Hi everyone I have an update: Council have now recalled the debt which is at least good news, they received a battering email adressed to the ceo on Monday am focused around the legitamacy of the bailiff charges, which they would have had a seriously hard time challenging.... without you guys we would have struggled (if been ale at all) to acheive this and i am so grateful to you & everyone here who has contributed to this thread all for your help. Tingy has been an absolute superstar and has gone above and beyond in helping us. Truly grateful to have got the bailiffs off our back, my oh won't have to go out for hours because she doesnt want to be incase of a knock at the door. thank you so much. The reply was flat though, and I havent finished with them, they say all charges have been taken off the account but they havent deducted the amounts retained by the bailiff against our arrears so i think it's time to drop them a little reply tomorrow.

Thanks again Tingy you have been so helpful. I will maintain all our payments will be made to the council with all correspondence to ceo. I think the bailiff already have what is due to them, in the scheme of the intial order value it's not a vast amount of money that they have retained but the principle of the overcharging and the fact that both they and the council deem them legitimate still gets my hackles up, I can't imagine how many people out there would have had to make even greater scrifices to cover payments of these and not come here. The money that they have retained in my case would now actually take a good chunk out of our remaining outstanding balance. will hopefully have something drawn up tomorrow to send out to both bailiff and council.

Sneaky up the door I think, although looking back at the dates on their letter they were supposedly a consecutive saturday & sunday in August, we would have definately noticed any hand delivered correspondence and don't have any record here, so who knows. My car was on the drive when they visited with Van on December 21st. I may be speculating when i say the reason for no levy was becuase the value of the car if sold at auction clearly would not have cleared the value of debt at that time, who knows? i will be writing to them monday to challenge the levy. And thanks pt for the levy/removal info too, we're learning more and more as we go along but the curve is steep.

Hi guys thanks for all the input it is really appreciated. can anyone categorically confirm with example that this van & levy cannot be applied? We have signed no WP, have received no details of goods levied on or anything from the bailiff Tingy you have pm

I have just read your post, absolutely disgusting and you have very good grounds for complaint there. I really hope you get a decent response, the council will accept payments through the website as our council did and they do keep their bailiffs aware of payment made against the liability. But they will probably side with the bailiff on their charges and tell you that you're still liable for them. If your charges have ramped up with van/levy then you'll probably need to raise the same questions as i do regarding their legitimacy and reasonableness, that's my next step i just need rock solid confirmation on it to back up my concerns.

Hi all, Since the last comms we have now received a response back from the council head of finance, albeit not what we were hoping for and it’s quite a meaty one with much “you said/we say” using quotes from my letters with responses. The bailiffs, chief exec, revnues and recovery are all cc’d in. I’ll bullet point some of the specifics because it’s lengthy. Let’s start with the Good: The liability balance now just tips £100 after our payments over xmas The Bad: We have one from prior year outstanding for £260 that has been bought to our attention for which they want to take attachment of earnings, is it possible to avoid this and pay by instalments instead? Council will not recall current year from Bailiff as they say this will make them liable to indemnify the Bailiff for the fees ‘legitimately’ incurred. And advise us to make payments to the bailiff not the council. They will not investigate Bailiff charging as they see them as legitimate and that we are liable for them. At the time of writing the council have confirmed that of earlier payments made direct to the bailiff that some have been taken against their charges, but not all charges have been paid yet. It is claimed we entered into an agreement with the Bailiff that we would pay from July £xxx per month and because we didn’t maintain this agreement further action was taken. We have nothing in writing to confirm this. It was a telephone conversation between my OH and the bailiff at the time of the first/second visit and we signed nothing to that effect, they just closed the call by saying it needs clearing by December. We can go through bailiffs own internal procedure to complain about their charges As the point recurring throughout our complaint and basis of requesting debt was taken back is around the legitimacy of the charges can anyone absolutely confirm the following as I really would like to go back to both Bailiff and council on this: Is it absolutely certain there is no law that a van and levy charge cannot be applied on the same day? There is a Schedule 5 Regulation 45(2)(b) on reverse of council correspondence that states the following: for the attendance with a vehicle with a view to removal of goods (where, following the levy, goods are not removed) - Reasonable costs and fees incurred...... is £150 reasonable? I'm not so sure. Can someone clarify what does levying distress actually mean? and what is the legal position regarding the make up of this fee? Other than schedule 5 % calculations Any help, as always, massively appreciated guys

That is wonderful thanks so much, we are so grateful for all your help. I will update as soon as the response comes in.

