I think we would consider the CA route. as the most important thing is to stop the racism thing. That is our number 1 priority. I might have said earlier that we may even consider giving away some of the PILON to get it dropped. We would not reveal this to her until we really need to, of course ! That said we must assume that the PILON is due and there is intrinsically linked to any attempt to negotiate. I am a bit dubious about our ability to qualify for having a lawyer present. I have read some information about that case (or a similar one) and the accusation was associated with an abuse claim which i think would be far more serious. Also the covert record might be tricky. my daughter is very nervous about that. I think the only way that would work would be if i set it up without her knowing (and that might be difficult). I'll think about it. She is worried that if the solicitor is savvy, he might ask about this before the meeting starts. She would not know (neither would I, come to think of it) what to do in that case. All said we might want to be ready to follow the UD route, since this is our priority issue. Does it sound reasonable ?

OK Bigred. I think I understand that point. Just because she has never mentioned GM, doesn't mean that she is not entitled to the dismissal decision (without prior warning). Put another way, if she thinks it is serious enough then she is entitled to opt for dismissal without warning regardless of whether she calls it GM or plain vanilla misconduct. Is this "about right" ? Thanks again. This is all good stuff.

Excellent point Elpulpo ! I suspect she will request it at her solicitors office anyway.... but we'll definitely look out for that one !

BTW, I really like the idea of using some of the text from the letter to parents. I think she will be shocked that we have that ! (a small moral victory perhaps in this turbulent sea).

OK. so nothing about following her own procedure ? (which is verbal warning, 1st written warning, 2nd written warning and finally dismissal). Forgive me, I am not questioning that your advice is good, rather that it has always been our opinion that any sort of warning would have led to a change of behaviour. I wonder if the immediate escalation to dismissal (without any prior warning) is material here ? If she saw that this was GM I can understand her jumping steps but she appears to be merely claiming misconduct. I am deliberately ignoring the pizza incident as a procedural infringement on the grounds of the previous entry.

I have started to prepare our appeal case. I intend to focus on 3 points. 1) The disciplinary process outlined in an amendment to her contract issued on 19 Oct 2009 was not adhered to. No warnings were issued in respect of these allegations or any other matter raised at the hearing. 2) The severity of the action taken in regard to the allegations. We intend to be dismissive of the "pizza incident" as it was only a discussion. No pizza was ever ordered and the interception of that conversation prevented any infringement and also prevented my daughter from having the opportunity to ask the owner for permission before placing and order (which she surely would have done) 3) No account of my daughters previously unblemished record appears to have been recognised when considering the process and subsequent action taken. Should she raise the PILON issue at the appeal or should that be dealt with seperately ? Finally, I feel that this is all starting to escalate a little out of control. At what point should we start talking about resolving our issues without the lawyers. It seems (as always) that they are likely to be the main beneficiary here. Any comments on either the appeal items, bringing the PILON issue into the appeal and/or negotiations to de-escalate? Should I

I think I get your point Bigred.

I think we are close to that Marie. First, my daughter did not record any details of the police call as she took the call on her mobile. I think it would be helpful to contact him and ask for details of the allegation (to understand whether she was claiming harassment or something else). A copy of the police report could then be presented to any potential employer in the event of a CRB check throwing out any issues. Also, my daughter has been approached by her previous employer offering her old job back (bit of a backward step but worth considering). May daughter has been open and honest with her about this case and she said she would be willing to help in any way. Maybe we could ask her to see what comes back on an Enhanced CRB check (even if we have to pay for it). We would then be able to make an informed decision about the timing of any legal involvement. This will help manage costs a bit. What do you think ?

I appreciate your candor Uncertain. I think we will continue with the appeal process. It's good to get some unbiased feedback.

