assumed they'd know). However, I'm aware that a tenancy is created regardless and we can't just be kicked out But, just out of interest; would a judge not take the contract into account, as we have a copy with the landlords signature on, so he couldn't claim there wasn't one? Do they need to be originals to be binding, or are copies OK?

Hi, I have, what I hope, is a simple question. We've just entered into an Assured Shorthold Tenancy agreement and moved into the flat. When we signed the tenancy contract, ours were the only signatures on it, so I expected to get a copy with the landlords signature on it. When we did, it was another copy of the contract with just his signature on it and not ours (and it was a scanned copy via email, not original). So we have no contract with both our original signatures on it, is this a less common practice, I've never seen this before? Is it still legally binding? Previously, we've always signed two copies of the contract, which either included the landlords signature already, or his/hers was added and forwarded on to us later. Thanks, Andy.

I decided to send one final email to technical support, I wanted to give them a final chance to answer my questions. I re-iterated everything and added the comments about the refund being for the License, not the software. I also asked that if they where unable to answer all my questions, to provide me with details of how and who to escalate the matter to. I don't expect much from them, based on current experience, so will see what they say.

LOL .. yeah couldn't make it up They just replied, re-iterating the procedure for a refund .. send laptop in .. pay £51.99 .. cheque will be sent for £33.95. They also re-iterated the 30 day limit. They mentioned nothing about the call centre again, gave me no reference number and still have not answered any of my questions. Getting annoyed now! I get the distinct feeling of going round in circles. Wondering whether to include the reference to small claims court in this reply.

Lol, I just like to be prepared I called Acer and the agent I spoke to, first of all had no idea what I was talking about, then when he understood, he said that a refund was not possible. I explained the email conversation said it was and what the value of the refund was. He asked for a reference number or the serial number of my laptop. Now, I've never had any reference numbers in any of the emails and they've never asked for my serial number, so no reference and the serial number would be useless. He said without a reference number or serial number he could not help. I've replied to the email asking them to provide a reference number to quote to the call centre. Surely the person who sent the email would have known that this would be required and could've provided it for me, rather than me waste a 12 minute call at 35p/minute!

Reply from Acer: Please contact our dedicated call centre below this email who will be happy to assist you with this. Not quite sure what to make of this. Whether it's them realising I'm not giving up and they can't fob me off, or something else? Only one way to find out I guess! They've still not sent the Microsoft form they keep referring to. I've asked twice now. Oh and .. sorry .. I forgot to mention something else I said in my email. I commented that I thought the cost of handling the refund seemed disproportionate to the refund itself and it would actually result in a cost to me. Maybe they realised I can do maths? Will need to go through all the comments again to prepare for the call. Make sure I'm ready for anything they throw at me.

Just a thought, is it worth mentioning Trading Standards at all, as well as Small Claims Court?

From what I can see this requires the shop to sign a form? I purchased my laptop on-line, so this is not going to be possible. Although Acer did mention there is a Microsoft form to fill in, not sure what this yet. Thanks for the tips with the license sticker I basically said in my email that I had video footage and offered this as an alternative to sending the laptop to them. I also asked if it's possible to get an electronic copy of the Microsoft form they refered to. If I get nowhere after this, I'll start mentioning the fact it's the license that's being refunded, not the software, is that correct? So there should be no need to return the laptop? If they still refuse then next step is to mention Small Claims Court and bringing laptop as evidence? I don't want to drag it out too long as I'm concious of the 30 day limit, which they also mentioned to me. I purchased the laptop on 30/09/2009, so with the emails going back and forth (plus weekends), I've used 12 days so far, only 18 left!

I would just like to say thanks to everyone for their comments, expecially GraceCourt and human.error. I was extremely tired over the weekend, so apologies if any of my comments seemed a little erratic or odd! I certainly don't confess to having any legal understanding whatsoever, hence the reason I came here GraceCourt, regarding your advice about video footage. Sorry, I think I may have forgotten to mention that I did take footage of me getting to the EULA and then installing Linux. Although, the format of the accept/decline is different to previous versions I believe. It's now just a tick box that you have to tick to accept. If you don't tick the box, the "next" button will not work. So I simply filmed it get to this point, show me trying to click next and it doing nothing, then switch the machine off (only option left) and installing Linux. I filmed the entire process. So if i understand correctly, I'm not actually obtaining a refund for the software physically on the drive, but for the license itself (essentially the sticker on the bottom), which Acer has paid or will pay on my behalf to Microsoft? As I have not accepted the terms of the license, no contract exists between myself and Microsoft (via Acer), therefore Acer paid Microsoft on my behalf under a non-existent Contract? Like andydd says, this has got complicated, so sorry if I'm not understanding correctly I'm going to reply to Acer and suggest forwarding the video footage (and the license sticker) as an alternative and see what they say. Any other suggestions what to include in the email? Should I also point out that it's the license being refunded and not the software? Thanks, Andy.

