oh Hil.... you are SOOOOOOOOO brave:o ..... well done!!!!! Was thinking of you!!! Am so pleased it wasnt as bad as you'd expected. Fairyx

nudge

ohhhhhh Noob... what fabulous news!!! C*O*N*G*R*A*T*U*L*A*T*I*O*N*S That put a smile on my face:grin:... yours is the last thread Ive read tonight before signing out! (perfect ending to another evening with the CAG family!) Bet you'll have sweet dreams SOOOOOOO pleased for you! Off to bed now... Nun nite Fairy x

Karnevil you really are an angel I have read hil00222's thread as advised and have searched and found relevant info regarding the Information Commissioners Office... all of which was VERY helpful! Thankyou ALL OF YOU who tirelessly respond to our... questions:confused:, grumbles:x, groans:-x ... you all have seemingly endless patience. The support and guidance that you consistently offer around the clock to each and every one of us is truly commendable!!! And I want to thank you all AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN Thankyou... Thankyou... Thankyou... A very proud Fairy xxx

Dear Hil, I had just read your entire thread and I do feel for you. I too am going down this road... with a court claim for non compliance with the Data Protection Act. Since issuing my claim at christmas, Abbey HAVE since sent all my statements. BUT... they are defending my claim because they dont see why they should have to pay my court costs!!! (which for me was £150!!! - so I definately want it back!) Mainly because they argue that they didnt FAIL to comply with my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) by using the same old arguement AGAIN that their filing system is NOT a relevant filing system. Anyway, the purpose of this post is to offer my words of support and to tell you that I will be thinking of you on Wednesday. I am terribly afraid of attending court and so feel very anxious for you! Even though I am sure it will be fine... but still - easier said than done ay!! What court are you attending??? Good luck Hil xxx Fairy x

Thats great news Gary! Thats one hurdle ay! Fairy x

Hi Gary, I seem to be following in your footsteps Might need to ask for your support and guidance seeing as you've already been there! Nothing worse than treading on untrodden ground! I take my hat off to you! Fairy

ahhhhhhh...... thanks Karnevil!! Thankfully I DID save it in word BUTI wrote a load of stuff after once I had copied and pasted it!! Never mind.... have managed to re post it above and abbreviated my additional comments. Please read Fairy x