Hi all, further to this case, my daughters employer (ex) issued a "newsletter to parents" earlier this week which is shown here (word for word). In light of this case, i would love to get you opinions on whether there is anything we can do in defense. If not , is there anything we can do to stop her publishing anything more. Letter reads.... "We have some news which will come as a surprise to many of you. Following several incidents over the past few months, the decision has been to dismiss last Thursday on the grounds of poor conduct and not complying with our policies and procedures. It has been a hard decision as she ran the nursery very professionally but there was another side to her, unknown to parents, which disrupted the atmosphere of the setting and seriously upset some of us." ..... our initial thoughts (considering her recent over-reactions) was that this could have been a lot worse but there are obviously a few things which concern us. Firstly, both alleged incidents happened on the same day and not over several months which i think is a gross inaccuracy and makes this statement very unfair at least. The owner is, of course, referring to the other points which she brought up at the hearing. None of which are relevant to this disciplinary action and none of which were highlighted as offences before that hearing. It is interesting that again she never uses the term "gross misconduct", which i think helps us to assert that the action taken was too harsh. Whilst she appears to make a compliment in the statement we are concerned about the statement .... "but there was another side to her, unknown to parents, which disrupted the atmosphere of the setting and seriously upset some of us.". On top of this, we are not aware that this incident upset anyone else, just her. We think that this gives the impression of being a worse situation that is really the case. Regarding my opening statement. Are there any actions we can take to have her issue a more fair representation. Something like unreconcilable differences ? and most of all to warn her about making further comments without sufficient proof or evidence. Again, at some point my daughter wants to answer these points to the parents with accurate information about the events. To do this she would have to hand something to them. We understand that this will not be possible until after this case is finished.

So, my learned friends the plot thickens. Last night we had a call from the local police to say that my daughters boss had made a complaint about her visit to hand deliver her appeal notice. My daughter explain what happened and the officer asked her if the owner had told her to stay away before she visited. Of course she had not. He then said that the owner had told him that her solicitor was dealing with this matter and that now she had made a complaint she should avoid going there. My daughter then told the police that the only reason she was there was to personally ensure this important and time sensitive document arrived safely and to collect some personal belongings (a scarf and hat which had been left there). She further told the police that she left as soon as she had threatened to call the police and that she was shocked at the over reaction. In respect to her solicitor, she advised the policeman that she had formally requested details of her legal advisor after the which she had refused to give and so there was no line of communication to that party. The police confirmed to my daughter that no offence had been committed but of course advised her not to go there in case she files a harassment claim. My daughter was quite comfortable about the advice and assured the officer that she does not intend to go there again. We have not yet received acknowledgement of receipt of her appeal but expect something any day now. The one good thing about her reporting my daughter to the police is that we now have good evidence that she delivered the appeal notice by hand and in time. Because she was avoiding taking the letter we were convinced she would try to claim that none had been received / or that it arrived after the deadline. It seems there is no fear of that now ! My daughter is going to drop off that "letter to parents" in a few minutes. I will post the actual words which appear to contain some inaccuracies which we think may be defamatory or at least unfair.....

I tend to agree, Uncertain. I like your suggestion about a follow up. I'll get working on that one. We'll mail that tomorrow. Should we suggest "5 working days to set up an appeal hearing or acknowledge the appeal letter" before submitting to an Employment Tribunal ?

Thank Elpulpo. I think that is good advice too. I think if I explain it that way she'll be fine with it.

Thanks Welsh. Whilst we could have used more time to prepare for the original hearing, not much prep was really needed. The hearing itself was another matter. The owner did not introduce her advisor and has not released any details of who that was. Although the allegations were restricted to 2 incidents, she brought up a number of other incidents (they were minuted) which were not related (no dates, no previous mention , no warnings). My daughter refused to answer any allegations other than those required by the disciplinary warning which was what I had briefed her on beforehand. I have a feeling she is going to try to pull the "you never appealed in time" card, but my daughter delivered the appeal by hand and that was witnessed by other staff members there. If she does, I think it will again play into our hands. But let's see. Does anyone know how she has to acknowledge / arrange the appeal hearing ?

Yes. The parents of children at the nursery are being quite supportive. Most know my daughter well and know that her dismissal is not linked to anything to do with the children, but the wording in the letter that was read to my daughter over the phone uses the word dismissed for misconduct (note again the lack of the use of the word "Gross") does not state that and so naturally some parents are worried that a child might have been involved. Personally I think this could backfire on her. We'll wait for the hard copy before we do anything but my daughter is considering going and handing out a leaflet to relieve any anxiety. Not sure about that one but I don't have the heart to tell her "NO" yet.