Hi Tingy I was hoping you'd read All the communications have been sent to Cheif Exec with Revenues dept cc'd, I'm not at all surpirised to have received no response yet due to the holidays but thought it would be good to have something to follow up with if we havent a response by the first working day back, especially after the letter you kindly wrote and our action of payments that we promised in it.

Hi, Firstly I hope everyone had a nice xmas and happy new year to you all To keep this thread up to date... we have not received a response from the council over the christmas period but we have managed to reduce the balance with them to what i think wiil be somewhere between £300-£400. I followed up the initial email with details of the online council receipts and that i looked forward to their confirmnation of the correspondence. hopefully the council will see the effort we are making with the payments made over christmas, and that our proposal to clear the remaining balance by end of March in 3 installments is reasonable. So starting the new year a little anxiously as we really would like something back from the council early this week because the bailiffs are supposedly making that 'collection' visit in the first week of Jan. Would anyone have any idea's about how i communicate a 'push' to the council for a response if I do not receive one by close of play Tuesday?

That's interesting, so a notice of seizure is more an official document rather than their standard letter with hand scrawled 'total owed' figure? I sent off the above to the council with what i think is a decent payment proposal that will clear everything in time for the new CT year so I'm looking forward to their response....allbeit nervously Two came last week, when I spoke to Mr x on the phone afterwards he tried to sound as if he hardly remembered where he had been, and it was his colleage who spoke to my wife through the letterbox, I am so proud of her for not letting them in. I didnt challenge him technically on anything as I now know it's all best in writing Will keep you all posted and once again thank you all for your kind help

Once again thank you so much, I'll let you you what communication comes back as soon as.

What's your thinking then Tingy? wait their response and if they refuse to take back get further charge breakdown from rundles and say we have no alternative but to go through a form N1 (something i have seen quoted in other threads)? Is it worth requesting further breakdown from Rundle in the meantime anyway asking why hand delivered was £217 more than their preivois correspondence, just to have it ready?

there is absolutely no way the value of our car would cover the debt, charges an any auction fees etc.

Absolutely fantastic thank you Tingy, if someone can clarify if the Levy/Van vee can be charged on the same day then we will proceed with the email and hard copy in the post tomorrow. Once again thank you so much for your help

Fristly Tingy, thank you so much for that letter it is massively appreciated and really helps clarify in my mind what I want to say but coulnd't find the right way to convey. hallowitch,ploddertom here are the dated charges Aug 7 - 1st Visit £24.50 Aug 8 - 2nd Visit £18,00 Aug 31 - levy fee £67.00 Aug 31 - Attendance/Van £150.00 Last confirmed balance with Council was £1109.36 (we paid £150 direct online around that time so unsure if this was included), Council acknowledge in their letter refusing my proposal that rundle have so far charged £262 for their 'work' on my case and that in each payment i have made to rundle that a portion is retained by the bailiff. We have never received a listed inventory of goods that they have levied on, allthough i suspect if now asked for my car will be on it. We have only ever received what looks to be a standard letter 'ATTENDANCE NOTICE THE COLLECTION OF GOODS'. The total balance due is hand written and the 2nd one we were given weds 15th when they attended the balance magically jumped £217 from the confirmed balance on th detailled charges letter. Coincidentally £217 being the same value as their charges on the visit 31 Aug (Van/Levy). In my letter to the council i guess it's worth highlighting this. Thanks everyone for your help