FAIRY and ABBEY NATIONAL DEFENCE Unless otherwise indicated references to paragraph numbers are references to the numbered paragraphs in the Particulars of Claim issued on XXXXXXXX Paragraphs 1 and 2 are admitted. As to paragraph 3, it is admitted that the Claimant sent a Subject Access Request dated XX June 2006. The defendant paid the sum of £10 in accordance with section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998. Paragraph 4 is denied. The Defendant denies that it has failed to comply with the SAR. It has provided all the data which the Claimant is entitled to receive pursuant to the Act. Under section 7 of the Act the Claimant is only entitled to receive ‘personal data’. Pursuant to section 1 of the Act ‘personal data’ is defined (in so far as relevant) as: ‘’data which relate to a living individual who can be identified a) from those data, or b) from those data and other information which is in the possession of or is likely to come into the possession of the data controller………’’ Pursuant to section 1 of the Act ‘data’ is defined as follows: ‘’information which a) is being processed by means of equipment operating automatically in response to instructions given for that purpose; b) is recorded with the intention that it should be processed by means of such equipment; c) is recorded as part of a relevant filing system or with the intention that it should form part of a relevant filing system; or d) does not fall within paragraph (a), (b) or © but forms part of an accessible record as defined by section 68’’ Section 68 concerns health, educational and public records and therefore sub-section (d) is not relevant to the present proceedings. ‘’Relevant filing system’’ is defined as: ‘’any set of information relating to individuals to the extent that, although the information is not processed by means of equipment operating automatically in response to instructions given for that purposes, the set is structured, either by reference to individuals or by reference to criteria relating to individuals, in such a way that specific information relating to a particular individual is readily accessible’’ The Claimant’s SAR was made in relation to bank statements and information in relation to the charges levied in an account number XXXXXX held with the Defendant (‘’Account’’). The defendant keeps this information on its automated ‘’live’’ system for up to 18 months. In compliance with the SAR, and in accordance with sub-section (a) of the definition of ‘’data’’ under the Act, all relevant data stored on the ‘’live’’ system has been provided to the Claimant. After the 18 month period has elapsed, the Defendant transfers the information held on the live system onto microfiche. The microfiche is then stored and, if necessary, retrieved as follows: 10.1 It is stored in boxes covering a 2 month period (for example, January and February, or March and April). There are usually 4 boxes covering each 2 month period. 10.2 Each box contains a range of account numbers, such that (by way of example only) ‘’box 1’’ could cover account numbers 1-500 and ‘’box 2’’ account numbers 501-900. 10.3 In the circumstances, in order to search for microfiche dating back for a period of 4 years would require a member of the Defendant’s staff to check the fronts of 96 boxes to identify the relevant boxes containing microfiche records relating to the account, then search the contents of 24 different boxes identified and finally go through an average of 450 different accounts on the particular microfiche in order to locate the specific records of the individual account. 10.4 Each piece of microfiche contains the records of a number of accounts and there is a note on the fiche itself of the range of account numbers that it covers. 10.5 The microfiche in each box are stored in numerical order, although each box contains approximately between 8,000-9,000 pieces of microfiche. The member of staff searching for or retrieving the microfiche has to check through the boxes manually to find the relevant information sought. 10.6 Once the correct microfiche has been identified, the member of staff has to put it into the fiche reading machine and then manually find the correct account number. Once the correct account details have been located the information is then printed onto paper. This process has to be repeated for each piece of microfiche retrieved from each relevant box. Accordingly, the manual microfiche storage and retrieval operations do not fall within the definition of ‘’relevant filing system’’, such that the information stored as microfiche does not fall within the definition of ‘’data’’ and is not covered by the provisions of the Act. The records are not stored in a manner broadly comparable with computerised records: they are not sufficiently structured nor readily accessible, they would have to be retrieved manually at great length and cost to the Defendant. In the premises, in not providing such information as is stored on the microfiche, the Defendant has not failed fully to comply with the SAR nor is it in breach of any of its obligations pursuant to the Act. It is denied that the Claimant has suffered loss, as claimed or at all. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief from the Defendant. STATEMENT OF TRUTH ******************************************** Can someone tell me…. Am I right in thinking that the above means that a member of Abbey staff would have to search the front of some 96 boxes to find the relevant 24 boxes that contained somewhere within ‘my account’ information??? And would this member of staff then have to manually sort through 8,000-9,000 microfiche in EACH of these 24 boxes?Thats a staggering 216,000 microfiche And once the 24 microfiche relevant to my account could be identified, would this member of staff THEN have to put each one of these 24 microfiche into the fiche reading machine and search through approx 450 different account numbers on each microfiche!... in total that’s 10,800 different account numbers. And THEN am I right in thinking that then this member of staff could print off all relevant account information onto paper????? If I have understood this correctly… then Abbey is right… that is almost impossible!! But yet SOMEONE (a super human being by the sounds of it!!!) managed to do all this for me in just: 4 days A rather speechless Fairy!

:eek: OH MODERATORS PLEASE HELP!!!! :eek: I just tried to post a message that has taken me almost TWO HOURS to type... when I clicked submit, it asked for my log on details again. On entering those details, the screen went blank and my message appeared lost with a fresh blank message box ready for me to begin writing!!!! PLEASE PLEASE see if you can find it!!!! It was a copy of Abbeys defence to my claim. Fingers crossed, everything crossed!!!!!!! Fairy

