now you're just being silly :/

and labelling someone for dropping a cigarette as 'a criminal'.... wow (biodegradable roll up too )...madness

I'll be honest - I don't see the 'harrassment' angle of this at all - it's like saying that I was being harrassed by the police officer that happened to be in the same carpark as me this morning and because I did something illegal he/she stopped me.

 

Likewise I would imagine places that are 'easy targets' are those with the highest level of offending - makes perfect sense really to have an enforcement officer there; just like you'd position a speed camera where people are likely to drive at excessive speed...

I disagree, & still feel its harassment.. they blend in and focus on people smoking or stand by the doorway waiting for someones receipt to get swept away with the wind...there's often signs to warm motorists that speed cameras are ahead, when the police are doing speed checks they wear high vis jackets...

this is just business...or plain skullduggery

personally I don't think its worth letting it go to court but if I ever spot one of these people in any supermarket carpark again I will complain to the store manager that their customers are being harassed and I'd like to think that the manager will ask them to move on, the seem to haunt places that are an easy target, it's just easy money at the end of the day

I agree, he wouldn't win in court and there really isn't any point in trying....at least it was challenged and I haven't spotted any more of 'them' in sainsburys car park

I quite agree with you it is utter *rubbish and I dislike the appeal process, I feel I should be able to respond rather then the only option is to go to court where a £60 could end up a much higher amount....

long winded (probably template cut and paste) yet expected response to the appeal...

I have reviewed the Fixed Penalty Notice that was issued to you for the offence committed on 11th February 2016 at Sainsbury’s Car Park, Upton, Wirral. I have also reviewed the body camera footage of the interaction between yourself and our officer. In addition to that I have spoken with the issuing officer in regards to their observations before issuing you with the Fixed Penalty Notice and I am satisfied the Fixed Penalty Notice was issued correctly.

The fact that there is no bin within the immediate vicinity is not considered by Wirral Council to be a valid defence in relation to a littering offence. The legislation relating to a littering offence states that a person is guilty of an offence if that person throws down, drops or otherwise deposits any litter in any place to which this section applies and leaves anything whatsoever in such circumstances as to cause, or contribute to, or tend to lead to, the defacement by litter of any place to which this section applies.

Whilst it may be a defence under this legislation that litter was left by or with the prior consent of the owner of the land, it is not a requirement for the principal litter authority to obtain explicit authorisation from the land owner before issuing a fixed penalty to those that they believe have committed an offence. As an authorised officer of the local principle litter authority (Wirral Council) Officer Stott does have the legal authority to enforce this legislation on relevant land within Wirral.

A Fixed Penalty Notice is issued to offenders to give them the opportunity to discharge liability for prosecution. You can discharge your liability to prosecution for the offence of littering under section 87 of the Environmental Enforcement Act 1990 by payment of the Fixed Penalty Notice or request a court date to have your case heard in the magistrate’s court to appeal the littering offence.

We have a Zero Tolerance approach towards those people who commit littering offences. Our officers patrol public places in areas where littering is prevalent and are instructed to issue a Fixed Penalty Notice once they have witnessed a littering act. They have no discretion in this matter and are working to our directions. This ensures they are consistent towards people when issuing a penalty notice.

I can now offer you the 10 days from the date of this email to pay the reduced rate of £60 or additional time to pay the standard rate of £80 in the form of an extension, please let me know if you would like to take up this offer in order to discharge your liability for this offence. If you believe yourself not guilty of this offence, you will be given an opportunity to make that plea before a court of law.

If you feel aggrieved in any way with how Wirral Council have dealt with this matter then please refer to our complaints procedure. Please note that this will not delay the process and should the fixed penalty remain unpaid, your case will proceed to the courts.

Kindest regards,

Any idea of how the law stands on stalking and covert filming??? does that not fall foul of human rights/civil liberties?

 

 

 

By that logic we should have "No murdering" signs on display everywhere and all houses should have a "No breaking and entering" sign on them.

Murder is illegal and the legality of murder is common knowledge....however, smoking tobacco is NOT illegal...you dafty

And my point re lack of bins was to say that the council will not take responsibility for providing bins on private land so how can they issue fines on private land?

I don't see how "There's a lack of bins" can be an argument at all. If there's nowhere to dispose of a cigarette butt, don't smoke there. A cigarette butt should never be thrown into a normal bin anyway as it poses a fire risk.

 

And I don't really see how you can say "fining without warning". It's the law, the fact that the law exists is the warning.

If thats the case then there should be 'no smoking' signs on display,

smokers are demonised from all angles (and no, I am not a smoker, I did used to be).