I wrote all letters and posted them out to which I received the following replies: The charges from Bailiff came back as follows Debt £1529 (debt +liability order) 1st Visit £24.50 2nd Visit £18,00 Levy fee £67.00 Attendanec/Van £150.00 Card payment £1.00 Card payment £1.00 Card payment £1.00 outstanding amount £1250 The council weren’t as cooperative as I’d hoped and dismissed my payment proposal, they confirmed that of my £542 paid to Rundle £420 has gone against my council account. which means rundles have kept back £122 to date, my balance at the council was £1109. they also stated that I must only deal with Bailiff’s direct as i had been given plenty of oppurtunity etc. etc. After sending out the letters I made one payment direct to the council of £150, so that balance should now hopefully be £959. In between being able to respond to the Bailiff with my payment proposal that i offered the council the Bailiff arrived weds in a van saying they had come to collect. My OH didn’t open the door but spoke through the letterbox and told him we had made a payment, he said there was no record and he would be coming back in 48hrs to collect goods and he WILL collect, the car and basically everything else we have, and if our goods aren’t to the value of the debt they will add further charges, auction fees and all sorts. To top it off the o/s balance now apparently stands at £1467.26 (hand scribbled on their 'attendance notice to clear goods' letter through the door) so they have added another £217 of charges without detailing them. I think all they have is my car registration as it was parked on the drive but gave no other documents, only their standard 'attendance notice the clearance of goods. Our second sonce this started. I spoke to bailiff on the phone explaining that I understand he is doing his job etc and also that we aren’t flatly refusing to pay but merely looking for a viable solution within our means. I was told he has to collect no matter what and if I call the office they will only direct me back to him for arrangement, then he said he would give us until 6th Jan because it’s Christmas… imagine how touched I was! But he will be back on 6th Jan if whether he hears from me or not (will be interesting to see if they try another £217 worth of charges!) I really don't want to pay these people any more money as the will only net payments against the outrageous charges. Could anyone best advise how we should proceed? 1, If say I can pay a chunk of around £500 by 6th Jan, which is looking very likely 2. Or if for some miraculous reason I can raise £959 and pay council that direct through website any help is massively appreciated, our 2 year old now puts her fingers to her lips and says shhh when there is a knock on the door, it's a heart sinking reminder of the situation we are in and why we're making every effort to clear it and move on from this.

I have drafted two letters, one to the bailiff and one to the council, am i on the right track here? what I'm aiming for is the council to take back the debt Bailiff: Dear Mr xxxxx With reference to you recent communication on the above account, We were surprised to hear that you have sent requests for payment as our last correspondence from you was dated 9th August and we have been making paymets via the automated service. To get a better understanding of the account can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges applied. This includes: a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee. b - the reason for the fee. c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged. d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were certifiied at. e - the date of the Certification. This is not a Subject Access Request and I understand that under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10 and that You are obliged to provide this information. We require this information in writing within 14 days. Yours faithfully xxxxxxxxxxxxx　 　 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------　 　 To the Council Re: xxxxxxxxxx I understand xxxxxxxxx Council has appointed Rundle & Co to recover my Council Tax Liability arrears for 2010. We recently received a letter from Rundle & Co stating that we had failed to respond to their requests for payment yet since initial contact we have received no additional correspondence and have so far paid £xxx against the account. we understand some Bailiff fees will apply but believe there are some discrepancies, Civic Office staff informed us today that the original liability order was for £xxxx, yet Rundle & Co’s initial requested was full Payment of £xxxx. Rundle and Co have also stated in their latest correspondence that should we fail to contact them then they will return the liability order and the Council may consider applying to have us committed to prison, apply a charging order, or declare us bankrupt. This is most distressing as we are not at any point refusing to pay this debt. To this effect I have today written to Rundle & Co requesting an itemised statement of account (please see enclosed copy) that clearly shows what charges have been added and what they are for, Civic Offices confirm our balance as being £xxxx, yet I have checked with Rundle & Co website claims the debt as £xxxx indicating another disconnect between our payments and the balances between Civic office and Rundle & Co balance. Due to the discrepancies on the account I propose we make our payments direct to Hertsmere Borough Council offices and wish to continue to do so until the account is clear. Due to our circumstances we are unable to pay this in one payment, however I advocate a payment schedule of 5 months at £xxx p/m being paid direct to the Council Offices starting on 26/11/2010 until 31/03/2011 followed by 9 months at £xx from April as we move into the 2011 council tax year be paid on the 31st of each month to cover the principle. I understand this may seem a long time but this is a realistic offer that is affordable to us and will allow me to pay future bills issued for Council Tax without them falling into arrears. A greater amount would cause me real and actual By and large hardship. We will provide a full breakdown of income and expenditure to this effect should you require and our personal preference is payment by Standing Order. It should be noted again that we are not at any point refusing to pay this debt but only asking for a fair payment period considering my circumstances. I hope the above meets your approval and I look forward to your timely reply by letter. Yours faithfully,

