Is that 

1 hour ago, ericsbrother said:

enter paypal dispute to get refund that way

is it quite straightforward to do ? 
never had to do it before - how long does. It take please ? 

Thank you @bankfodder 

It will be a lesson unfortunately learnt , I assumed that as a well known business I would have been safe placing an order with this business - I will know  to look at trust pilot now ! Thank you 

I am hoping that the PayPal route will be my way forward as Opposed to the more formal route, but agree that in the pandemic most insurance will be null and void . It’s potentially an unfortunate lesson 

I would absolutely support any business in these unprecedented times but it looks like this company has form. Their customer service and social media team are horrific to deal with , they make you feel unjustified in requesting your money back using the covid 19 situation saying their priority is keeping their staff safe ( which I agree with )  I asked for their MD email address which they refused to give , saying it was a breach of privacy , when I found him on LinkedIn I asked for their email configuration , again they refused saying I would be breaching his privacy. 
 

NEVER AGAIN !!! 
 

hopefully someone on here may be able to point me in the direction of PayPal refunds ? 
 

thanks again 

Hi 

please can you help me ? I sent a large online order back  worth £295 back to chi chi clothing ( stocked in John Lewis and ASOS so not too small a company ) on the 19th March which was received into the business , and I had an emaIl  confirming They were in receipt of it And they would be processing my refund and it would be back within 5-10 working days , when this was up .

 I emailed again and was told due to covid 19 this would be 21days , after 21 days I emailed again and got a dreadful replay saying their refunds are now taking up to 30 days which is stipulated on their website .

It is day 30 today - what legal rights do I have or how do I move this forward ? My

Personal circumstances have changed and I’m desperate for this money , from reading their FB and Twitter it’s full of unhappy customers in the same boat . It appears they could have cash flow issues 

I paid with PayPal if that’s any help - I just need my money back

thank you 

9 hours ago, Emmzzi said:

No worries. I wish I could offer more but I’ve spent the week balancing ethics/cash/legal consideration at my own company.

 

i have no good answers. Right now, every option sucks.

You have been great and the support from

you and this forum has been so invaluable- thank you  

It’s a very tricky world to navigate and businesses have to make decision that may not always be ethical, but necessary to keep trading .

Hopefully we all make through this challenging time without too many awful decisions .

I did think it was a risky gamble - announced to whole business they could invoke a clause in the contract.

With the knowledge that potentially in 1 or 2 months times that there will be no business . 
 

risky strategy but I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures 

he said he will contact ACAS tomorrow

thanks  ( as ever ) for the speedy reply

Hi

Still waiting on an outcome of hearing , but really keen to understand a diff perspective regarding changing contracts 

The company have changed a number of factors within BIL contract , without him signing anything ( to be fair the whole company has ) 

He has been moved from a months notice period to a zero hours contract without signing a new contract 

Also sick pay revoked and moved to SSP 

is this lawful ? Can they evoke any clauses without BIL  signing anything ? 
the company is in dire straits - so I appreciate the money situation is extremely tight, but I want to check if they can enforce this.

thanks 

1 hour ago, Emmzzi said:

He'll be required to explain what happened from his perspective. The investigator will them compare statements and any other evidence, and decide if there is a case to hear. If there is reasonable doubt/ belief, there will then be a hearing.

 

He should dispassionately present the timeline, including conflict of interest/ meeting conversation, etc. 

 

Given today's news I would be amazed if anything happens this week.

 
Will keep you updated 

thank you  

4 minutes ago, Emmzzi said:

It's an investigation meeting, not a disciplinary. Think of it as a fact find. He won't get details in advance as some people use the time to make up their story.

 

BIL may be reading too much into boss's actions. It really is an awful time to be in business! And easy to get paranoid over trivia. My boss has asked for late meetings today because of government announcements. She's too distracted to remember which of us have kids to collect! We will also have to have drastic cost saving measures. No bonuses isn't the half of it.

 

Don't look for malice.

