Thanks Cream70! Sadly I was not aware of how the process works and the fact that the onus of proof in this stage is on the EA / Council. I realise looking back that they could not have not possibly proven this - especially given the incorrect description of the driver recorded. Oh well - expensive lesson I suppose.

Bernie - This on behalf of a friend (who I'm afraid does not get around the internet much ). Just a note of thanks mate (this has been long pending, my apologies)!. I had followed your advice as pointed out by happyBoy several months ago and sent an informal rep. to TFL and till date not really heard back conclusively from TFL (they sent a ton of docs though, but not all). They have neither rejected my appeal nor have they sent a notice of cancellation OR any other follow up / reminder - Regards, Steve. The original PCN / notice recieved was over 12 months ago - am assuming this PCN is now as good as cancelled / dismissed?

Hey All. Just to let you all know - I have paid the 50 quid regardless of the fact that the CEO is outright lying regarding the PCN. Next time me-thinks, I will start carrying a cheap digital camera of my own in the car to get some facts recorded! Thanks CAGgers!!

I found this today: [5] 2005 Draft Revised Code of Practice on Parking Enforcement by the Association of London Government – Transport and Environment Committee states Service of Penalty Charge Notices section 59:- “A PCN must be served by fixing it to the vehicle or handing it to the driver (or person in charge of the vehicle) at the time and location of the observed contravention (s.66 RTA 1991). Except as noted below, a PCN cannot be served by post, even if the driver drives the vehicle away while the PCN is being produced. The exceptions to this are either if the attendant is prevented from serving the PCN in the normal way by violence or threats of violence (s.5 London Local Authorities Act 2000) or if the enforcement is taking place following observation by CCTV (see below). In cases where a PA is prevented from serving a PCN on street so it has to be served by post following violence or threats of violence, the attendant should make full notes of the incident and the nature if the intimidation in the pocket book”. (from: London Motorists Action Group - Content ) Can anybody confirm if the above reflects the latest / currently in force regulation regarding validity of PCN's if they are issued after the vehicle in question has driven away? I am pretty annoyed off at the CEO for lying and stating he had handed over the PCN - so am going to appeal to PATAS. Any suggestions on how to phrase the appeals letter? There are also discrepancies in the NoR sent by the council (first they say PCN attached to vehicle and next they claim it was handed to driver in person) etc. Many Thanks!

Hello! Does anyone have any experience of sending in a PCN challenge to PATAS when they believed the CEO had cooked up portions of thier notes in order to make the issuing of the PCN look legit? Any guidance appreciated since I can either pay 50 quid in the next few days or if I goto PATAS and still dont win, its then 100 GBP. Thanks.

I think its' on the 56th day (unless I am calculating incorrectly?) They claim they recieved my representation on the 29th Apr and I got the response from them on the 24th of June.

Thanks lamma! Guessing what you meant was that - unless the council can produce a photo with the PCN handed over / being handed over to the driver they have little to talk about? Does the fact that thier NoR has a contradictory (certainly ambiguous) set of statements about 'attached to vehicle' vs 'handed to person' - afford any cause for upholding the challenge? On another note: the 56 day rule, is that based on the date I recieve the NoR? I only just realised that I got the letter on the 56th or 57th day since the date the council claims they recieved my representations. However its postmarked 2 days earlier.

Hello! Well the much awaited NTO did arrive - and I challenged it and the closest box I could tick was 'The CEO was not prevented from serving the PCN'. Told the council that this lettter / notice was the first time I had ever heard of the alleged PCN (which is true). Few days ago have a recieved a challenge declined letter from the council and this is where it becomes a bit interesting: The letter first states that a PCN was issued and attached to my vehicle on date dd-mm-yyyy and at hh-mm time. Few lines later, (in response to my challenge that I am 100% certain no PCN was served to the person in charge of the car) - they write: We take the CEO notes to be accurate and true and as per those a PCN was handed to the driver of the car (this is directly conflicting with point 1 above). In the copy of the CEO notes attached, there is a (totally untrue!) remark that the driver took the PCN and drove away. The description of the driver is also interesting, describing the driver as with 'white skin' - which is a laugh as the driver is hardly white / fair skinned. Interestingly - as a gesture of 'goodwill' the council is now offering 50% discount if PCN is paid in next 14 days and not taken to PATAS. My question to the audience on this forum is what should I ideally do? It's tempting to end this to and fro and pay the reduced amount - however - the driver did NOT take the PCN and drive away. That bit is utter fabrication on part of the CEO. No PCN was ever served either on the car or to a person. If I do take this to PATAS - what can I offer them in evidence? Will it be a question of my word against the CEO's 'accurate and true' notes? Guidance appreciated!

Hey folks! Many thanks for all your inputs and advise. Will share what I recieve if/when I do indeed get something in the post.

@Jamberson - Thanks! I was not aware of the revised act of 2004. Well I suppose it's wait and watch for now. Under the revised legislation, if the council does pursue this - will it be a PCN I get first or an NtO? Just wondering wether I get asked to pay the full amount or the usual 50%?

@ green_and_mean: Granted - I did drive away - but I still had no change on me. But point well taken. More coins go into the car now.

Thanks Bernie! I was trying to get some clarity from the perspective of due process (based on what I read here ), the PATAS adjudicator ruled indicating that : an attempt to issue a PCN is an attempt physically to fix a completed PCN to the vehicle or to hand it to the person apparently in charge of the vehicle. Nothing prior to embarking on one of those physical actions (e.g. making notes, or even printing out the PCN) amounts to “an attempt to issue”. Also - as far as I know, being directly served via post can still be a possibility provided the CEO was a traffic policeman or a traffic warden - but not if he/she is a Local Authorty Parking Attendant. Just trying to see if this indeed applies to my situation as well or not? Cheers.