..the act of smoking in public is not yet illegal,,,although it's not just smoking,

I found a article online where someone in wales got hit with the fine for some lettuce falling from her McD's wrap

(no idea of the outcome)

also a cleaner of a pub who, after discovering the pub had been broken into

smoked a cigarette in the pub car park whilst waiting for the police to arrive

only to have a litter enforcement person jump out on her when she discarded her cigarette

(again this was on private property/land and she had the support of the landlord...again outcome unknown) .

..if you're fine with the idea of people going around videoing joe public

in the hope to extort money out of them for losing their grip of a till receipt,

dropping a bus ticket..whatever, then thats your choice,

however I'm personally pretty uncomfortable with it.

..does the money go into council funds?.

..no...it's a private firm called Kingdom Ltd who have done a deal with the council

and pay them a percent, also I read that these patrol wardens are on commission

Hi thanks for your comments, I will certainly let you know how it goes, I'm not hopeful to be honest but we'll see. The issue I have is it could be argued that there's a lack of bins..but as it's a supermarket carpark then it's not the councils responsibility to make sure bins are in place so how can they issue fines in all fairness, also they should give people the opportunity to correct their error knowing that the humiliation of being stopped in public is lesson enough

I get the impression, from reading online that smokers are targeted, I'd even go as far as saying smokers are 'stalked' by these people which is wrong. If I spot one in a supermarket car park again I will go into the store and complain the the manager that their customers are being harassed...which then I assume/hope will lead to the jobsworth being asked to move on (which I might film on my phone...not to post online just to dish out the same treatment . )

As for who owns the land (if it isn't sainsburys) I'm finding hard to find out,,,,but I do feel there's a moral issue here...whilst litter is bad and I can't justify that at all, stalking and fining without warning is just not on in my opinion

I think it's very poor they have started to loiter outside of supermarkets.

.often I just chuck my till receipt on top of my shopping trolly which sometimes gets swept away with the wind when i exit the store..

..this I assume would be an offence,

it seems to me that these 'companies' working on behalf of local councils have simply found a good source of revenue.

..personally the way I'm feeling is that the uniformed lady is the one that has committed the offence here,

loitering with intent to extort money, harassment...erm..

..I'm sure I can think of some other things.

..oh and claiming authority on land that is not in there jurisdiction

...can I fine them??...haha

cheers for the replys...according to the gov website they can't fine people on private land with out permission

Issuing FPNs on private land

You must have permission from the landowner or occupier before you enter private land to issue FPNs.

This applies to privately owned land which the public can access.

The only exception is for waste collection authorities investigating fly-tipping. They can enter private land without permission.

(I can't seem to post the direct link!?!)

dx yeh I'm sure, I did the appeal via the council form on their website today, tho it is a private company (kingdom ltd, I gather) who do it on behalf of the council....much of this feels like scaring people into paying ott fines much like the parking fines

thank you king....yes I have emails from Sainsburys HO who actually sound pretty disgusted about it too..and rightfully so given that it's their customers getting harassed and fleeced

Hi

My son was walking through sainsburys car park smoking a roll up

and absently mindedly dropped it on the floor (he knows he's a very naughty boy etc)

then from no where pops up a woman in uniform armed with a camera

telling him he'd been filmed littering which is an offence and he is to be fined £60 to be paid within 11 days

or it goes up to £80 or court

Whilst I agree littering is bad.

..nothing worse then takeaway wrappers blowing all over the place

or having to tip toe through dog dirt in the park but I've never had in issue with cigarette butts..

..but yes..litter is litter & he did a naughty thing

...my issue is not with that, on reading the government guidelines for these 'litter enforcement officers'

it seems to state that a person should be given the opportunity to pick up their litter.

..but I suppose thats the up to the officer and on reading they get some kinda commission for their fines,

unlikely they'll be letting people off...

.so my other issue is the car park is private property shared with sainsburys, homebase, argos & McMucks.

..NOT council land..

.the gov website also states that they are not permitted to issue fines on private property,

even if used by the public without permission off the landowner.

I contacted sainsburys to enquire why they have allowed their customers to be

intimidated, humiliated by uniformed people claiming to be council workers

loitering outside their store entrance armed with CCTV filming their customers!! Disgusting:-x!!!

However, sainsburys HO don't seem too happy about it either

and they contacted my local store who have assured me that they had no idea of what was happening in their car park

and they are looking into it for me.

...now I'm wondering if this fine inflicted on my son (a student and forever skint) will stick

...of course i want to get him out of paying it.

..I have done the online appeal thing to raise my concerns with the council on his behalf.

..has anyone had success arguing the toss about fines on private land???

Thanks