Makes Sense - he is in such shock that I think he’s thinking worse case scenario in everything - although when talking to his boss he did reiterate about “what do you think the accuser will do when this doesn’t go her way - she won’t go away quietly “

Will he be required to comment on  Record re the accusations at the hearing or will he get another chance to provide evidence / disregard accusers story ?

its not an easy time for anyone , so I agree pay-cuts/bonus reductions  will be necessary for businesses to stay afloat : 

thanks again - super helpful advice

7 hours ago, Emmzzi said:

I personally would not suspend under those circumstances. Although, I do only have your second hand account of events, so no guarantees!

As an update , they have yet to confirm when the grievance hearing  to take place - they think it’s Friday 

However  when my BIL asked for the  allegations against him , and the grievance /allegations in writing he was told he wasn’t able to see them until the day of the investigation- is this allowed ? He has no time to collate any evidence  or Defense . 

No mention of suspension , but odd behaviour from his boss , who he feels wants him to resign to save any headaches . Asking questions about previous meetings he has had  to corroborate where he has spent his time ( never happened before ) and scheduled a meeting tomorrow for 5.39pm which has never happened ( and BIL ) usually leaves at 5.30pm

as has childcare commitments .

His boss has also talked off the record about having to stop a guaranteed bonus that BIL has had for over a year but has positioned because of Corona. BIL has said previously he was worried about the his bonus ever being stopped as it would mean he need to look for another job to his boss  , he was assured that this wouldn’t happen unless of extraordinary circumstances ( this is now being classed as because of corona virus )  it all points to trying to exit him to save any payout to accuser

1 hour ago, Emmzzi said:

Reasons a business may legitimately consider suspension are:-

a.there is a risk to an employee’s health or safety

b.the employee could tamper with evidence or we believe they may try and influence witnesses

c.property, or the business of the organisation, may be damaged

d.working relationships have broken down

 

If it is mooted, he should clarify which of these is being suggested.

 

Then, alternatives should be considered..

- temporary transfer

- working from home

- change of duties/ role

- change of work schedule to eradicate flashpoints 

 

Under current circumstances, working from home should not even raise an eyebrow, case wise (possibly health wise, but people are going to speculate)

 

 The accuser works in a different office and is already under remote working due to the current situation .

the accuser has already been given a diff line manager whilst this is being looked into 

would that suffice to mitigate the risk in point a ( the accusers health and safety ) 

and the other key points potentially could not apply as there are no witnesses to confirm or deny allegation ? 
 

I will know more today as it unfold 

thanks again 

2 minutes ago, honeybee13 said:

I would say that joining a union part way through the process is like taking out insurance after you've had a car accident. I believe unions usually have a waiting period before you can ask for help.

 

HB

That makes sense - similar to taking out holiday cover prior to travel in this market ! 
 

hope I can still get responses from the HR expert after my error ! ( genuine mistake - I have shelved the idea of counter grievance and defamation following this advice ) 

5 minutes ago, Emmzzi said:

 

If you don't want to listen - I don't want to respond. Good luck.

Sorry I posted that in error - I am not great with my phone !! I have been using your advice as a guide and really do want to listen !

please don’t cut off comms as I feel your really supporting - I’m still learning how to respond individually to people and somehow copied that to reply to my last comment ( you will see in how I replied I think ? ) 

hope you can agree

my question. About non neutral act of suspension - I would love your opinion 

6 hours ago, Manxman in exile said:

As unclebulgaria says (#21) any accusation of sexual harassment has to be taken seriously by the employer.  This does not mean that the employer automatically has to believe it.  It means the employer has to investigate it properly and not assume guilt or innocence

 

I am perhaps a little surprised that your BiL hasn't been suspended on full pay(?).  Again, suspension does not mean that the employer thinks your BiL is guilty, it helps them to be able to show that they've investigated the accusations fully and your BiL has had no opportunity to affect the investigation - not that he would.  Is the person making the allegations still at work or are they currently suspended?

 

I think you've only mentioned a disciplinary meeting for your brother?  Hasn't he also been invited to an investigatory meeting for him to put his side of what did or did not happen?  They can't discipline anybody until they've investigated, and any investigation must, I would have thought, be incomplete until your brother (and any witnesses he may have) have had their say.

