I don't need to provide exact details. An investigation was undertaken into me. During the investigation 3 people told clear lies (made up stories) This was documented and signed to say it was true. Following this i am put forward for disciplinary action. I have written proof that all 3 are telling lies. In the first his statement contradicts himself. It does not make sense and i have an email (from his line manager to him) confirming this to be a lie. The second I have a signed statement from the second individual some 6 months earlier where he details the truth. (Contradicting his later statement) The final one states he was in one location where i can prove he was at work some 50 miles away. My question is 'if someone is clearly lying to try to have a person dismissed is there anything i can do outside the company, within a court, before or after a disciplinary hearing, to prosecute that individual?'

I am wondering upon some action. There was an investigation done in which a number of individuals told blatent lies (which was recorded and signed to say true) I know i can raise this as a grievance but what can i do outside work? What court action can i raise where i can show 100% proof that they have lied?

Once the investigation is done you must receive all information which will include statements showing who accused you

Thanks andy, i have sent PM

Hearing tomorrow, any thoughts? They are still insisting that the manager who dealt with the formal stage be present at the appeal

I have an appeal hearing this week and am in dispute regarding its procedure I have asked for the appeal giving reason for appeal etc. I received a letter stating that procedures will be as follows:- 1. I am to present reasons why appeal raised. 2. Management to question me (if necessary) 3. Appeal chair and HR Adviser to question me (if necessary) 4. The manager who conducted the formal stage to respond to issues raised. 5. Me to question the manager who conducted the formal stage on his response (if necessary) 6. The appeal chair and HR Adviser to question the manager who conducted the formal stage on his response (if necessary). 7. If necessary, I and the manager who condfucted the formal stage to summarise their respective cases (without including any new information). 8. The appeal chair and HR Adviser to adjourn the grievance appeal hearing and reach a decision. I have responded to state that this is not in line with grievance procedures and that the appeal should be with a more senior manager who has the ability to change the decision. A HR advisor who takes notes and myself. I argued that the manager who held the formal stage has documented his decision and what he based his decision upon. He therefore should not be present. Furthermore I have stated that an appeal hearing is not the place for questioning between the formal stage manager and myself. Also it is not a place for any interrogation. Also they were outside the timeframe set down within the policy. The response was:- “In response to the points you have raised: Regarding the date of the appeal, your appeal was received on Monday 18th May and you requested that the appeal be dealt with at Corporate level, as you can appreciate, finding diary time with the appropriate level of manager (ie Assistant Director) within the timescales given does take some coordination, I did apologise in my letter that I had not been able to meet the 7 day deadline. I note your comments re setting a date by mutual agreement should it be necessary to go over the 7 days and should we be in this situation again will do this but was keen that I got the appeal in as soon as I could without any unnecessary delay. At appeal hearings it is necessary to have the manager who made the decision present to be able to answer questions about how he came to that decision; these questions are from both the panel and from your rep and you. The panel are independent and the Chair is someone who has the authority to review and change the original decision; I can assure you that there is no intention for anyone to be interrogated but for a hearing to be fair, each party should have the opportunity to put their case in order that the Chair can understand both parties points of view. You are requesting copies of any minutes taken/meeting records, I will need to speak to my colleague who was the adviser at the original hearing, however as your rep requested this to take place in your absence there will not be any formal minutes as such.” Can they insist that the manager who has already made his decision and documented his reasons be present at the appeal? Can they follow the procedures of XX questions XX etc. Can they introduce new evidence which was not documented for the formal stage?

wow 2 reponses in a day, I am not holding my breath for the appeal, it has already been said that the appeal would be declined. Which is why i forced it to the director of the county council as opposed to the chief fire officer. However the breach of contract went the same route and was denied at the county council director level mid last year (after he had heard my case and then after the appeal hearing contacted members of staff in the fire service (without my knowledge) to get futher information which they provided incorrectly (Blatent lies) (Which i was therefore not able to point out before he made his decision!))

Thanks Heb, i was wondering if anyone was going to repond to my posting. What is your solicitor doing in respect of breach of contract? The solicitor has written to them giving 28 days notice before action. A response was received some 40 days later saying "my client would wish if at all possible to negotiate an amicable settlement in this matter and accepts that some payment is due to your client" They have also asked me to clarify some facts ref. out of pocket expenses which i have just responded with evidence. Have you spoken with your union officials regarding this matter - what have they said? The unions are fully involved and are amazed how many policies and laws are being breached. Their view is to take the cases all the way. (Constructive dismissal, breach of contract in relation to no house, breach of contract in relation to grievance policies, bullying / harrassment / victimisation / exclusion) Sick pay not being paid etc. etc. Why has it taken so long for your grievance to be heard when they have 28 days to respond and yet from your notes, they haven't met with you? Their response is that it is being investigated fully, the investigation is being undertaken by an outside department who responds to HQ. Their investigation was concluded in feb 2009 so i guess it is sat on someones desk at HQ. I have more than 30 seperate grievances in relation to the breaking of policy on their side which have not been addressed. I would strongly suggest that you speak with your union rep and solicitor immediately to find out what is going on. Let me know how you get on Had an formal grievance hearing where i presented sick notes stating "work related stress and depression caused by the fire brigade" and the works doctor which states "suffering from work related stress caused by bullying and harrassment at work during the previous 2 years" Hey ho, the grievance was turned down. I appealed and have been given a date for 11 days after my appeal request (policy is 7 days) They have said that the appeal will be chaired by director and the assistant chief who heard the formal grievance will be present to ask questions / present the case. I have gone back to say this is against policy and clarified that it will be heard by the director and he will only use information which was used within the formal stage. I have also posed the question that IF management do not accept MED 3's (Doctors sick note) or their own work doctor's assessment for me then is this the case for all 900 members of staff? No response as yet.

I work for a fire & Rescue authority, in started in june 2006 working retained (part time) and moved into wholetime (Full time) in 2007 – September. Since 2007 I have 2 contracts one full time and one part time – In essence I work around the clock 24/7. I submitted formal grievances in 2007 due to bullying and harassment which were ignored. (The group manager assured me he would look into them and did nothing) The grievances were regarding the way I was been treated by managers which included being verbally abused at work, in front of other staff, being excluded from work – fellow staff agreeing to start work 30 mins earlier so that they could leave before I arrive etc. During early 2008 the assistance chief fire officer (2nd in command) made the comment that it would be cheaper to find something in which they can sack me for and pay out at a tribunal than it would be to investigate bullying and harassment. (said infront of 2 union officials – one being the union chairman) In march I was told that I have to move stations and I was now posted 50 miles from my home and would need to provide evening and day cover. I put a grievance in which was looked into and agreed that they would supply a brigade house next to the station which I must move into. If I did not accept there was no position for me anymore. I accepted and was then told the house is not ready yet. I booked myself as sick in October 2008 due to work related stress and depression due to the continued bullying and harassment. Since then the house is still not ready so in December I handed the case to a solicitor for breach of contract. Namely the fire authority agreed a contract to supply a house and because one was not supplied it caused me out of pocket losses. The fire and rescue authority agreed in writing that they are in breach of contract and said “ how much?” I pushed the grievances for bullying and harassment which finally they started to investigate in october 2007. (I still have no response to them on this) Since October 2007 they have come up with allegations to me being:- Mileage claims (My claims for distances seem to be high. Approximately 5-8% I refused to mobilise in the appliance as there was not 1 competent firefighter on board. (The rules set down by government state that at least 1 competent firefighter must be on board) They have now reduced my pay to 50% (the policy states work related is paid for 12 months) They say they do not believe my doctor or the works doctor who have both assessed me. What can I do?