For everyones info and interest. I recently filed a claim with the courts regarding Abbeys failure to send me the 6 years worth of statements that I requested with my original Subject Access Request back in June 2006! The County Court claim was for Abbey to send me my statements. And Abbey DID send me my statements ONCE ordered to do so by a judge!!!! I haven't read Abbeys defence properly because I am quite stunned to have even received a defence!! Basically, my understanding is that Abbey have filed in their defence a long arguement stating that they have NOT failed to comply with my original S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)'s request (together with the microfiche arguement!) and lots of reasons as to why this expectation of them to supply 6 years worth of statements is unreasonable!! They talk of their filing system and contest that we refer to it as a 'relevant filing system' and state how many hundreds of thousands of files they would have to go through to send me MINE!!! or indeed YOU yours!!! Stating that not only is this request unreasonable but near on IMPOSSIBLE!!! BUT THEY HAVE SENT ME ALL MY STATEMENTS FOR THE LAST 6 YEARS!!!! ALL IN ONE ENVELOPE AT THE BEGINNING OF JANUARY!!! SO IT WASNT THAT IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE THEY HAVE DONE IT!!!! AND I MIGHT ADD.. WITHIN NINE DAYS OF THE COURT TELLING THEM TO!!!! (and thats including a couple of Sundays plus allowing for postage!!! AND over New Year!!! so assuming they were closed for business on New Years Day - they did it in just FOUR days!!!!) What they go on to say is that they deny that I have suffered any loss and therefore stating that I am NOT entitled to the relief claimed or any relief from Abbey!!!! Im wondering if this is a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing??? Did the person who filed this defence on Abbeys behalf to my claim not know that someone else from Abbey had already sent me my statements???!!! Confused!!! :confused: Has anyone else received similar???? Fairy

Hi Karnevil, Need to communicate with you... have received a defence from Abbey!!! Am really baffled!!! Will try to PM you now. Fairy x

Hi all, Can anyone explain in Leymans terms the difference between all the spreadsheets that vampiress has kindly done for us??? Obviously I know that I personally am looking at the ones re Reclaiming Bank Charges but there are still several options.... 1, 2, 3a and 3b. I dont understand all the different terms and am worried I may use the wrong spreadsheet! I am aiming to reclaim all the charges incurred as a result of: Charges for clearing VISA payments and Direct Debits whilst overdrawn Unpaid cheque charges (not sure if Im entitled to claim for 'charges for an overdraft that has not been authorised' - where I have gone over my overdraft limit) Obviously I would like to reclaim these charges together with the interest incurred since these charges were applied. But which spreadsheet????????? Can anyone advise/help please?? Fairy

:o OH NO!!! :o Karnevil :o your mailbox is full!!! :o

Thank you to everyone who has posted and offered their advice/support, it is very much appreciated. I am sorry I dont post more often on other peoples threads, only I dont feel in a position to offer any advice!!!...when Im struggling so much to understand it all myself. *T*H*A*N*K*Y*O*U* *A*L*L* xxx

Karnevil, Did you name the official Data Controller in the POC ? Sorry??? POC??? Back to basics Karnevil, what little brain I have is shot to pieces! Reference your PM to me, do I write and tell the courts now that abbey have now sent me my statements??? Or do I wait for Abbeys defence??? (deadline for thier defence is 27 Jan) Who will send me Abbeys defence??? Abbey? The Court? Being that I dont actually understand what Abbey are defending at this stage.... what do I do if they DONT file a defence??? HELP PLEASE x

Forgive me for starting a new thread but I can't find ME!! What hope have I got when I can't even find my own thread???!!! Can anyone find me please??? Deb

cross1217... Actually my dates are the same as yours. Claim submitted on 28th, deemed served on the 30th, but courts have given Abbey til 15th Jan to respond. But now we just sit and wait hey! I estimate my claim to be about £2.5K but without the statements it could be more. Will watch your case with particular interest. Goodluck cross1217 and Happy New Year to you too

Update... Received 'Notice of Issue' from the County Court today stating that Abbey have until 15 January 2007 to respond. Atleast the judge didnt throw it out! Phew... Anyone at the same stage??? Deb

Anyone?? Anything?? ...Karnevil my friend??