 

When it comes to a disciplinary meeting (if it does) I understand he is entitled to be accompanied by a union rep or a work colleague.  If I'm wrong, someone will correct me.

 

As you've not answered the question, I assume he's not in a union.  After this is over, he should join one.  (Well I would...)

The accuser submitted the information last week and hasn’t had her formal hearing yet 

With regards to suspension- I have read  it can be seen as an non neutral act and can be challenged - is this correct ? He is desperately trying to keep BAU as is very worried if he is suspended his reputation. Will damaged without repair ( guilty until prove innocent) 

Unfortunately not part of a union and my advice will be to join one. I assume you can’t join one half way through ? He has only been told off the record , not formally  I don’t think - so could he still join if he hasn’t been invited to a grievance hearing yet. 

The accuser has lied about a conflict of interest and was about to be exited from the company on this basis 

As the line manager my BIL was fully aware and supported by the MD in this process 

I think that exploring his position with a solicitor my help

9 hours ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

" For context the accuser has an open case of misleading and lying to the company for which the disciplinary position was about to be started"

 

Who have you obtained all of the information from, such as above ?

 

An accusation about sexual harassment, may be seen as not something anyone would do easily, so don't be surprised if it is taken very seriously.  If the person making the allegations, provides enough details, then your BIL will be in a very difficult position.  Hence why it may become necessary at some stage to seek professional legal help.

9 hours ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

" For context the accuser has an open case of misleading and lying to the company for which the disciplinary position was about to be started"

 

Who have you obtained all of the information from, such as above ?

 

An accusation about sexual harassment, may be seen as not something anyone would do easily, so don't be surprised if it is taken very seriously.  If the person making the allegations, provides enough details, then your BIL will be in a very difficult position.  Hence why it may become necessary at some stage to seek professional legal help.

And also how beneficial would a counter grievance be - “would defamation of character be suitable ? “

7 minutes ago, Emmzzi said:

It won't get  as far as an external process. They'll refuse to let him bring a lawyer into the room. Unless they are really stupid.

 

I could get a crime reference number for anything I like tomorrow. Doesn't mean it's a crime. 

 

I can't make his employer develop guts. I can suggest a settlement agreement is so much cheaper than at ET.

 

Has he been suspended? If they think she;' at serious risk, he'll be suspended.

He hasn’t been suspended ( yet) but the formal meeting hasn’t happened as yet 

These  are all “off the record “conversations so far - everything starts tomorrow 

He wants to protect his job and his reputation , but for lack of evidence on either side how does he ? 
 

She has history of lying ( lieD  about conflict of interest ) then admitted when questioned several times she does have a conflict of interest 

She submitted the claim after she saw a meeting in my BIL online calendar that was named after her ( the meeting was with the MD who put the meeting without making it private ! stupid - yes unfortunately )  she rang my BIL to demand what the meeting was about , why is it about me , my BIL said it was about  her conflict of interest - she had been asked to put together a proposal to show why it wasn’t a conflict . She hung up 

Then she submitted her claim 

9 minutes ago, Ethel Street said:

 

 

That is not evidence of anything except that the complainant has reported it to the police, probably online. In effect it's just an administrative file number that says "you have reported an alleged crime". It doesn't mean the police agree a crime has been committed at all, let alone that your BiL is guilty of anything. The more important question is whether the police have been in contact with your BiL to say they are investigating it, and if they do what the outcome is.

No communication from the police at all.

which is reassuring , but they have no idea of when she reported it.

7 minutes ago, Emmzzi said:

Legal advice is good but note as soon as he starts trying to take a lawyer into meetings, it becomes an external process not an internal.

The test here is "balance of probability." Many years clean record, character references,  suggestion of motive due to discovered conflict of interest (trigger incident) will all be of assistance.

 

If the planned dismissal was due to a serious conflict of interest with the business, it can still go ahead - that won't have changed. I'm not sure why BIL thinks it will have? Either she's working at odds or she is not. Harassment doesn't change that.

 

 

Thank you

 Out of interest -  What changes if it becomes an external process ? 
 