Thanks so much guys, do i mention in my letter that until i receive full breakdown of costs that i will be copying the chief exec and in the meantime will be making payment to the council direct through the website? or is that just a waste of ink?

This is great thanks PT, OH just called the council and they gave her all the details, they know how much we have been paying, but what is odd is that our liability was for £1439 but rundles were chasing £1789...£350 more...hmmm! Lady at council also said we were silly not to be contacting Rundles is it worth me writing to rundles asking for a breakdown of their costs as the council couldnt tell my OH what they were. This should give us a 14 day period where they can't contact us is that correct? thanks everyone for the help, I've been trying to read up as much as possible but I have a long working/travelling day, all my evenings have been spent on this fantastic site trying to find out more & more

Hi there the Council are refusing to help at all, my wife went in the offices this morning and was flatly told not to speak to them as the matter is out of their hands. Flustered and upset she left without asking how much the original order was for, what the balance was, or what charges had been applied. Could anyone advise on how we should proceed? who do we write to? and what shuold we say? I'm concious that we need to communicate by Friday to Rundles, and would need to sned something registered out tomorrow.. Thanks everyone

Hi there thanks for all the responses everyone, is there any reason why i should pay the council and not the bailiffs, as i can't help thinking that thye will come down very heavy handedly if i don't pay them anymore, my wife will be petrified if they turn up and as much as i can tell her to be strong i have a feeling she will be scared into doing what they say. so far..... First liability order was £1789 - (will get confirmation from council for this weds) No entry to home yet No Levy on goods/car yet We have not signed any documents either thanks again everyone

Thank you everyone, we havent been paying the council but have been making monthly payments via the bailiff's automated service. I will be making another at the end of this week which will be last of the 7 day response time we have been given. I know this won't be the response they want from us, we just would like to know how best to approach this without having them visit us, My wife will be living at home on her days off in fear of a knock on the door.

Hello there, first post and i am hoping someone can help me here. History: My Wife and I received a letter in August for a liability order against us for unpaid council tax, total outstanding £1789 (eek!). We were pushed into a payment plan that although we could afford one of at the time £289 per month we have since come to the realisation that it is just too much for us to pay each month. so far we have made payments totalling £539 of this debt and I have electronic receipt numbers noted. Today we received a letter with a big red heading stating "Bankrupcy, Charging Order or Committal to Prison" I write to you that if I do not hear from you within the next 7 days , I will be forced to return the liability order to the council with a report to indicate that you have failed to respond to my requests for payment (note: other than my payments through the automated service we have had no written communication from Bailiffs since 9th August or any other telephone comms since 10th August). The council will contact you to inform you of their next course of action which may be one of the following: -Apply to the court to have you committed to prision -if you are a homeowner, apply to the court for a charging order to be registered against your property ad ask the court to auction your home - we live in a rented house - commence court proceedings to have you declared bankrupt and have your assets, including your home, handed to the official receiver. Any of the above actions will add further, substantial costs to your bill. Yours faithfully We are very distressed and worried about this, and wondered if anyone here can help us on how we should proceed. How do we now communicate with the Bailiffs and/or council. we were told we had to pay all by January, i was hoping my annual bonus would come through in Jan and help us clear it by then but have since found out that my company will not be paying until March 2011 so no longer have that cushion to fall against. I am unable to borrow the money as my o/d is always near the limit, credit card virtually to the limit as well, a familiar story I'm sure. Many thanks for anyone reading, and if you can offer any help it would so very much appreciated.