What we've learned from this experience ... - Children photograph the "out of order" ptt machine in order to challenge any inspector (as Old Codja advises) - children are advised that if a penalty fare is being issued to co-operate but not to pay the fine on the spot (which my daughter did in this case but was reimbursed on appeal) To add a more positive note ... my other young daughter was recently in the wrong carriage at a short station, doors didn't open and she ended up going two extra stops. She was very distressed because she was then travelling without a valid ticket for the return journey and had no money on her. Station staff and conductor on the train were really helfpul and reassuring and got her back to her stop. It restored our faith somewhat.

Just an update: my daughter did appeal and was successful because the train company could not show that the permit to travel machine was working at the time the fare was issued. Thanks for advice.

I do understand about it being a job and it can't be an easy one. But I question the way it is done. Unlike in other instances where a "crime" is deemed to have been committed, my understanding is that it is not up to the train companies to prove the passenger was trying to avoid paying - so the burden of proof is on the passenger. And every suspect, whether innocent or guilty is challenged in a very public place - which can be humiliating and distressing, especially for someone who is law abiding. And in our experience, they seem to go for the easy targets ie. young people and children. I have a friend who commutes daily from the same station who never buys a PTT - but always pays the fare on the train or at the other end and has never been questioned or put through this. Maybe he is just lucky! Thanks for all comments.

5p is fine - as far as I can tell the permit to travel is a way of showing where you got on the train. The guards on the train/ticket office staff always complain in my experience because they have to charge the full amount for the ticket and then refund the PTT amount? I think I read somewhere that if you can prove that you didn't have small change and so couldn't use the machines, then they can take that into consideration but this was not the case on this occasion. We will appeal because we know that she was not trying to avoid the fare - and at least will have the satisfaction of knowing there's been an administrative cost to them. Do they review CCTV footage as a matter of course when processing appeals? I can't believe that any adult in the vicinity (including other station staff) could fail to feel concerned about a young person being publicly put through a process which is causing considerable distress. Will report back on any success. Thanks for responses

The station is unmanned so only has a ptt machine which is out of order more than not. We had never noticed the penalty fare signs at the station but after this we checked and they are there. The trains also have the notices on them so she couldn't claim ignorance. She always purchases a ptt and pays the other end ... except this time because she assumed the machine was still down. She had to make the same journey a couple of days later and found the machine was out of order again. She was travelling into Canterbury. Thanks

My daughter was issued a penalty fare for travelling without a permit to travel. The station she travelled from has a permit to travel machine which is frequently out of order and in the past when this has happened she has been able to buy a ticket from the guard on the train or has ensured she paid when she got off the train. On this occasion the ptt machine had been out of order for several days and she boarded the train without purchasing one. She was stopped the other end and when she explained that the machine was out of order was told that it wasn't as they'd had others with ptt from this station that day. This was a genuine mistake on her part and she was not trying to avoid paying the fare. Is it worth appealing either on the grounds that the machine is so frequently out of order (and was again the day after this incident - do they fix it on days when they know they're going to be checking and then leave it the rest of the time)? Any help asap would be great - thanks