Not simple. I specifically asked for the laptop to come without windows pre-installed, I told them I didn't want it, but they said they cannot do that. I asked if they sold any without windows, they said no. Everywhere I tried to buy a laptop I got the same answer, that I had to have windows, there was no choice. This is the key word "no choice". Why should a consumer have to go to such great, almost impossible lengths to avoid Microsoft and accept less for their money? Do you think this is acceptable? Why do they allow you to modify the rest of the specification, memory, processor, video card, etc., but not the OS? Why not the OS, what are they afraid of!? It's not like I'm asking them to understand or support the OS I choose, just supply it without one! But I can remove windows, in fact I have. Why is it ridiculous? Such a stupid thing? You mean consumer rights? The right to choose freely, without being heavily influenced by a major company like Microsoft? The right to not have Microsoft dictate that everyone user their software? Of course I see that. I didn't buy it separately. But I didn't want Windows bundled, none of the major stores/manufacturers give you the choice to not have it installed. What, offering to look at my laptop at a cost of £18.04, with no real benefit? I wonder, if all the major stores asked the question "Did you want that with Microsoft Vista installed?", how many people who had never heard of or even realised there was an alternative, would wonder what the alternatives where. Then if they where told some of the alternative where free, what they would say? Quote from BBC News: "In early 2008, Microsoft was fined 899m euros (£765m) by the European Commission for anti-competitive behaviour over bundling in the media player and browser into Windows." IE is a free download, what would people say if they became aware there was a free alternative to the OS itself? Is this not the same principle, in fact possibly worse as money is involved? Windows is bundled on the vast majority of computers sold, with no other choice available. Surely that can also be considered anti-competitive? Sorry, rant over, I'm getting down of my soap box now

That was my first thought too, where do I sign? LMAO

Just got another reply from Acer. They will refund me £33.95 for Windows Vista Home Premium, as long as I pay them £51.99 to return it to them to check it has been removed! So, let me get this straight, they want to charge me £18.04 to see that I have indeed removed Windows Vista as I said I did and nothing else! I read somewhere that all Microsoft requires to process the refund, is the licence certificate from the machine, as without it, the license is no longer valid. Can't remember where though

Partially good news, just got this from Acer: We can refund the copy of Windows, to do this we would need to have the unit brought down to us to wipe the hard disc and some Microsoft forms filled out by you. This costs £51.99, from there the refund for Windows then be sent out to you. Well as expected, they asked me to send the laptop back to them to be wiped, at an additional cost. As I said to them in my original email, I have already wiped the drive myself and installed Kubuntu Linux. They didn't say how much the refund would be either, but I'm guessing it won't be more than £51.99. If the refund amount is less, then essentially I'm being asked to pay Acer to take my laptop away for some time, do nothing with it (as I've already done it) and then return it? Why!? What difference does it make if I do it, or they do it? As there is really no obvious difference, the only other possibility, is they want to put me off getting the refund Putting all this aside, I'm actually quite pleased that I got this far so quickly! I've sent a reply repeating that I've already wiped the drive myself, so sending it to them to repeat this seems unnecessary, I should just need to return the Microsoft forms (whatever they are!?). I also asked them to confirm the refund amount.

I also thought Dell sold without OS or Linux installed, but I called them ready to order and they told me that they definitely do not. He went and double checked and that was their final answer As MrShed mentions, this is against the OEM license, besides I got no discs with the laptop, only what was on the Hard Disk, so I have nothing to sell anyway. But the other items "bundled" with the laptop do not come with a seperate agreement, specifically providing for a refund.

Yes it was pre-installed, but I must have paid something for it, as Microsoft Vista is not a free product. There was nothing in the description saying the OS was included free of charge, it was simply included in the list of items installed in the laptop; RAM, Processor, Graphics Card etc. I assume I paid for all these other items (otherwise the laptop would be free), so as the OS is in the same list, I can assume it is under the same terms and I paid for that also. The Microsoft EULA agreement clearly states I'm entitled to a refund for the OS if I do not agree to the terms, which I do not. Here is the relevant paragraph again for reference: By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the software. Instead, contact the manufacturer or installer to determine their return policy for a refund or credit. Maybe I misunderstood here, but if the price is higher when Microsoft Windows is included, surely I've paid the extra for it and not just donated money to Acer

I would really love to have bought a laptop without Microsoft installed, but the reality is that this is very difficult for the average consumer to do this. I contacted several major online retailers and high street stores, all of them said that they could not supply one without Microsoft Windows installed. If the EULA doesn't apply, why is it included on the machine, separately to the Acer EULA? I can agree (or not agree) to the Acer EULA (for the laptop hardware) separately to the EULA for Microsoft and the Microsoft EULA clearly states I'm entitled to a refund if I do not agree to it. I agree to the Acer EULA, but not the Microsoft one, so the wording is clear, I'm entitled to a refund for Microsoft Windows Vista. So yes, the OS is pre-installed but I have not agreed to the license required use it, that is done (or not done) after purchase, when the machine first starts and EULA is displayed. Please see above. I don't think that's an entirely accurate analogy. The remote control does not come with a seperate license agreement to the TV, entitling you to a refund for the remote control if you reject it.