Hi everyone, I hope you all had a very merry christmas... Seeing as business has returned to normal for a few days, I took myself down to Epsom County Court and filed my N1 to enforce Abbey to comply with the Data Protection Act and send me my statements!! However, whilst I walked in with confidence, it was soon shot to pieces when the court clerk told me that this wasn't the normal format that they were used to for these bank charge claims and that people were approaching the courts with a number of different forms in order to reclaim their bank charges!!! That was the first knock... The next knock was... Then they (probably just routinely!) pointed out that I may not win and that the judge may possibly not rule in my favour! And that the judge might decide that he doesnt like the format (N1) by which I submitted my claim and therefore may throw it out! They charged me a fee of £150 for filing the N1 under 'claiming something other than money'. Which I was happy to pay... but the clerk also said the judge may rule the case in my favour but NOT ask Abbey to pay the court costs! Basically there were lots of negatives and lots of doubt as to whether I correctly submitted my claim (meaning on the correct form). Even when I asked them what happens next they said they wasnt sure because people dont normally fill out this form. That aside, they were quite happy to accept my claim and more than happy to take my money! Just wasnt very reassuring thats all... Has anyone else been told the same?? Do you think this is normal?? And if this way (N1) is not the norm.... then what is everyone else doing?? Deb

ok now I am really confused... I posted the above message and whilst waiting for someone to respond, I am continuing to read, read and read but it has only confused me more! I went into the BANK TEMPLATES to have another read about calculating the interest plus all the court paperwork and have just read this.......... ******************************************************* 5. Money Claim On-Line (MCOL) Particulars of Claim STOP! If you have not already sent a full schedule of charges and overdraft interest to your bank -- then -- stop! - take no further action until you have remedied this. ************************************************* The last letter I sent to Abbey last week was the LBA re: non compliance of the DPA! This letter giving them a final 7 days to respond to my original SAR and forward all bank statements for the 6 years requested. This letter states that if no response within 7 days that I will apply to the County Courts to enforce compliance! This statement that I copied and pasted above states in BOLD that I should NOT be approaching the courts until I have sent a list of charges and overdraft interest to my bank THE ABBEY!!! Which I havent done because I dont have a list of those charges because the Abbey have not sent the statements!!!!!!! So somewhere along the line I have misunderstood!!! This means I should NOT be applying to the courts with a list of estimated charges yet??? So therefore, what SHOULD I be doing??? Also, I noticed the N1 form asks that you attach copies of the charges incurred... again, how can you do this if it is all based on an estimate??? Really, really confused!! Karnevil... where are you... HELP please. Dont want to give up but cant fight what I dont understand.

Hi All, Just trying to estimate what the Abbey owes me.... The Abbey have sent me 15 months worth of statements in total, during this period have randomly incurred a total of £430 in charges. Do I simply divide this sum by 15 and then multiply by 72??? eg. £430 (divided by) 15 (months) = £28.66 £28.66 x 72 (total months claimable) = £2063.52 Have no idea how to calculate the interest.... please help

Thank you Karnevil

Ok...this is where I chickened out last time! Im afraid to admit I don't understand what I need to do next... I know there are several different letters that need to be sent as well as approaching the courts... but I don't understand what order the letters need to be sent! Having sent my DPA non compliance LBA to Abbey giving them a final 7 days to comply with my original SAR, they have until this Tuesday to respond (which we know isn't going to happen!) so I want to be ready with my next letter... Can somebody please confirm the next step... This is what I THINK I need to do this coming Tuesday (if Abbey have not responded with all statements):- 1.) Apply to the county court to enforce compliance??? Is this the N1 form?? Do I do this NOW?? 2.) Also on Tuesday send the PRELIMINARY APPROACH FOR REPAYMENT to Abbey - stating an estimated amount that they owe me?? This letter gives Abbey 14 days to respond. 3.) Then after this 14 days if NO response from Abbey to the above letter (2.) then I need to send the LBA requesting repayment (estimate!!!)??. I am SO worried that I am goin to do things in the wrong order... Please advise Deb