His due concern is that due to the covid outbreak the business is already on a tight financial schedule ( adjusted bonuses coming into play etc )  and they simply cannot afford a tribunal to go against them .

With the accuser having a crime ref number they have suddenly viewed it so much more seriously and have mentioned that she may attack the business also ( email clients stating she left due to sexual harassment etc ) 

off the record the MD has said he believes my BIL but he also said sexual harrasment is a very hard thing to recover from , proven or not 

the mixed messages are worrying him

the md also said that the accused wants to stay in her job and wants him sacked . She wants to stay , the conflict of interest is serious and still there but they are nervous of proceeding to not upset her and herein the problem lies . 

if my BIL is dismissed due to this - what grounds does he have ? He said he would accept a warning if he could keep his job if that would be enough , but I worry about him accepting that - especially as he a not guilty ? 
 

thank you 

6 minutes ago, honeybee13 said:

I apologise for nagging but please could we have paragraphs with spacing in between them?

 

If you want people to help, you have to make it easy for them to read your posts. The site team and I can't always be around to edit.

 

HB

Sorry   

Typing far too fast - will ensure I do , as all advice is much appreciated

Thank you both - he’s really struggling to contemplate how he defends himself so at this time we were discussing options and a counter grievance was  a form of defence idea ? 

i appreciate points of view from anyone who can support.

The context behind a counter grievance was to demonstrate that the claims were that ludicrous he felt it was the only way he could demonstrate his innocence .

the challenge is when the accused is saying he made a pass / tried to kiss , they were in a place with no witnesses .

Also the accuser is known to greet people with a double kiss on the cheek , colleagues and such like ( including BIL) so at some point they will have had physical contact, he can’t NOT say he didn’t kiss her upon greeting or saying goodbye as instigated by accuser .  

This is where he feels he can’t prove his innocence and is worried he will be seen as the easy option to potentially dismiss , as they have already suggested they are worried about accusers capacity to take this further .

they are a small business with limited HR knowledge and no HR presence onsite .

Would you recommend my BIL consults / seek out legal advice ?

angain thanks you for your support /advice 

And also how beneficial would a counter grievance be - “would defamation of character be suitable ? “

Hi 

thank you so much for your reply

the company is small and outsources their HR - he has the opportunity to discuss all HR matters with the outsourced company but is worried that it may not be confidential due to them running the investigation also. 

He has briefed about the accusations ( in an off the record chat) and one of the snr management team has said “the good news is that everything is circumstantial “ and there is no evidence .

It’s a classic case of he said , she said.

My BIL worries that as the company is so risk averse and in light of the fact that they were due to be exiting the accuser from the business , they now feel if they  do take no action against my BIL ( IMO )  that it will be inflammatory To the accuser and will create more problems .

in his mind the cleaner simpler scenario would be to exit my BIL ( 3 years service ) rather than the accuser ( 5 months service )

Thanks for your reply

At this moment , he is due to have a disciplinary meeting once the formal grievance has been heard from the accusers perspective . 

He has been told in an off the record conversation that this is what he has been accused of - the meetings are due to take place later this week 

My wonderful brother in law has been falsely accused of sexual harassment Â*and bullying in a grievance brought by a person he directly line manages. This person has stipulated that my BIL has made unwelcome advances Â*and tried to kiss them , which was rebuked .

The accuser is then saying they have been bullied and treated differently by my brother in law due to them saying no. For context the accuser has an open case of misleading and lying to the company for which the disciplinary position was about to be started . The accuser knew this , they have less than 6 months service and was about to be terminated , not due to poor performance but for conflict of interest . However the accuser has now put this in writing , and has crime ref number to support the claim of unwanted advance.

How does my BIL successfully defend himself in this which is merely a case of the accusers word against theirs . . It’s an incredibly stressful time and the company is very worried that if they don’t act correctly that the accuser could take this to the papers or tribunal , i feel my BIL will be the fall guy to appease the accuser and save the company a potential payout .

What can he do ?Â*he has a perfect record , and there is no evidence that substantiates the accusers claims, it’s a last ditch attempt by someone trying to wreak havoc on his career to which he is devastated . What can he do to help himself now ?