Hello All, Have had a pay and display related experience for the first time recently. Just wanted to seek the opinion of the more knowledgable folks on this forum on this matter .....the facts: 1. Parked in a empty space by road (street parking) and noticed it was pay and display - was short on change and knew there was a ATM within 100 meters or so around the corner from where I had parked. Also had buy some stuff so would have managed to obtain change as well. 2. Looked around the street to see if I could see a parking attendant - there was no one I could spot. 3. Left the car and went to the ATM, got the cash and realised the shop I needed to get to was further down the street than I had thought - would have taken me longer than the few mins I originally thought to get the change. 4. Decided to get back to the car and move - not wanting to chance it. 5. As I approached the car, noticed a parking attendant about 5 feet behind my car on the pavement - thought for a while that the parking attendant was actually interested in the car behind mine and only when I got next to my car did I realise it was actually my car he was interested in. 6. As I unlocked the car he looked up and asked if this was my car - I said yes it was, and I am just leaving please. As I was entering the car, he said that this was a pay and display parking area. 7. Started the car and drove away - all the while the parking attendant remained where he was, on the pavement behind my car. Not sure if he was still noting down details. Now my question is - should I be expecting some sort of PCN / NtO in the post? If yes, would this actually be a valid / enforceable PCN as neither was any notice placed on my car, nor was I handed anything myself? Should I indeed recieve a PCN / NtO in the post - is the correct legislation to refer to the TMA 2002 or something else? Any relevant sections therein that clarify due process for serving a PCN etc? Many thanks.

Bump!

Hello there! Someone I know was last year a victim of the ever popular Kidbrooke Park bus lane and promptly recived a TFL notice to pay up. Having some experience of these forums, I had pointed my friend to this site and it seems he went along and pretty much sent an informal appeal (via email) based on the post from Bernie_the_Bolt - now interestingly enough, TFL responded with all manner of documentation (as a formal response via post) - but did/could not address all the items as had been requested. Moreoever - no where in thier response did they comment on either the validity of the notice OR what future action my friend was supposed to take. Having waited a good few weeks, my friend once again emailed TFL with reference to the original PCN and subsequent response from TFL - asking what he should be doing - in response to which TFL - sent back the entire previous response (via post) with a line added to the cover letter stating 'our previous reponse clearly indicates what next action you may take' No where in this second letter as well did TFL mention wether my friend needed to pay or not. Subsequent to the 2nd letter from TFL - nothing further was ever heard or recieved in this regard. It's been a little more than 8 months now from the date of the original TFL notice - my question is - Is this PCN / notice still valid or should we treat it as having been dismissed? Regards, HappyBoy

Ceebe - will check on if the road is private or public. Would be even more aghast if they were doing this on a public road - at least my assumption is there might be some sort of claim / contract they (T&C PPC) might have in place to govern the parking on the road - but you never know. Will aim to post signage pics and details later today. Thanks everyone for all your quick responses till date!

Crem - thanks. Folks - for those of you who have more experience / knowledge of this topic (and ideally specific idea of Town & City Parking Pvt Ltd) - do you know what the typical sort of comms one should expect now? Also, how likely are they to requisition RK details from the DVLA to begin some sort of correspondence? Another observation I have made from reading through all the posts here is that there seems to be no fixed amount each company charges. They vary anywhere from 20/40 to 50/100 - not sure if this is location / locality dependent? Also - has there ever been a class-action / public interest litigation against these companies and their scare tactics - especially given the fact most of what they try and do is questionable?

Just a question - am very new to the 'Civil Penalty Notice' scenario. As suggested by Al27 - if 'civil penalty' is indeed unlawful, how are these PPC's being allowed to operate?

Thanks Lamma - just wanted to ensure: 1. If such a demand is legit in the first place? 2. If it is AND if I do have some sort of liability - can they claim any amount they see fit (50 / 100 etc.)? I will see if I can post images of the street and the signage etc. as well if that helps. Cheers.

Hello Everyone, My first ever notice / alleged ticket and hence my presence here on this forum. Must say this looks like a treasure mine of info and support. On to the details then.... Our car was parked on a street adjacent to a Cineworld (as were about a dozen more) and the side of the road where the cars were parked, did NOT have a double yellow line or any other form of notice / signage denoting parking restrictions. The opposite side of the road has a double yellow line. After about 2 hours, on returning to the car, there was a 'notice' stuck to the car (all the cars parked at that time I think) - this notice mentions the following: CIVIL PENALTY NOTICE Notice No. xx-xxxxxx Date:----------- Time: ------------ First Seen: ------------ Location: ------------ Contravention Code: for list of contravention codes, see reverse. Veh. Make:----------- Model:--------- Reg. No: ------------- Colour: -------- Road Fund Lic: ---------------- Expiry: --------- Issued official No: -------------- Signed: ---------- This vehicle was parked at the location stated at the specified time in breach of the terms and conditions advertised. A CIVIL PENALTY CHARGE OF GBP 100.00 IS NOW DUE. If payment is made within 10 days the charge will be reduced to 50.00 TOWN AND CITY PARKING LTD WARNING IT IS AN OFFENCE FOR ANY PERSON OTHER THAN THE DRIVER TO REMOVE THIS NOTICE. Please see inside for notice details. -------------------------- And the contravention code 'I' = Restricted Area. Having looked around the street a bit more (its a cul-de-sac), there is one notice and the enterance of the street on the 'opposite' side of the road, mentioning something about 'Authorised or Permit Holder parking only'. Not something one would typically see, since the side of the road where the sign is put up, has a double yellow line running along it. Any suggestion regarding the right course of action on this so called Civil Penalty Notice (CPN) for 50 Pounds please? Thanks.