I got a reply from Acer, fairly quickly actually, it basically states the following: "You will need to contact Microsoft as this is their operating system and not ours." That was all they said! Well, I had actually guessed it was not Acer's operating system to be honest (what with it saying "Microsoft" on it and all that), but thanks for clarifying that anyway I've just replied quoting the paragrah from the EULA that specifically states to contact the manufacturer! Not a lot more you can say to that response really. A good point, maybe something to spend my refund on! Although on the flip side, my partner has had the same model as myself (the reason I got it) for over a year now and had no problems with it whatsoever. But I have to admit, £30-40 for three years cover is actually not too bad. I'd definitely take lots of pictures. But I don't really want to be sending it back, in fact I'll be contacting Trading Standards and any other agency/media I can think of before that happens! By bizarre coincidence, my partner has ordered a brand new HD camcorder which is being delivered today, so that will come in handy for filming anything. Good idea about contacting Microsoft, I wonder what they'll have to say about Acer referring me to them.

May I ask why you recommend this? I've personally never purchased any extended warranties before, as I've always believed them to be a bit of a waste of money? I sent them an email requesting information on how to obtain the refund, so will see what they say .. I read through that success story and noticed they offered around £40 for XP Professional, so not sure what they'll offer for Vista Home Premium. Maybe it could be worth it I'm not sure what I'll do if they insist on returning it at my expense. aside from the arguments above for being able to do it remotely, why should I have to pay for them to comply with the agreement they included on their product? Also mentioned on the forum thread (I've installed Linux, now give me my Windows refund - FedoraForum.org), is that it may also be a good idea to complain to the European Competition Commission, it can't hurt, so I will also be doing that. I just used the online chat facility on the europa website (European Commission - Europe Direct - Web Assistance), they where very helpful and gave me the direct link to the complaint form .. Europa - European Commission - Competition - Consumer Liaison Office I'll keep you posted .... :-|

Hi human.error, thanks for the comments, unfortunately as I've already purchased, it's too late for the link you suggested .. but I got a very good deal with the one I got from Acer anyway I called Dell before buying one as I was deciding between the Dell and the Acer. Dell categorically said "they could not provide it without an OS and DO NOT do refunds for Windows"! So that's why I didn't go for that one, they lost a customer! I agree, there should be no reason to send it away, like you say we live in a technological age LOL. Besides they're technical support, be technical But if Acer will only refund around £7 too (I really can't believe Dell pay so little), then to be honest .. is it worth it!? I guess it depends on whether I want to do it on principle. I'm still going to contact Acer to see what they say, but you can't contact them until you register your machine and I forgot to do that over the weekend Do you agree that the principle of being "forced" an OS is wrong?

Hi, I just purchased a new laptop and didn't want a Microsoft Operating System (OS) installed on it. I asked in lots of places if they sold computers with either Linux installed or no OS and every store (online and high street) I asked said no, it has to come with Microsoft. They could not even remove it for me. Now, Microsoft is not free (obviously ), so I have therefore been forced to pay for it even though I did not ask for it or want it. My laptop came with Windows Vista Home Premium installed, which I'm guessing they would have charged me around £50 for, as they do not pay the RRP, but the OEM price. So I've been forced to pay something in the region of £50 to Microsoft for a piece of their software that I won't be using and didn't want. This is not to mention Microsoft Works and other bundled software on the machine. This is what's referred to as the "Microsoft Tax" and makes me (and others) angry! The Microsoft EULA (End User License Agreement), which I read when the machine first started up, contains the following: By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the software. Instead, contact the manufacturer or installer to determine their return policy for a refund or credit. I've done some research on the internet and it seems that Acer (along with all other manufacturers) are not that happy to honour this term. Acer in particular apparently will charge me around £53 (courier fees) for the machine to be sent into their "repair" centre to see that I've removed Windows or remove it themselves. So in effect it seems likely that I'll actually get charged more than the refund amount to get my refund!? Surely this behaviour is questionable (if not illegal) under competition laws and probably consumer protection laws? I'm now uncertain whether to pursue getting my refund at all and just accept the fact that Microsoft get money off me even though I don't use their software Is anyone else in the same situation? Does anyone have any suggestions or advice? If I do go ahead, there's a possibility I may need to take legal action, which I would be nervous about and not know where to start. So I'd also like to know if this forum is the right place for advice should I decide to go ahead? Thanks, Andy.

All went as promised, money was refunded on the 6th March! I now have everything back they charged!

Hi electric, I recently had some charges applied to my account (seehttp://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/alliance-leicester/185772-venting-frustration-about-charges.html), but nowhere near as much as you! I just gave them a call and they refunded them fairly quickly. I don't know what others on here will suggest, but a quick call might be worth a try? Three days to move money within the same bank is ridiculous! With other banks, this happens instantly! Good luck getting your money back!

GOOD NEWS .. I called them again this morning to see why they hadn't cancelled the daily fee charges of £20 and .. shock .. amazement .. it's flagged on their system to be refunded. But the refund will be made on the same day as the charge, which is why I don't see anything yet. So if all goes well, they will have refunded all my money within 2 weeks! Can't help but wonder if this had anything to do with them failing the appeal!